Syntor X drawer swap

[Prospect62]

Guys,

If I had a complete low band (T71VBJ7D04AK) Syntor X with what appears to be a 16-mode scanning Systems 90 control head, and I needed a complete VHF radio, could I just swap a random VHF drawer (T73VBJ7204BK) in place of the low band drawer and have a working radio?

My memory tells me it's not that simple with a Syntor X, but I wanted to know once and for all if it could be done. Obviously this will require finding someone to program the VHF EEPROM to my liking.

Any input is welcome.

[PETNRDX]

I don't think you could just swap the chassis and have the radio work unless both radios had been configured exactly the same.
Which is kind of unlikely.
If you had all of those parts, you could go thru and configure the cable and head to "match" the chassis you want to use.
As I recall there were hundreds of combinations, so you would have to make a bunch of changes.
But, if all you need is a couple of channels, no PL and no Scan, it *might* not be that difficult.
Time consuming to get it working, and WAY more time consuming the more channels/features you want to have function correctly.

[Prospect62]

Thanks for the information Steve. I was hoping for better news.

[Mike B]

First find the part numbers on your actual control head boards here:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/c ... op_cnthead

For example there are HLN4290 user select Non-Priority heads like this:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/photos/npx8.jpg
and standard mode scan heads like this:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/photos/mode8_s.jpg
These are very different.

You probably have a HLN4296 bank selector like this:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/photos/bank2.jpg

A low band personality board probably has special jumpers just for low band radios. So, even if the low band and VHF personality boards are the exact same model number:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/p ... ml#top_per
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/j ... l#top_jump
you cannot blindly copy the physical jumper settings of the low band personality board onto the VHF board. The jumpers for Scan Enable, Display Enable, Control Head Strobe, Input Strobe Enable and Output Strobe Disable will need to be copied on the VHF personality board (in order to work with the low band radio J1 cable and control heads correctly).

This is a detailed bit description for the programmable EEPROM:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/S ... _Plug.html
Many of these options require the correct control head and cable configuration to work. At least your cable configuration should already be correct for your heads. Depending on who/how your code plug programming is done, it helps to examine the already working low band code plug information (EEPROM bit values). The correct scan options and control head interface options will be easier to figure out this way and you don't have to start from scratch.

You can lookup other information here:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/indexx.html

[Prospect62]

Thank you very much Mike, I'm glad to have advice from an expert like you! I have some random fella I found on eBay doing my programming - I'm not too confident he knows as much as you do.

I suppose the wise thing to do is find a complete Syntor X VHF and THEN just get that programmed.

Thank you again, I will go over everything you posted and try to get a clearer picture of how it works.

[Mike B]

Well you never know who some random person might be! Experts like Andy Brinkley are still lurking out there.

When you purchase a complete working Syntor X its main cable wiring configuration, control head internal jumpering, radio drawer personality board jumpering and code plug options will all be correct (in harmony).

The Syntor X control head setup can be as simple as an old Systems 90 Syntor (before the X) clamshell (i.e. a dumb only one single mode line at one time grounded to select the radio mode number). However, the fancier Syntor X control heads use the cable mode wires as a parallel bi-directional data bus, with the radio drawer controlling the read/write data exchange through the cable wiring between the drawer and heads.
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/c ... ml#mselint

The control head circuit boards have special dedicated signal wires available between the drawer and head boards that other radio lines (both older System 90 and later System 9000 radios) do not have or support. It creates unique complexity when configuring the Syntor X control heads from scratch. At the very least you only need to understand this only if you are going to mess with control head boards/jumpering or cable wiring. The radio drawer jumpering and code plug programming only has to match the cable wiring and control head board jumpering.

The of course obsolete manuals for this special Syntor X wiring/configuration are:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/m ... tml#code9s

The 68P81110E93 Accessory Group Installation Instructions manual has a large fold out sheet with different cable wiring schematics just for different types of Syntor X control head boards (including the wiring configurations for different combinations of multiple control head boards). For trouble shooting purposes I showed some of the more common wiring options:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/c ... #xexamples

The later Systems 9000 control heads use a true microprocessor driven serial bi-directional data bus. This eliminated need for special main cable wiring for each head because it takes the different physical control heads functions/options and does it all with programming instead. It also reduced the number of wires in the Systems 9000 cables.

