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v.24 transport over ethernet

This forum is for discussions regarding System Infrastructure and Related Equipment. This includes but is not limited to repeaters, base stations, consoles, voters, Voice over IP, system design and implementation, and other related topics.

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celltech25
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v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:12 am

anyone got any suggestions on v.24 transport over Ethernet for a p25 voting system

have had the system in service for a few years and now one of the RAD SPS-3S modems has went bad and Motorola and the Vendor Rad Data no longer sales or supports these modems so there are no parts available so looking for another solution

these modem had a db25 port for the connection between the v.24 output of a astrotac reciver then the output went over Ethernet to a ptp cambium link to another modem then to the astrotac comparator

need something to replace the modems at each end

Was using a SPS-3s at the remote site and a FPS-8S at the main site

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:01 am

celltech25 wrote:anyone got any suggestions on v.24 transport over Ethernet for a p25 voting system

have had the system in service for a few years and now one of the RAD SPS-3S modems has went bad and Motorola and the Vendor Rad Data no longer sales or supports these modems so there are no parts available so looking for another solution

these modem had a db25 port for the connection between the v.24 output of a astrotac reciver then the output went over Ethernet to a ptp cambium link to another modem then to the astrotac comparator

need something to replace the modems at each end

Was using a SPS-3s at the remote site and a FPS-8S at the main site


You can do this easily with Cisco gear. Not sure w\ho your networking vendor is but on one system we are voting a remote site (p25 only) via v.24 over the internet. ~100ms of latency, but, if you have in house ethernet/links it should be way under that.

You can go AstroTac RX->Cisco->Ethernet->Cisco->Astrotac3000

Alex
(I do think there are some RAD boxes out there that also do this, as well as maybe DCB i hear good things about too).
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:18 am

Yeah alex we have the rad products in service now but they have quit

what cisco gear are you using

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:34 am

celltech25 wrote:Yeah alex we have the rad products in service now but they have quit

what cisco gear are you using


You can use almost anything that supports synchronous serial and whatever IP protocols you need to speak. If it's a private network and you want to stick with (cheap) equipment you can buy Cisco 1841's and HWIC-2SER cards, along with the right serial cable (I'll find the part number). The configuration of the boxes is pretty easy and plug and play. If your going over the internet you'll want to throw the connection through a vpn, etc.

If this is for a life safety type system (e.g. public safety grade) you will probably want to buy new equipment, examine redundancies, etc, but, the config of the equipment is pretty simple and it is a hands off solution.

Alex
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:31 pm

Yeah that would be great if you can get me those numbers for the cable

its on a closed PTP wireless network so no VPN needed

just need something to replace these rad boxes with

Im hoping rad will come up with the 2 parts I need to get this going again
,

but want to have an option ready need to get this stuff back on the air

so im assuming

astro tac rcvr v.24 port to cisco hwic-2ser then out the Ethernet port to the canopy ptp down the link, back to another hwic-2ser Ethernet then out the serial to the astrotac comparator port

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:20 pm

celltech25 wrote:Yeah that would be great if you can get me those numbers for the cable


CAB-SS-232FC

You will also need your favorite flavor of DB25->RJ45

Pinout:

RJ-45 / DB25
1 Blue / 17
2 Orange / 8
3 Black / 15
4 Red / 7
5 Green / 3
6 Yellow / 2
7 Brown / 5
8 Slate / 20

(Note: Colors above seem rather standard from mod adapt to mod adapt, but, make sure that it matches up to whatever you have in stock).

Then you plug one of the cables (they will be blue and annoyingly long...) into the mod adapt, the mod adapt in to the v.24 port.

Do your router config with your HWIC-2SER card...


astro tac rcvr v.24 port to cisco hwic-2ser then out the Ethernet port to the canopy ptp down the link, back to another hwic-2ser Ethernet then out the serial to the astrotac comparator port


Here's the down and dirty version:

Astro tac v.24 ->
Standard Ethernet Patch Cable (568B/568B RJ45's on both ends (you can use A too, but my point is straight through cable) ->
Mod Adapt ->
CAB-SS-232FC ->
HWIC-2SER ->
Cisco ISR Router ->
Ethernet ->
[insert image of cute puffy network cloud]
Ethernet ->
Cisco ISR Router ->
HWIC-2SER ->
CAB-SS-232FC ->
Ethernet Patch Cable (see note above) ->
Mr. Comparator

Note: I think you can use a whole bunch of different routers that support the HWIC-2SER cards.

