PR1500 vs XTS2500

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kb1ojh
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PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by kb1ojh »

Good Day,

I need some quick help. I recently discovered that a radio I purchased on eBay, which was listed as an XTS2500, was actually a PR1500. The model # on the tags on the back is for a PR1500 but the model # in the codeplug is that of an XTS2500 Model III. The serial number on the tags matches; the flashcode does not. It did have an "I've been flashed" sticker on it, so the flashcode not matching wasn't that alarming.

I contacted the seller and he informed me it is common practice for Motorola dealers to flash upgrade "same family" models to different model numbers. I find this very suspect as I've worked with Motorola radios for a while now and never seen this before. I think it is more likely he has an unauthorized copy of Depot CPS and forced a different codeplug into the radio.

If people could give me their opinions here, if they've ever heard of dealers doing this legitimately, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt, NM1B
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d119
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by d119 »

It is absolutely not common practice for Motorola dealers to "flash upgrade" radios from one model to the other. This is in fact strictly prohibited by Motorola and is considered an intellectual property violation as it is not something Motorola offers as an option to customers. It involves the use of software that is internal to Motorola and not for non-corporate consumption. If the customer wants to upgrade the radio to to a "higher-tier" unit, they buy a new radio and that's that. When it comes to my certainty about this, I am 100% sure.

If it's something like a feature upgrade that the existing radio supports via FLASHport upgrade, that's a different story, but if it involves a model number change, that's something that's being done "back door" and is a no-no in the eyes of Motorola. So don't for a second think any dealer/MR/PSP/MSS does this on the up and up. If they were caught doing that, you can bet it'd be the end of their relationship with Motorola and the beginning of a relationship with their legal department. The reasons are that it involves not only the use of internal-only software, but a loss of revenue to Motorola itself. The reason for the loss of revenue is that the procedure is to buy a higher-tier radio, not upgrade the lower-tier to the higher-tier using parts & internal-only software, so Motorola loses revenue on selling a new radio. Motorola also loses revenue on the fact that feature options and capabilities present in the "upgraded" radio were never paid for and licensed appropriately.

Your thoughts about unauthorized Depot CPS and forcing codeplugs are right on the money. It's likely that whomever did this then changed the serial number to match that of the tag on the back of the radio.

If you are using this radio for any life/safety type of work, I'd be screaming long and loud unless you've thoroughly gone through it with a fine tooth comb and are certain that you trust it. If it's for a hobbyist/amateur radio type of operation, it's really up to you to decide if you're satisfied with it.

The issue is that if you ever sent this radio in to Motorola for repair or service, you might not get back what you sent in.

There's no doubt you were sold something that was misrepresented.
com501
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by com501 »

You will DEFINITELY get back a radio matching the original model number, or nothing but a phone call from Motorola legal asking where you got it, and thanks for the donation. Any Motorola shop or person with any software licensing from Motorola caught doing this, will, as the first reply stated, have a long and unproductive relationship with Motorola Intellectual Property Rights attorneys.
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MTS2000des
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by MTS2000des »

sounds like a chop shop radio. If the seller clearly stated it was an XTS2500, than you are due either a refund or an XTS2500. If you paid with Paypal, you have a slam dunk case for an item not as described dispute. As others have said, it was clearly a hackjob- and if you were not made aware of this by the seller, than you have a good case.
The views here are my own and do not represent those of anyone else or the company, the boss, his wife, his dog or distant relatives.
Radio Crazy
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by Radio Crazy »

Send it back to the guy, get a refund and be done with it, then buy another real xts2500 make sure the model number and serial number match the rear tags.
kb1ojh
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by kb1ojh »

After going back and forth a few times he has agreed to let me return the radio. Thanks everyone for your help. I was pretty sure I knew what was going on here, but didn't want to call someone on something without knowing for sure. In all fairness it did function perfectly fine -- just caught flack from a system admin about it.