The Syntor X HHN4008, HHN4009 and HHN4010 control head housings hold up to two control head circuit boards in each housing. The difference is the rear housing connector combinations:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/syntorx/c ... l#xchsys90
See the three "back photo" links for the rear housing differences.

A Syntor X could have a mode select housing, then four non-priority select housings with 32 individual push buttons and then another siren PA housing. That is without other operator select PL/DPL operator select housings, DVP, etc. Imagine six of these housings all taking up your vehicle dash space. It is no wonder Motorola had to fix this with the later System 9000 (the new multiple internal microprocessors all on a serial bus take away all the multiple individual dedicated push buttons and even give greater features/control). Yet a single Syntor X housing can achieve a 32 mode control head with scanning. The ungainly Syntor X complexity comes about when you want operator select for more options. I guess most Syntor X radios came with simpler wiring and control head setups, which makes them easier to reuse with different radio drawers. Still easier is relative .

In your case the wiring complexity and control head circuit board jumpering is already correct for your existing cable/heads. Your challenge is just the personality board jumpering (if using a different drawer) and code plug head option programming.

So your plan on getting a VHF Syntor X only works if you get a complete radio with original cable and heads. If a seller slaps together random cable/head parts with some random radio drawer your challenge may become even greater to include cable wiring and control head circuit board jumpering, in addition to the drawer and code plug. It is easier if you find a reliable supplier that sells a complete working Syntor X radio.

[PETNRDX]

I agree with Mike. Those are SUCH a pain to match up all the Kibbles-N-Bits to get all the jumpers matched up.
The SYNTOR X Systems 90-S Book says something like 24 jumpers in just the two boards of the Channel Scan heads.
Add the channel select head board, cable, personality board, and there are a lot of permutations that could equal a lot of time troubleshooting.
I looked, and I have at least one T73VBJ in my pile. And its pretty likely that I have the control head stack somewhere also. Should be a channel select Sys 90-S, Channel Scan Sys-90-S and a user PL Sys-90-S setup.
The bad news is that it would be a couple months before I can even get to where those parts are.
I think you need to get one that is working, then get someone to program a couple channels.

[com501]

The 'bedsheet' in the config manual is probably the most important bit when assembling control head packages. I wore a couple of them out many years ago when I was building these. The stack in my POV was 32 inches tall, then I they came out with the X9000 and things got MUCH simpler.

[Prospect62]

OK then...so what you are saying is if I have a complete, original low band Syntor X...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350771560843?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

and I wanted to replace the low band chassis with a VHF high chassis...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-Syntor ... xyNThTd2HE

all I would have to be concerned with personality board jumpering and code plug head option programming, the latter of which SHOULD be adequately addressed by a knowledgeable programmer. Do I have that right? Then the jumpers for Scan Enable, Display Enable, Control Head Strobe, Input Strobe Enable and Output Strobe Disable will need to be copied on the VHF personality board to exactly what they are on the low band personality board, which is something I should be able to accomplish myself (have a just enough knowledge on the subject to be dangerous), correct?

Either way, still a lot of doing but not out of the realm of possibility.

Also, another question which I can't remember of I ever had adequately answered...can I buy a Securenet (VXJ) Syntor X and just have someone program a few conventional, non-Securenet frequencies and have it work normally?

Thanks for the help guys. It would seem that a conventional, VHF high Syntor X is the holy grail these days.

[com501]

The difference between the VBJ and the VXJ is the control cable (keyloader jack) and an option board. If the VXJ had Securenet, then jumpers should be checked.

[Andy Brinkley]

Well you never know who some random person might be! Experts like Andy Brinkley are still lurking out there.

I am truly honored to be called an "Expert" by who I consider the most knowledgeable person on the Syntors!!

As far as swapping control heads / cables / drawer units as they say - "it all depends".

For getting the program correct the R1801 is pretty dumb and just needs to know the type of channel select head (System 90 or rotary), number of channels and what System 90 cards are present. After that (as others have already mentioned) it is matching up the jumpers in the drawer unit to match the head configuration.

Let me know if I can assist.

[Jim202]

Have you ever considered dumping the Syntor X and stepping up to the Syntor XS9000?

