Small SCADA Type Remote Question

[Birken Vogt]

Folks,

I don't know where else to post this so I am putting it here because I know some of you may do this sort of thing.

I need to remotely control filling of a water storage tank a couple of thousand feet. Mostly line of sight with some trees.

No wireline control is practical or else I would do it.

I need to remote two float switches, a medium level and a high level down to a couple of relays at the control point.

The control point has power but the tank has none so it would need to be solar with battery.

Filling and emptying time is many hours and consequence of overflow is minor so we do not need to have rapid or assured delivery of any individual message.

Got some suggestions for products that would work for this?

[kb4mdz]

I'll tell you what NOT to get; anything that runs in 27 MHz CB frequencies. Very good friend told me of one system, same application, and the firm that put it in, well, they don't seem to understand radio at all.

LOS, with some trees? Might be able to get away with some 900 MHz FHSS radios; non-licensed, kinda plug-n-play if you're radio & electronics literate.

I've seen company names like Intuicom.com, esteem.com, phoenixcontact.com and others. Zetron is still selling the 1708/1716 rtu's & 1700 controller, I think. Another company I've looked at on the web is Data Flow Systems (www.dataflowsys.com).

Cooper Industries has something called 'Elpro' which seem to be both digital and analog I/O transport.

MDS (formerly MIcrowave Data Systems, now gegridsolutions.com) has a thing called MDS NETio;
Automation Direct seems to be a big vendor;

Try asking in a couple forums for SCADA; this seems a common enough application.

Have fun shopping!

[rainbowpenguin]

MotoTRBO radios have a couple gpio lines on the accessory port that can be configured to automatically send telemetry messages to another station when activated/deactivated. The receiving station can then take the telemetry message and activate/deactivate an gpio line.

See here for a more through explanation -- http://cwh050.blogspot.com/2014/06/moto ... metry.html

[d119]

Seems to me that TRBO can handle basic SCADA stuff, telemetry inputs/outputs?

[Bill_G]

Welcome to relay logic. No need for remote control. Let relays turn it on/off automatically. Just interlock the high and low points on the res through the NO and NC points of the float switches. You can still get timer/delay relays, octal plugs, etc from Newark. Then it's just a matter of wiring it correctly, sizing the contactor for the pump correctly, and putting it in a box that you can get to that can take the weather.

[Bill_G]

If you have your heart set on manually controlling the pump, and you want something off the shelf, you can look at Toro irrigation controllers. Slightly overkill for your application, but just about anything would be since you just want to control one pump, not multiple sprinkler zones around a park, farm, or golf course.But, the concept is the same.

Or, you can take a page out of their book, and use a standard dtmf rcvr decoder to make/break a closure via your portable radio. It's DIY, and like the relays, you'll have to size the pump contactor correctly. Home Depot sells wireless gate controllers with optional solar kits that might be perfect for your application.

[fineshot1]

Way back when - we used to use a pair of motorola darcom 9000 cages for that. i still have one cage in storage

[Bigred]

I've always used Zetron's model 18. Add the RF engine of your choice. Hardest part is sizing the solar to run it. I have installed them as tank fill, remote gate controls, intrusion alarms etc. Works fine.

[Bill_G]

Ritron makes a simple Teleswitch intended for this kind of small application.

[Birken Vogt]

I've always used Zetron's model 18. Add the RF engine of your choice. Hardest part is sizing the solar to run it. I have installed them as tank fill, remote gate controls, intrusion alarms etc. Works fine.

I read the manual and it looks exactly like what I am wanting.

First off, what is the rough cost of the system? We are already a Zetron dealer.

What size is the actual unit? Do you put it inside a medium or large NEMA 4 enclosure or what?

As for radios, any suggestion on what would be useful for low consumption on the solar powered side?

Thanks

[Bill_G]

The model 18 is larger than a hardback best seller, needs an outdoor rated enclosure, plus room for the radio and the power supply. The Ritron Teleswitch has a solar option, comes in an outdoor rated box, has it's own transceiver, and is controlled by DTMF. Pretty simple box.

[Birken Vogt]

Bill, the Ritron Teleswitch looks like it is intended to be controlled by a hand held unit. Is there some option for both ends automated?