Thanks and 73,
Matt, NM1B
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escomm
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by escomm »

com501 wrote:You will DEFINITELY get back a radio matching the original model number, or nothing but a phone call from Motorola legal asking where you got it, and thanks for the donation. Any Motorola shop or person with any software licensing from Motorola caught doing this, will, as the first reply stated, have a long and unproductive relationship with Motorola Intellectual Property Rights attorneys.
Nonsense, stop spreading these baseless rumors. Customer will get a call from the depot asking for clarification on why the frame and guts don't match. It can be as simple as "we repaired the radio with a frame from a PR1500" and they may leave it at that. Motorola legal won't be making any phone calls, Motorola legal writes letters; and they have better things to do with their time. It's common for radios to be sent in with mismatched guts and frames, especially from self-maintainers. Can't tell you how many MTX838s have crossed my bench with MTS2000 model/flash info.
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escomm
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by escomm »

Radio Crazy wrote:Send it back to the guy, get a refund and be done with it, then buy another real xts2500 make sure the model number and serial number match the rear tags.
The XTS2500 and PR1500 use the same mainboards. One could make the argument a PR1500 is nothing more than an XTS2500 with a different front case and some bits in the codeplug rearranged.
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d119
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by d119 »

Eh but then how do you explain the fact that the radio's guts are saying it's an XTS2500, the radio's tag says it's a PR1500, and the serial numbers are the same from the radio to the tag. It proves that someone got in there and did something they shouldn't have.

I haven't ever seen a CBI Astro25... So "I bought a blank unit" doesn't work with me...

I would hazard a guess that the depot is either under-reporting these anomalies, or not reporting them at all. Remember, these radios being sent in are being serviced by a third party. Based on the sheer number of Astro25 hackjobs out there, and the fact that people are being extraordinarily tight-lipped about it, you can bet the community who's doing it is relatively small.

I think it all boils down to a case of "I don't want no problems, y'all" when it comes to these things. And as we've seen in the past, Motorola can be unpredictable at times so it's best not to stick things in the bear cage. We know what the real deal is with the radio, and Motorola isn't stupid either.

I don't think Motorola would be thrilled with one of their service shops swindling them out of profit with their own product, which is what this entire thread originated from - Do dealers routinely make model number changes to radios to upgrade them. Hell no they don't. And I don't think Motorola would sit around and do nothing if they found out that was going on - and again, that's what the OP and the response you quoted were primarily dealing with.

With all due respect, escomm, you do know what you're talking about when it comes to the product, unquestionably, but I don't think you can speak for the company when it comes to legal matters. Large or small.

I'm off my legal soapbox. I back the company - not the hackers.
Radio Crazy
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by Radio Crazy »

Eh but then how do you explain the fact that the radio's guts are saying it's an XTS2500, the radio's tag says it's a PR1500, and the serial numbers are the same from the radio to the tag. It proves that someone got in there and did something they shouldn't have.
If some one got in there and did something they should'ent have, then why not simply change the serial # to a 2500 and take the 1500 tags off? If thats possible,like the no tag guys selling radios.
akardam
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by akardam »

d119 wrote:I haven't ever seen a CBI Astro25... So "I bought a blank unit" doesn't work with me...
And I've never actually seen a Zebra, so people telling me that they've seen one doesn't work for me...

/snark

CBI does, in fact, exists in Astro25, and you'd need only to read the CPS help file to confirm that...
The CPS Help File wrote: The Controller Board Initialization Window

The Controller Board Initialization Window allows you to set up new Controller Board hardware for the radio.

Only one attempt is given to correctly enter the radio’s serial number! If the serial number is incorrectly entered, the controller board may become permanently dysfunctional. Only Motorola formatted serial numbers are accepted.
com501
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by com501 »

escomm wrote:
com501 wrote:You will DEFINITELY get back a radio matching the original model number, or nothing but a phone call from Motorola legal asking where you got it, and thanks for the donation. Any Motorola shop or person with any software licensing from Motorola caught doing this, will, as the first reply stated, have a long and unproductive relationship with Motorola Intellectual Property Rights attorneys.
Nonsense, stop spreading these baseless rumors. Customer will get a call from the depot asking for clarification on why the frame and guts don't match. It can be as simple as "we repaired the radio with a frame from a PR1500" and they may leave it at that. Motorola legal won't be making any phone calls, Motorola legal writes letters; and they have better things to do with their time. It's common for radios to be sent in with mismatched guts and frames, especially from self-maintainers. Can't tell you how many MTX838s have crossed my bench with MTS2000 model/flash info.
Having been on the receiving end of one of those phone calls from Motorola legal, and a subsequent letter from their attorneys, and subsequent to that the owner of the shop I was working for was sued and put out of business by Motorola, I can tell you it does happen. They DID return the radio, after all the legal action was done, and at the time, the radio was returned in its original as it left the factory configuration based on the serial number.