The Syntor X9000 is a much easier radio to work with. You can actually program them over and over with your computer and not have to fight with PROMS or the third party boards that can be installed. They are fairly cheap and use the same control heads that the Spectra radios use. Control heads and control cables can be had fairly easy from a number of sources.

I use the Syntor X9000 on low band and VHF. I do have one of the UHF Syntor X9000 radios, but they are not as common as the low band or VHF versions. Manuals are available for downloading off the Internet.

[Prospect62]

Have you ever considered dumping the Syntor X and stepping up to the Syntor XS9000?

The whole intent of this is to provide a correct, working radio into a 1987 Plymouth Gran Fury police car restoration project. The car should have a Systems 90 Syntor X. There is one other type of radio that MIGHT be acceptable to me, the discerning restorer, but an X9000 ain't it. Amazingly, the county where this car was in service is STILL ON the conventional VHF radio system (and frequencies) that it used in 1987, so I though it would be very cool to have the car "hearing" transmissions at parades and shows. Otherwise I'd just stick a dummy Systems 90 head on the stack and call it a day, like 90% of other police car restorers do. I'm taking this one a step further, if I can...

Believe me, I'd do whatever I could to make it easier on myself but it just wouldn't be correct for the car.

Well you never know who some random person might be! Experts like Andy Brinkley are still lurking out there.

I am truly honored to be called an "Expert" by who I consider the most knowledgeable person on the Syntors!!

As far as swapping control heads / cables / drawer units as they say - "it all depends".

For getting the program correct the R1801 is pretty dumb and just needs to know the type of channel select head (System 90 or rotary), number of channels and what System 90 cards are present. After that (as others have already mentioned) it is matching up the jumpers in the drawer unit to match the head configuration.

Let me know if I can assist.

Another Syntor legend weighs in...

I truly appreciate the input from such knowledgeable folks. If I could just find a complete VHF Systems 90 Syntor X this would all be moot!
Andy I will sure do that if it does come down to me actually attempting this.

The difference between the VBJ and the VXJ is the control cable (keyloader jack) and an option board. If the VXJ had Securenet, then jumpers should be checked.

So...could a Securenet capable Syntor X be programmed with the Securenet option disabled and be used conventionally? If so, this may be a tremendously good thing for me.

[com501]

Yes, absolutely you can disable Securenet and re-jumper as necessary. Most secure capable radios where just that, 'capable', and never had the option board installed.

[Prospect62]

Yes, absolutely you can disable Securenet and re-jumper as necessary. Most secure capable radios where just that, 'capable', and never had the option board installed.

Really...

Can someone provide me with more in depth instructions for this? Is programming the EEPROM the same? What jumpers would need to be changed? Is there an encryption module that I can remove and use the radio as conventional with no other mods?

Mike, I read this thread...

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=51664

And it confused the daylights out of me. Then I read this one...

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9082

And got more confused.

This radio:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162036265146?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

I can get one of those HLN5244A DVP bypass boards (good luck) or I can modify the pins/cables. Seems like modifying the cables/pins is the easiest way? Do I have to pull anything out of the radio itself? Change jumpers? All of the above? Does moving jumpers require soldering? If so we can stick a fork in this right now, I'm not into it.

I guess it's not as simple as just telling the software "no encryption on this mode" during programming, is it?

Good grief, that would be too easy.

[Prospect62]

To make the following radio operate as a conventional radio:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162036265146?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

1.) Remove whichever Securenet interface board I have (since the radio is a T83 without a HHCH, I have to assume I don't have the soldered in one).
2.) Install JU8 jumper, maybe change JU2 or other jumpers depending on which personality board I have
3.) Don't bother connecting that external superfluous enclosure that used to house the Securenet circuit boards

Viola, non-Securenet VXJ Syntor X which I can have an orange label EEPROM programmed for and call it a day?

I had to type that out so I could make sense of it. Is it correct?

[Jim202]

Here is a link to a web site with some information that may help your project. I must have missed the information that this was a restoration project.

http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorol ... index.html

To the best of my knowledge, the PROM chips used to program these Syntor X radios are no longer available. That was why I mentioned the add on board that will allow programming the radio via a computer for the frequencies you may need. I forget who makes them. But that shouldn't be too hard to find.