Config - RTR A:

Code: Select all


pseudowire-class [name]
 encapsulation l2tpv3
 ip local interface [Whatever port your ethernet is on, e.g. FastEthernet0/0]

interface Serial0/0/0
 no ip address
 clock rate 9600
 xconnect [dest IP] 100 pw-class [name]



Config - RTR B:

Code: Select all

pseudowire-class [name]
 encapsulation l2tpv3
 ip local interface [Whatever port your ethernet is on, e.g. FastEthernet0/0]

interface Serial0/0
 no ip address
 clock rate 9600
 xconnect [dest ip] 100 pw-class [name]
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:52 am

Alex thanks for the info,

Heard from Rad they cant supply the parts to get me back running so down the cisco rode I go

I have one more and hopefully the last question

They list a HWIC-1SER and a HWIC-2SER

if I went with a 1861 and a HWIC-2SER at the main site and a 1861 with a HWIC-1SER at the remote sites

I would assume the 2 remote sites could both talk to the 1861 with the 2 port card

or would I need a separate router for each end

I would guess separate for each end would give more backup incase one router failed you wouldn't lose the whole system but just trying to save them some money of possible

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:31 am

celltech25 wrote:They list a HWIC-1SER and a HWIC-2SER
if I went with a 1861 and a HWIC-2SER at the main site and a 1861 with a HWIC-1SER at the remote sites
I would assume the 2 remote sites could both talk to the 1861 with the 2 port card


The cards are usually $20 a pop used, sometimes as much as $29 used. I'd buy the two port cards to keep everything consistent. If you are doing two receivers then yes, at the comparator you can use one card with two ports and have one port go to each side. You could put a larger ISR at the main site with the comparator for future expansion as well. That way you can put multiple hardware HWIC's in to it - they make the serial cards that support as much as 16 serial connections (synchronous) on one single card. If you buy a 2811 ISR and it has the processor oomph etc to support it - you could in theory put 4x16 serial port cards in it - getting you 64 v.24 ports which can go out to 64 distinct routers.

I would guess separate for each end would give more backup in case one router failed you wouldn't lose the whole system but just trying to save them some money of possible


Yup - you can do it that way. The Cisco stuff will also support redundancy I believe as well, you just have to learn to set it up and test it.

Again, I can't stress enough that you really should speak with an integrator if this is a system which people rely on for life safety where they can provide you new equipment with warranties and support the issues. I have not done this with an 1861, I have only tested it on 2811's. I don't see why an 1861, 1841, etc, would not work, but you need to make sure the Cisco IOS image you run supports L2TP. I don't work with or have any integrator recommendations else I would be happy to send you a contact. The actual Cisco people are not super helpful when it comes to building it although the hardware supports it and all the transport is based on standards.

You can prove it out to someone that it works and then get their buy in - it's not a bad way to transport v.24.

Alex
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:17 am

i don't see the cards that cheap anywhere you got a source to find them for 20 dollars I see them for 125 to 175 each

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alex
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:31 am

Ah, well, it would help if I told you the right card information:

http://www.cablesandkits.com/cisco-2-po ... p-669.html

WIC-2T is the card you want. You may luck out on ebay and find them cheaper. Be careful of some of the overseas hardware though - some of them are fakes (they work?).

Alex
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:41 am

Parts are ordered see how it goes

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:17 am

Alex,

are you familiar with how to set these 2811's up,, these are the first to i ahve seen and lost as ever at how to set them up

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:21 am

celltech25 wrote:Alex, are you familiar with how to set these 2811's up,, these are the first to i ahve seen and lost as ever at how to set them up


I'll be honest - I know how to set them up, it takes time and learning to do it. It'll take me a long time to write up a bunch of how-to's on this that wouldn't work for a lot of situations because of how people build and configure their networks, so I've given some general guidelines below...