As a consequence, I have never f---ed with their legal department ever after, even though I wasn't the one they wanted. And FYI, the depot in Mexico can't even get real repairs done correctly most of the time any more, what makes you think they would even catch something like this?

Best to never send it in and not tempt fate....
kb1ojh
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by kb1ojh »

Radio Crazy wrote:If some one got in there and did something they should'ent have, then why not simply change the serial # to a 2500 and take the 1500 tags off? If thats possible,like the no tag guys selling radios.
A radio still looks better if it has tags. I specifically needed on that had them. As I said, when I received the radio I never checked the model number. I checked the serial in the codeplug against the serial on the tags. The fact that it had tags and the serial number matched, to me, meant it was legit. I have learned a lesson here.
akardam wrote:And FYI, the depot in Mexico can't even get real repairs done correctly most of the time any more, what makes you think they would even catch something like this?
In my experience they just send you a brand new radio with the same serial #. I can tell you that I sent an HT1250 full DTMF keypad into Mexirola. The model number was for limited keypad, but my friend bought it that way off eBay (and later bricked it when the VM he was running froze during a firmware update). I got back a new limited keypad model with a note informing / reminding me that the upgrade from limited to full keypad was more than just parts and also included software licensing. Go figure.
escomm wrote:Customer will get a call from the depot asking for clarification on why the frame and guts don't match.
Not sure which depot you are dealing with that they actually call you. I called them after I was waiting for a CDM1550 back for 6 weeks. They informed me there was an issue and they were waiting for me to call to check on the status before they continued. They said it was not standard policy for them to call -- they just change the status on MOL and expect me to check it and call them.
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d119
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by d119 »

akarsnark :P love you akardam [All units, all frequencies, respond code 3, possible uncontained snark on the loose...] [wow, this lets you put a lot of text in here... Very interesting. This could be useful in the future... Anyway, movin on'] wrote:
d119 wrote:I haven't ever seen a CBI Astro25... So "I bought a blank unit" doesn't work with me...
And I've never actually seen a Zebra, so people telling me that they've seen one doesn't work for me...

/snark

CBI does, in fact, exists in Astro25, and you'd need only to read the CPS help file to confirm that...
The CPS Help File wrote: The Controller Board Initialization Window

The Controller Board Initialization Window allows you to set up new Controller Board hardware for the radio.

Only one attempt is given to correctly enter the radio’s serial number! If the serial number is incorrectly entered, the controller board may become permanently dysfunctional. Only Motorola formatted serial numbers are accepted.
Well in that case, I stand wholly and totally corrected, and appreciate the correction at that. That's why I come here, to learn new things and share my knowledge. Even if it means sometimes my knowledge is wrong, and I have to suffer a swift correction as in this case. Touche, akardam! But seriously, thanks for the correction. :)
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n7maq
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by n7maq »

kb1ojh wrote:In my experience they just send you a brand new radio with the same serial #. I can tell you that I sent an HT1250 full DTMF keypad into Mexirola. The model number was for limited keypad, but my friend bought it that way off eBay (and later bricked it when the VM he was running froze during a firmware update). I got back a new limited keypad model with a note informing / reminding me that the upgrade from limited to full keypad was more than just parts and also included software licensing. Go figure.
The limited to full keypad on an HT1250 IS a filed upgrade, it is in the CPS. All that needs to be done is a new housing and checking the correct box in the CPS. I'm sure it's talked about in the service manual. They messed up on yours, if you still have the letter you might ask them why the "upgrade" is listed in a manual if you are not allowed to do it.