Other than the control board, the guts of both the Syntor X and the Syntor X9000 are almost the same. People have swapped sections of the radios between both models. The rest of the radio parts are just about interchangeable.

One problem with these radios is the high current cable connection inside the radio. The connection is held together with a single screw and it often causes a poor connection. But if your not going to use the radio for transmitting, this should not be an issue.

The other issue is if this is a VHF radio, all the current frequencies have been narrow banded. Low band is not a problem, but you indicated you need a VHF radio. So the recovered audio on VHF will be low and you will probably have to turn the volume control way up.

[Andy Brinkley]

To the best of my knowledge, the PROM chips used to program these Syntor X radios are no longer available. That was why I mentioned the add on board that will allow programming the radio via a computer for the frequencies you may need. I forget who makes them. But that shouldn't be too hard to find.

Just to clarify the Signetics PROMS used in the original series Syntor (SRA series) have been NLA for about 20 years but there are several vendors (shameless plug for Brinkley Electronics http://brinkleyelectronics.com/adp/adp.htm) that manufacture adapter boards to utilize a standard EPROM or EEPROM in place of the PROM.

The orange plug in memory modules for the Syntor X radios contain an EEPROM and can be reprogrammed. The white label memory modules that were used in the early production Syntor X radios contained an MMI PROM and were not reprogrammable.

[Prospect62]

Yeah. This is a Syntor X with an reprogammable orange EEPROM I'm talking about. And they are available from various sources cheaply.

[Prospect62]

Ok, so I think I read that a T83 VXJ radio probably comes with a board that has no jumpers and can't be changed. I'm starting to remember why I gave up on this the last time.

[WB6NVH]

I meant to reply to this before the thread got too stale but I am already a bit late. You can certainly do this, you just need to make sure the jumpers in the radio drawer are correct for your accessories, that you have the cable and accessories wired correctly and a way to program the orange module.

I made up radios like this all the time before the X9000 became affordable, buying random heads and cables on eBay and even making hand-held control head models into conventional ones (only later locating all the HHCH accessories ) It is indeed a big hassle if you have to get all the pieces separately and make them work together, but it's just time consuming, not at all impossible. This is one reason the X9000 became so popular!

Some comments to add to the above:

Syntor (old SRA series) and Syntor X are two totally different radios with different accessories altogether, as you know. If the car you are restoring originally used a Syntor X, then stick with that and forget about the older SRA series Syntor. X series drawers and accessories are far easier to come by anyway.

You need the manuals first. The Systems 90*S accessory manual is separate from the Syntor X radio manual and is a paper fold-out thing. You may be able to get away with not having the radio drawer manual because I believe the jumper settings are on the web.

I recall the T83 series Syntor X's being somewhat strange when I looked in them, so stick with the T73 series. What I mean is that a few T83's I got from different sources had the old one-shot white label PROM modules in them, for example. I don't remember the VXJ being any different on the personality board from a VBJ but were I doing this now I would just stick to the VBJ type if I was unable to personally inspect the radio. T83's are a lot less common than T73's anyway.

So, let's say you have a T71VBJ with full Systems 90*S accessory set. You want to swap drawers with a T73VBJ. First you set the jumpers in the T73, per the manual, not by visual copying of the T71, for the accessory set you have and whatever else is appropriate. I am assuming the cable with the accessories matches them aready and they were together when you got them. That is the physical part.

Now you need to program the module. Suitcase programmers are hard to come by but some members here should be able to help. There is third party DOS software that you use with a 2816 eeprom burner, but it's very basic and does not account for the Systems 90 options such as operator select priority scan, multi PL and so forth. Note that the options are programmed in the code plug as well as requiring the jumper settings and head plug wiring.

If you have to make the correct cable out of another, this is the worst of the job. Those plastic colored plugs are getting very hard to come by and sorting out all the jumpers between plugs and so forth is mind numbing. Also, eBay sellers seem to think the cables are worth more than the radio.

Finally - - VHF high band Part 90 (includes law enforcement) systems should have been all narrowbanded years ago. These radios are not compatible although for receiving, they will still work with reduced audio recovery provided the frequencies are still a programmable number after the decimal point. Agencies in my area seem to have yet to have received the narrowbanding memo...