The basic steps are (and you can google to get some instructions / background on it):

You do all your setup/config's with the little RJ45 -> 9 Pin serial cable. Most routers you buy online come with one. Cable pinouts are on the internet and easy to build a mod-adapt if needed. Terminal settings by default are 9600-8-N-1.

1) Ensure the configurations are clear on the routers to start with. If they are not, you may have to follow the reset procedures.

2) Figure out what Cisco iOS they are running. You may need to change that to get some basic functionality to work - but for this with no VPN etc - I am willing to bet that whatever the showed up with will just work... I have had good luck with 2800nm-advipservicesk9 images. You'll need at least a 128MB compact flash card I think to hold the image. You can put the image on a FAT formatted USB stick and from the rommon> prompt type boot usbflash0: and it should just boot. You'll copy the usb image to the compact flash card using:

copy usbboot0:[filename] flash:[filename]

then reload the router and remove the usb device before it boots...

3) Once you clear the configs (if they are not already ) you'll have to make sure the router will retain the configs again by setting the command config-register 0x2102 (when in enable mode).

4) Do your configuration - there's tons of ways of doing this and a lot of examples around the internet to get basic ethernet connectivity up....

5) Add in the lines above to interact with the serial card.

6) Presto they should pass v.24 traffic.

7) when all your stuff is working don't forget to write your config by typing write. (it'll say Building configuration...)

(back it up using another host if you have one that supports scp:

copy running-config scp://username@ipaddress

or

copy running-config flash:running-config-20140819.txt

I made this sound a lot easier than it is. I've self taught myself a ton of this stuff over a good 6-7 year period as I've needed to learn it... It's not hard to make work but it takes some time and patience to get right... If you have an integrator that does Cisco already I'd probably nudge them for some more direct help...

Alex
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby celltech25 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:49 pm

well I was able to get this going,

Ended up using the 2811 ISR with the cards and the Enterprise base software for the 2811 and STUN

Easy setup using stun and so far working good,

Was never able to get the pseudowire class stuff to take but STUN is working great

Thanks for the Help ALEX

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:36 pm

celltech25 wrote:well I was able to get this going,

Ended up using the 2811 ISR with the cards and the Enterprise base software for the 2811 and STUN

Easy setup using stun and so far working good,

Was never able to get the pseudowire class stuff to take but STUN is working great

Thanks for the Help ALEX


Cool - I have not used STUN to do it... It's CISCO so there's always more than one way to skin the cat. Glad to see it's working and sorry I couldn't have given you more pointed instructions on it.

Alex
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Sat May 13, 2017 11:50 am

Hi Alex!

Thanks for this info. Very useful.

I am planning to link 2 Moto devices via Internet by using Cisco stuff. Of course, to build a net or use satellite receiver. Looks like you're very good with both Quantar and Cisco. So, I am intended to ask you a few questions. And will be glad to get answers.

1. Why you recommend to use WIC-1/WIC-2 cards when other site ( http://p25.io/access-your-quantar-via-cisco/ ) offers AUX port for serial-over-Ethernet transport? Can we use AUX port for V24 linking? It's a bit cheaper and faster, because it's very easily to crimp RJ45 instead of creating custom cables by using not very cheap Cisco SmartSerial cables (or making DB-RJ45 adapter as stated above).

2. I am not very interested in Quantar remote control via Cisco, but in case of WIC-2 can we use one port for V24 linking and second one for remote programming? The last thing now done by using Moxa NPort, but if Cisco is here, it's a good idea to discard the Moxa. Why not if it's possible?

3. As I can see, you're not using STUN, but encapsulate packets to L2PT. What is the pros and cons of your method and STUN method? Looks like STUN is especially developed fot serial by Cisco, but L2TP is widely used. STUN might have some advantages.

4. If I am right, we can work out task # 2 just by creating this config http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/do ... 75-14.html (one channel is for linking and another one is for remote programming). Can you comment it up? I am not very good with Cisco, just started playing (but relatively good with networks at all - just have been focused on other vendors).

Now I run on 2 Cisco 1841 and waiting for a 1 of WIC-1 and 1 of WIC-2. And a few cables for serial. Now just setting a net and collecting data / make some preparations.

Thanks in advance!
I am biggest fan of XTS2500 and ASTRO Digital Saber.