Here is the procedure from the service manual

3.7.7 DTMF Retrofit Kit Procedure (Optional Upgrade Procedure)
If you are performing an upgrade from a basic model to a DTMF model, replace the existing front
cover kit with kit number HLN9984 and follow the reassembly steps to reassemble the upgraded
radio. (See paragraph 3.7 for details about reassembly.)
To activate the retrofit using the radio software, follow these steps:
1. Start the Customer Programming Software (CPS).
2. Read the codeplug data by clicking on the READ icon in the menu bar, or by selecting READ
DEVICE in the pulldown menu.
3. Open the Radio Configuration dialog box. (See Figure 3-10.)




Jim
Last edited by n7maq on Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kb1ojh
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by kb1ojh »

n7maq wrote:
kb1ojh wrote:In my experience they just send you a brand new radio with the same serial #. I can tell you that I sent an HT1250 full DTMF keypad into Mexirola. The model number was for limited keypad, but my friend bought it that way off eBay (and later bricked it when the VM he was running froze during a firmware update). I got back a new limited keypad model with a note informing / reminding me that the upgrade from limited to full keypad was more than just parts and also included software licensing. Go figure.
The limited to full keypad on an HT1250 IS a filed upgrade, it is in the CPS. All that needs to be done is a new housing and checking the correct box in the CPS. I'm sure it's talked about in the service manual.
Jim
*shrug* Well, according to the note I received back with the radio, I am supposed to purchase a retro-fit / upgrade kit (not just a case and keypad) which includes fees for licensing of the upgraded radio. Funny part was I went to look up the part number they listed on the note and it wasn't in my price book. When I called parts ID they told me I'd have to talk to my account rep to get the price book added. So I ended up re-upgrading by buying the parts anyway since I couldn't purchase the kit. I'm quite sure I still have the note from them if I look for it.
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MTS2000des
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by MTS2000des »

d119 wrote:Eh but then how do you explain the fact that the radio's guts are saying it's an XTS2500, the radio's tag says it's a PR1500, and the serial numbers are the same from the radio to the tag. It proves that someone got in there and did something they shouldn't have.

I haven't ever seen a CBI Astro25... So "I bought a blank unit" doesn't work with me...

I would hazard a guess that the depot is either under-reporting these anomalies, or not reporting them at all. Remember, these radios being sent in are being serviced by a third party. Based on the sheer number of Astro25 hackjobs out there, and the fact that people are being extraordinarily tight-lipped about it, you can bet the community who's doing it is relatively small.

I think it all boils down to a case of "I don't want no problems, y'all" when it comes to these things. And as we've seen in the past, Motorola can be unpredictable at times so it's best not to stick things in the bear cage. We know what the real deal is with the radio, and Motorola isn't stupid either.

I don't think Motorola would be thrilled with one of their service shops swindling them out of profit with their own product, which is what this entire thread originated from - Do dealers routinely make model number changes to radios to upgrade them. Hell no they don't. And I don't think Motorola would sit around and do nothing if they found out that was going on - and again, that's what the OP and the response you quoted were primarily dealing with.

With all due respect, escomm, you do know what you're talking about when it comes to the product, unquestionably, but I don't think you can speak for the company when it comes to legal matters. Large or small.

I'm off my legal soapbox. I back the company - not the hackers.
at the end of the day, if you sell on Ebay, you should read the user agreement. Ebay/Paypal will pretty much rule in the buyer's favor for an item not as described case. We all know the PR1500/XTS2500 are as kissing cousins as the MTS2000 is to the MTX8000/838, but in Ebay/Paypal world it's simple as this:

you advertised A and sent B. Buyer did not expect or pay for B, either refund money or ship A.

the seller obviously knew this as they didn't want to have a claim filed and they would ultimately lose. And who knows what would happen if Ebay said send the item to Ebay for inspection, if the buyer alleges a VERO infringement, Ebay could create a world of hassle for the seller.

