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bellersley
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Postby bellersley » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:59 am

I totally agree with the point of getting a scanner, but as said, there will always be those of us who demand the quality and ruggedness that only commercial grade gear can offer. New ham gear is much better quality, hopefully uniden catches up too.

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MTS2000des
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What radios do you own?: XTS2500, XTS5000, and MTS2000

Postby MTS2000des » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:52 am

I echo Batdude's comments...this is one of the most retarded debates...it isn't about what's technically better, what I like/you like...etc...

YOU CAN GO TO PRISON FOR PROGRAMMING TRUNKING RADIOS ON SYSTEMS WHICH YOU HAVE NO AUTHORIZATION ON, WETHER OR NOT YOU WANT TO TALK, HAVE TRANSMIT INHIBITED, ETC IS A MOOT POINT.

End of story.
The views here are my own and do not represent those of anyone else or the company, the boss, his wife, his dog or distant relatives.

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Postby Larry Page » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:01 pm

Wow...I was out of town for 4 days and things really got heated. I know that we are all hoping that this one will die and I am not a lawyer, but a lot of misconceptions and inaccuracies have been voiced in this thread, and I can provide a few solid clarifications to these discussions:
--It is perfectly legal under international treaty and FCC rules to monitor any radio transmission sent in the clear except for cell phone conversations, broadcast news feeds, and one other category of communication that I cannot bring to mind right now.
--It is illegal to monitor any transmission that the sender has taken the trouble to encrypt. Standard, open protocols, including frequency hopping and direct sequence spread spectrum, are not considered encrypted, nor are open protocol digital transmissions. Unless there has been some recent ruling to the contrary, unencrypted P25 is an open protocol.
--It is a violation of the rules to be in possession of a transmitter set up on a frequency for which you are not authorized to transmit. This has no bearing on whether you transmit or not. It is also a violation of the rules to program a transmitter for another party with any frequency for which that person has no authorization.
--Trunked transmissions do not automatically receive any protection from monitoring unless they are encrypted.
--And I know about this one, having worked in the past for a large company that several times got right in the middle of intellectual property issues: In order to be legally protectable (ible?), several specific rules and procedures must be followed. Material must be labeled in terms of who it belongs to and who it is to be kept from, and procedures must be in place detailing how the material is to be handled, stored, tracked, and destroyed. As an example, simply marking a document as "Confidential," as is commonly done, carries absolutely no force in a court that properly follows law and precedents.
--Finally, here is the big one: Once intellectual property or private information become public, they lose all protections and can never be private again.

Regards,
Larry Page
W5LEP
GROL

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MTS2000des
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What radios do you own?: XTS2500, XTS5000, and MTS2000

Postby MTS2000des » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:28 am

Larry Page wrote:Wow...I was out of town for 4 days and things really got heated. I know that we are all hoping that this one will die and I am not a lawyer, but a lot of misconceptions and inaccuracies have been voiced in this thread, and I can provide a few solid clarifications to these discussions:
--It is perfectly legal under international treaty and FCC rules to monitor any radio transmission sent in the clear except for cell phone conversations, broadcast news feeds, and one other category of communication that I cannot bring to mind right now.
--It is illegal to monitor any transmission that the sender has taken the trouble to encrypt. Standard, open protocols, including frequency hopping and direct sequence spread spectrum, are not considered encrypted, nor are open protocol digital transmissions. Unless there has been some recent ruling to the contrary, unencrypted P25 is an open protocol.
--It is a violation of the rules to be in possession of a transmitter set up on a frequency for which you are not authorized to transmit. This has no bearing on whether you transmit or not. It is also a violation of the rules to program a transmitter for another party with any frequency for which that person has no authorization.
--Trunked transmissions do not automatically receive any protection from monitoring unless they are encrypted.
--And I know about this one, having worked in the past for a large company that several times got right in the middle of intellectual property issues: In order to be legally protectable (ible?), several specific rules and procedures must be followed. Material must be labeled in terms of who it belongs to and who it is to be kept from, and procedures must be in place detailing how the material is to be handled, stored, tracked, and destroyed. As an example, simply marking a document as "Confidential," as is commonly done, carries absolutely no force in a court that properly follows law and precedents.
--Finally, here is the big one: Once intellectual property or private information become public, they lose all protections and can never be private again.

Regards,


Sorry, if "intellectual property becomes public they lose all protections"...is total BS. Tell that to Microsoft, the RIAA, Motorola, Adobe, et al. They all have successfully prosecuted, sued and won against many individuals and corporations who stole and distributed IP (including software, microcode, etc). I am certainly the last person on Earth who wants to defend corporate America but the law is the law, and the consequences of playing the game far outweigh the rewards. I'm sorry but the thought of getting arrested, or sued by a mega-corporation doesn't sound like a road to go down, "just to listen" to some radio traffic when I can buy a 500 dollar scanner that won't subject me to those possibilites.