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Sat May 13, 2017 5:50 pm

MotoFAN wrote:Hi Alex!
HI!

1. Why you recommend to use WIC-1/WIC-2 cards when other site ( http://p25.io/access-your-quantar-via-cisco/ ) offers AUX port for serial-over-Ethernet transport? Can we use AUX port for V24 linking? It's a bit cheaper and faster, because it's very easily to crimp RJ45 instead of creating custom cables by using not very cheap Cisco SmartSerial cables (or making DB-RJ45 adapter as stated above).


Easy answer: There are 1000's of ways to skin this cat and the way above I found works perfectly fine. I went searching around for how to move synchronous serial data using the Cisco equipment. This is what I came up with. I've also been to a ton of sites around the country and seen this stuff connected a bunch of different ways. Once I saw the cards involved I basically thought what is good for the goose is good for the gander and off I went.

To address your question - if this works then there is no reason to not try it first. In fact I think in another thread you mentioned something about using a cheaper serial over Ethernet box which using the above should be no different than an AUX port on the Cisco router. I don't have the funds to buy the boxes and put it together but I am sure you are not the only one curious to see if it works. Keep in mind that I have been operating under the assumption (and very possibly a false one at that) that timing (CLK pins) were needed. If they are not needed then that would be interesting to know.

2. I am not very interested in Quantar remote control via Cisco, but in case of WIC-2 can we use one port for V24 linking and second one for remote programming? The last thing now done by using Moxa NPort, but if Cisco is here, it's a good idea to discard the Moxa. Why not if it's possible?


You can do this. I think I did a bunch of googling but it works just fine. You can use either a WIC2 port or the AUX port on the router. Pin it out. With the AUX port there's a way to set it up. I don't have the code handy as I haven't used this in a couple of years (just did a proof of concept) but it does work fine to read/write/get status remotely.

3. As I can see, you're not using STUN, but encapsulate packets to L2PT. What is the pros and cons of your method and STUN method? Looks like STUN is especially developed fot serial by Cisco, but L2TP is widely used. STUN might have some advantages.


You can use whatever works for your application. I simply figured it out with xconnect and that is how I did it. Doesn't mean it is the best, right, or wrong way. I used examples from googling xconnect, hdlc, v.24, etc., and just banged on the setup until it linked up. I have not tried STUN, but, it is on the to do list. I only have two routers out in the world right now that run a single voted v.24 site for a friend (and have worked great for 3-4 years now with the only downtime being the ones related to the transport providers.

pseudowire & xconnect are basically protocol blind. They don't really care about the bits and do not pretend to disect them. A 1 in is a 1 out. You can xconnect a bunch of stuff in the Cisco world (T1's with the right cards can be xconnected through ISR's!). Ethernet too!

4. If I am right, we can work out task # 2 just by creating this config http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/do ... 75-14.html (one channel is for linking and another one is for remote programming). Can you comment it up? I am not very good with Cisco, just started playing (but relatively good with networks at all - just have been focused on other vendors).

Now I run on 2 Cisco 1841 and waiting for a 1 of WIC-1 and 1 of WIC-2. And a few cables for serial. Now just setting a net and collecting data / make some preparations.

Thanks in advance!


I would assume you can follow that or others tutorials (or mine above).

The 1841 should do what you need (remote programming and passing v.24 through the router). Are you looking for how to make the two routers talk to each other over the internet or another network? The lovely part about sticking with Cisco all the way through on this is because they can speak all the layer three protocols, support vpn, etc., you do not need another box between your serial tunneling device and the internet or transport network of choice.

Happy to see people playing and learning with this. I do think that these devices are under utilized/appreciated for what they can do for the radio world. The ISR (intergrated services router) platform is pretty amazing.

If you end up wanting to do voice I'll warn you that you have to go to at least a 2811 with an Advanced IP Services load on it. The 1841 will not do voice. If you stack VPN on top you may also want to fill the 2811 with ram.

Alex
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:04 am

Hi Alex! Just a feq questions.