There are a ton of Astro 25 radios on Ebay with the "flashcode does not match the label". We all know legit flashes come with an "Ive been flashed" sticker and new flash label, so how many of these do you think are upgraded by non-approved means? Motorola knows by the s/n if a a flash was ordered or not. Most of the time they don't care but I have sent radios in to the depot and they come back with the original flashcode the radio was shipped with. So they DO notice.
The views here are my own and do not represent those of anyone else or the company, the boss, his wife, his dog or distant relatives.
kb1ojh
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by kb1ojh »

MTS2000des wrote:There are a ton of Astro 25 radios on Ebay with the "flashcode does not match the label". We all know legit flashes come with an "Ive been flashed" sticker and new flash label, so how many of these do you think are upgraded by non-approved means? Motorola knows by the s/n if a a flash was ordered or not. Most of the time they don't care but I have sent radios in to the depot and they come back with the original flashcode the radio was shipped with. So they DO notice.
I have had radios legitimately re-flashed that had the "I've been flashed" sticker but did not have an updated flashcode sticker, so I don't know if perhaps sometimes they don't send them or the dealer just didn't affix the new label. My understanding, however, is that the reason for the "I've been flashed" sticker is because the flashcode label won't match the codeplug.

You're supposed to provide the serial numbers, but there's actually no requirement that you use the flash on the serial numbers you listed, last time I checked. This is especially true recently with things like rebanding, where Motorola is providing refresh flash keys with hundreds or thousands of refreshes on them. Do you really think they are going to go back and update their database to show that all those radios were refreshed? To play devil's advocate, it is possible that they don't actually "notice" for many of these and instead just provide what the tags show.

I'm sure if you send them something bizarre enough though, they will take notice and you'll have some explaining to do.

-Matt
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MTS2000des
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by MTS2000des »

kb1ojh wrote:
MTS2000des wrote:There are a ton of Astro 25 radios on Ebay with the "flashcode does not match the label". We all know legit flashes come with an "Ive been flashed" sticker and new flash label, so how many of these do you think are upgraded by non-approved means? Motorola knows by the s/n if a a flash was ordered or not. Most of the time they don't care but I have sent radios in to the depot and they come back with the original flashcode the radio was shipped with. So they DO notice.
I have had radios legitimately re-flashed that had the "I've been flashed" sticker but did not have an updated flashcode sticker, so I don't know if perhaps sometimes they don't send them or the dealer just didn't affix the new label. My understanding, however, is that the reason for the "I've been flashed" sticker is because the flashcode label won't match the codeplug.

You're supposed to provide the serial numbers, but there's actually no requirement that you use the flash on the serial numbers you listed, last time I checked. This is especially true recently with things like rebanding, where Motorola is providing refresh flash keys with hundreds or thousands of refreshes on them. Do you really think they are going to go back and update their database to show that all those radios were refreshed? To play devil's advocate, it is possible that they don't actually "notice" for many of these and instead just provide what the tags show.

I'm sure if you send them something bizarre enough though, they will take notice and you'll have some explaining to do.

-Matt
You are correct but with rebanding these are usually old legacy radios like MTS2000 and MCS radios that have been OOP for years. Astro 25 stuff is (at least for now) current production, and they are more likely to "pay attention". They certainly know if a radio has been in to the depot for repair.
The views here are my own and do not represent those of anyone else or the company, the boss, his wife, his dog or distant relatives.
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Pj
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Re: PR1500 vs XTS2500

Post by Pj »

I think it depends on the roll of the dice these days, and the customer who is sending in the product. If its coming from a MSS or a government, prob not too much may be sent or looked at the other way. Small time customers or accounts with just a persons name may or may not get a little more scrutizied. This is just purely speculation, but seems plasuable based on accounts here and relayed to me.

My only story was back before the "IP lawsuit in LA" was with an ASTRO Saber that had a nice digital flash in it but was hacked to that LA_Rover codeplug. I think the XTS was a blip on the radar at this time. It developed a problem later in life and went to IL depot. Came back as a VSLEP/Conventional only radio despite having legit tags on it. I contacted Motorola and asked what was the deal and they said it didn't match etc. After supplying them with a codeplug of the radio, I sent it back and it came back as built from the factory (the disk that had the CP on it came back had a virus on it of all things...thanks Moto!)
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