You can deny it all day and play jailhouse lawyer. Fact remains, PEOPLE HAVE GONE TO PRISON FOR UNAUTHORIZED PROGRAMMING OF TRUNKING RADIOS
The views here are my own and do not represent those of anyone else or the company, the boss, his wife, his dog or distant relatives.

Larry Page
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Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 4:19 am

Postby Larry Page » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:04 am

One final clarification, then I am going to leave this topic. It is an important one, and especially in the context of this board, we need to get it as right as we can. I fully support the statement that monitoring is best done with a scanner. Regardless of the better performance, there is too much risk of accidentally transmitting or of losing a transmitter and having it fall into the hands of someone who either through ignorance or malice causes interference. But back to the discussion...

There are two fundamental ways to protect information, processes, etc.

The first is through patents, trademarks, service marks, and the like. The very nature of these protections is that whatever is being protected must be made public when it is registered. Then the burden of enforcing the ownership is on the owner, via licensing procedures, lawsuits (if necesary), or other civil legal actions. These result in protection actions we see in the civil courts.

The second way is to keep the information private. Doing this in an enforceable way requires proper labelling of the material, proper written and published procedures covering that marking, the way the material is to be handled and protected (usually also including procedures if the material is copied and whether it can be copied), and how it is to be destroyed or reclassified. You cannot simply take the approach of coming back after the fact and saying, "That was mine." If this type of material is stolen, the owner is free to pursue criminal action against the thief just the same as if any other valuable material was stolen. However...once the stolen material gets into the public domain, it is legally no longer protected, because the process has been broken and the presumption of secrecy is gone. And it would be foolish of the owner to presume otherwise, because he cannot know where all the material has been.

Software, whether RSS, radio firmware, repeater controller operating systems, or whatever, falls into the first category if it is properly registered and identified as protected. Trunking system keys fall into the second category. Whoever takes a system key without authorization has committed theft. If that person then sells the key or otherwise transfers it, he has transferred stolen property the same as selling a stolen radio. Prosecuting the receiver would depend on proving that the person who received it had a reasonable expectation that it was stolen. Once stolen, however, the information is considered to be in the public domain. If the system administrator wants to ensure the integrity of his operation, he has the responsibility to make whatever modifications are necessary to restore secure operation. The words that lawyers and judges use here are that "you cannot unring a bell."

Encryption keys fall into a different category. The FCC rules specifically state that you are not allowed to monitor the encrypted transmission of another.

I will repeat that trunked transmissions sent in the clear are provided no specific protection. This is true no matter how they are received. But remember, there are very clear rules concerning using intercepted radio transmissions to commit or facilitate the commission of any crime, and there are also very clear rules concerning revealing the contents of any intercepted transmissions to another person (or retransmitting them via another radio service) or concerning creating harmful interference to any radio service, public safety or otherwise. That's where most prosecutable cases arise.

None of this, of course, prevents a person or company from pursuing a frivolous or unsupportable lawsuit, perhaps hoping that they can simply outlast or outspend the plaintiff, or simply blow enough smoke to get a judgement in their own favor regardless of laws and precedents. The same can be true of criminal prosecutors who may have an axe to grind or who want to make a reputation for themselves.

So again...I support the comment, "get a scanner." If the sensitivity isn't good enough, connect it to a better antenna. If the audio isn't good enough, get headphones or rig up an external amp and speaker. But...we as individuals and as folks responsible for radio systems must understand the protections that are and are not provided through the various Parts of the Rules.

Regards,
Larry Page

W5LEP

GROL

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batdude
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..

Postby batdude » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:25 am

guys.

i agree with victor xray.

it's a dead horse.

there are several individuals who were/are in the middle of this pot of dog poop - and rehashing this stuff over and over is like picking a scab.

i was contacted by one of the individuals directly involved and kindly asked to edit/remove his name from the posts. I have complied with this request and edited a few of the above posts.

yes, i realize that this information is in the public domain - but it's one more "google" that can prevent a hit on someones name.

several of these guys are decent hard working people who were burned at the stake because of their role in this mess. it seems to me (insert legal opinion) that the real crime was the intent to defraud with the invoice generated by the fire chief - and the actual programming of the radios onto the state system... both of those individuals apparently got the largest serving of poo from the bucket.

what everyone doesn't realize are the thousands of dollars of attorney's fees that must be paid..... the ensuing personal financial ruin (think 2nd/3rd mortgages to keep the lawyer working)... etc etc etc.

i'm going to lock this thread, i don't think there is any more valid discussions to be had or points to be made.


doug
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