1. Are you sure that you have used CAB-SS-232FC cables at the both routers? IMHO, another one side must use CAB-SS-232FC, but other - CAB-SS-232MT. And the reason is not just DB25 pin asignment (it's easy to fix) - SmartSerial cables contains internal jumper(s) that set port WIC/HWIC's mode, DCE or DTE. They are hardwired inside SS connector and can't be changed untill SS connector fully disassembled. Please clarify this moment.

2. You have used HWIC-2SER card. But how about HWIC-1T, HWIC-2T, HWIC-4T, HWIC-4A/S? Will they work as specified above?
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:28 pm

Yes, the difference is the dip switch settings I believe on the actual v.24 cards.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=114470

See the above post.

I have been using WIC2T cards with no issues. As long as the card supports SYNCHRONOUS serial you are fine. Just know that a lot of cards do async but not sync serial.

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Alex, thanks.

Good to know about DIP switches on ATAC, but before dive to things like that I must solve current issue. It's a reason why I want to clarify moment with Cisco serial cables first. They are determines mode of serial port at Cisco side, I know it for 200%. When you plug "MT" cable, HWIC-*T port becomes DCE with no any commands issued. When you plug "FC" cable, port becomes DTE. No other options, because Cisco uses 3 pins reserved for mode determination and these are located inside SmartSerial connector.

QUESTION: Are you sure that you used 2 identical "FC" cables at the both sides and got everything working, including serial tunnelling? Because from my investigation you MUST use different cables, because one end or serial line must be DTE or DCE, but another (second) end must be DTE or DCE also one, but OPPOSITE TYPE to first one. I drawn some diagram, please check it and pay attention to cable names and adapters:

http://netfileshare.com/share/cisco/STUN-HW.png

It doesn't work for some unknown reason(s) yet, but I am working on it. I am not sure where problem is, STUN or wiring, but from what I read, cables must be different. I will be glad to get another opinion because I could be wrong.

And yes, I know about modes supported by cards (sync vs async), already come across with Cisco's table that clearly shows it. Looks like they released HWIC-*SER cards for 1861 ISRs only. And they are named normally (T or A/S suffixes) cards for the rest ISRs. So, nothing special with "SER" cards - they are similar to regular "T" cards (excluding ISRs support).

Thanks!
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:39 pm

It has been a couple of years since I was playing with this and my notes are somewhat scattered about. It's not something that I have access to take apart today to recreate. Sorry - but - I can jump in to the routers and look at the stats and config. To add via edit: The switches will allow you to use the same cables. Or you have to swap the serial lines around in the adapter(s) or cables I'd think. My feeling is change the dip switches on the v.24 card to experiment.

R1

Code: Select all

interface Serial0/0/0
 no ip address
 no fair-queue
 clock rate 9600
 xconnect [IPADDRESS R2] 100 pw-class [classname]

pseudowire-class [classname]
 encapsulation l2tpv3
 ip local interface [interfacename]


Code: Select all

Serial0/0/0 is up, line protocol is up
  Hardware is GT96K Serial
  MTU 1500 bytes, BW 1544 Kbit/sec, DLY 20000 usec,
     reliability 255/255, txload 1/255, rxload 1/255
  Encapsulation HDLC, loopback not set
  Keepalive set (10 sec)
  CRC checking enabled
  Last input 14w0d, output 00:00:00, output hang never
  Last clearing of "show interface" counters never
  Input queue: 0/75/0/0 (size/max/drops/flushes); Total output drops: 0
  Queueing strategy: fifo
  Output queue: 0/40 (size/max)
  5 minute input rate 0 bits/sec, 0 packets/sec
  5 minute output rate 0 bits/sec, 0 packets/sec
     6383769 packets input, 12993443 bytes, 0 no buffer
     Received 2 broadcasts (0 IP multicasts)
     0 runts, 0 giants, 0 throttles
     0 input errors, 0 CRC, 0 frame, 0 overrun, 0 ignored, 0 abort
     1859826 packets output, 65505100 bytes, 0 underruns
     0 output errors, 0 collisions, 6 interface resets
     2 unknown protocol drops
     0 output buffer failures, 0 output buffers swapped out
     0 carrier transitions
     DCD=up  DSR=up  DTR=up  RTS=down  CTS=up