The controlling end is what I need to be waterproof. The controlled end is inside a climate controlled room.

Am I misunderstanding here?

[Bill_G]

Okay. So, the pump is at the control end where the power is. The tank is at the far end with no power. And all you want to do is transmit the high and low float switch closures wirelessly. In that case, you want the QuickTalk with four programmable inputs that can send out different DTMF based on the event closure. It talks to a Teleswitch that decodes the DTMF, and open or closes a relay based on your programming.

[Bigred]

For set ups using a model 18, always used a mid power mobile and never tried with say a portable or a smaller OEM type transceiver. Sitting idle it would consume around 5 watts of power and jump to 30-40 watts for that rare transmit (low power TX). Not too bad for a solar set up.

Bill G's suggestion of a Ritron Teleswitch would be more cost effective (forgot they started making those things again).

They are controlled by anything that will spit out DTMF but in this case using the Quick Talk to send a message with ANI on trigger would do the trick. Be aware that with this config there is no ack between units for positive data transmission, it's just a hail mary from the Quick Talk. You can program it though for multiple message repeats to make it more reliable. For pump/tank use turnaround speed is not a factor.

Also the Quick Talk runs a long time on internal batteries. This is done with a sleep mode. If you switch it for external 12 VDC input, the sleep mode is disabled and draws more power than with batteries although not a lot. If that is a problem and you can't get around it, the solar may have to be jiggered for 6 VDC operation and hooked directly to the battery terminals.

We have quite a few Ritron products out ( gate boxes, those 5W repeaters, Loudmouths, etc) and occasionally one becomes a headache, but for the most part their stuff has been playing non-stop for years. People grumble about Ritron quality. I'll let you decide.

[Birken Vogt]

Quality issues was one thing my partner noted when I told him about this setup. He has had some experience with these while I have had none.

Is there any way to set the receive unit up to indicate comm failure if it receives no messages after a set amount of time?

[Bill_G]

Quality issues was one thing my partner noted when I told him about this setup. He has had some experience with these while I have had none.

Is there any way to set the receive unit up to indicate comm failure if it receives no messages after a set amount of time?

Not that I'm aware of. You would have to do that externally with a timer on the pump line. Experiment with the time value, and roll your own notification method. Contingencies are where real master/slave SCADA systems come in. Ritron makes simple things. You could have this up and running, installed, with solar / batteries, for under five grand.

[Bill_G]

For set ups using a model 18, always used a mid power mobile and never tried with say a portable or a smaller OEM type transceiver. Sitting idle it would consume around 5 watts of power and jump to 30-40 watts for that rare transmit (low power TX). Not too bad for a solar set up.

Bill G's suggestion of a Ritron Teleswitch would be more cost effective (forgot they started making those things again).

They are controlled by anything that will spit out DTMF but in this case using the Quick Talk to send a message with ANI on trigger would do the trick. Be aware that with this config there is no ack between units for positive data transmission, it's just a hail mary from the Quick Talk. You can program it though for multiple message repeats to make it more reliable. For pump/tank use turnaround speed is not a factor.

Also the Quick Talk runs a long time on internal batteries. This is done with a sleep mode. If you switch it for external 12 VDC input, the sleep mode is disabled and draws more power than with batteries although not a lot. If that is a problem and you can't get around it, the solar may have to be jiggered for 6 VDC operation and hooked directly to the battery terminals.

We have quite a few Ritron products out ( gate boxes, those 5W repeaters, Loudmouths, etc) and occasionally one becomes a headache, but for the most part their stuff has been playing non-stop for years. People grumble about Ritron quality. I'll let you decide.

That have been a real cost saver for small agencies. Self install isn't difficult. Low learning curve. Quick ROI which makes the PW director happy.

[AxelFusco]

Hi...i am a new user here. As per my knowledge no need for remote control. Let relays turn it on/off automatically. Just interlock the high and low points on the res through the NO and NC points of the float switches. You can still get timer/delay relays, octal plugs, etc from Newark. Then it's just a matter of wiring it correctly, sizing the contactor for the pump correctly, and putting it in a box that you can get to that can take the weather.

[Bill_G]

I'm thinking you had a question, but the quote function blew up on your first post here. So, Welcome, and what can we answer for you Axel?