R2

Code: Select all

interface Serial0/0/0
 no ip address
 no fair-queue
 clock rate 9600
 xconnect [IPADDRESS R1] 100 pw-class [classname]

pseudowire-class [classname]
 encapsulation l2tpv3
 ip local interface [interfacename]


Code: Select all

Serial0/0/0 is up, line protocol is up
  Hardware is GT96K Serial
  MTU 1500 bytes, BW 1544 Kbit/sec, DLY 20000 usec,
     reliability 255/255, txload 1/255, rxload 1/255
  Encapsulation HDLC, loopback not set
  Keepalive set (10 sec)
  CRC checking enabled
  Last input 8w1d, output 8w1d, output hang never
  Last clearing of "show interface" counters never
  Input queue: 0/75/0/0 (size/max/drops/flushes); Total output drops: 0
  Queueing strategy: weighted fair
  Output queue: 0/1000/64/0 (size/max total/threshold/drops)
     Conversations  0/1/256 (active/max active/max total)
     Reserved Conversations 0/0 (allocated/max allocated)
     Available Bandwidth 1158 kilobits/sec
  5 minute input rate 0 bits/sec, 0 packets/sec
  5 minute output rate 0 bits/sec, 0 packets/sec
     3118803 packets input, 12626321 bytes, 0 no buffer
     Received 1 broadcasts (0 IP multicasts)
     0 runts, 0 giants, 0 throttles
     0 input errors, 0 CRC, 0 frame, 0 overrun, 0 ignored, 0 abort
     804382 packets output, 1736649 bytes, 0 underruns
     0 output errors, 0 collisions, 5 interface resets
     1 unknown protocol drops
     0 output buffer failures, 0 output buffers swapped out
     0 carrier transitions
     DCD=up  DSR=up  DTR=up  RTS=down  CTS=up
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:09 am

Thanks, Alex.

When I see clock rate 9600 set for both ports, I trust you that cables are both DCE (FC cable). Becase this command is not applicable to DTE ports (MT cable). So, all looks right, but interesting.

What are you connected by this way? ATAC receiver to ATAC 3000 comparator?
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:30 am

FC sounds right.

ATAC Rx to Atac3000 comparator.

Internet linked one site, about a 30-40ms delay for the site.

Sorry I have access to the physical routers, but, this was cabled 3-4 years ago and has been rock solid since. I can't just go to the site and pull the cards. I don't know off hand if the Cisco OS will spit out what cable is connected to it (unless I detach the atac and see what it says). I'll see if I can have someone go up to one of the sites and read the number off the blue cable.

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:51 am

Alex, many thanks. There is a way to determine cable type just from console. So, no physical access needed.

Code: Select all

enable
sh controllers serial x/y/z

And check output.
Hardware is GT96K
DCE V.24 (RS-232), clock rate xxxxxxx

Pay attention to parts marked with red. You will see clock rate only for DCE port. It means that CAB-**-232FC is currently connected.

In other case you will see:
Hardware is GT96K
DTE V.24 (RS-232)idb at 0xXXXXXXXX

It means that CAB-**-232MT is connected.

This is what I found out from my plays with Cisco. Very convenient freature!
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:58 am

And since I don't have my own Quantar yet, just ATAC and DUI3000, I want to test V24 connectivity between 2 of them. I case of ATAC DIP switch marked as S100 and offers these settings:

Image

ATAC manual tells nothing what exactly this switch do, but I believe, that this switch is equivalent of S101 switch in Quantar. So, I can read Quantar manual too. And this is what I see:

Connecting to a local DIU or ASTRO-TAC Comparator requires a null modem cable and programming the station for Internal Clock Generation (refer to the RSS User's Guide for details).
...
Note 1  External Transmit Clock (located on the Wireline Configuration RSS screen) must be set to DISABLED.
Note 2  External Transmit Clock (located on the Wireline Configuration RSS screen) must be set to ENABLED.


So, looks like it's clocking source selection, Internal vs External. And I added appropriate notes to the picture.

What do you think about?
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:08 pm

Oh right - forgot sh controller. Nice reminder thank you. DCE on both ends.

R1

Code: Select all

Hardware is GT96K
DCE V.24 (RS-232), clock rate 9600


R2

Code: Select all

Hardware is GT96K
DCE V.24 (RS-232), clock rate 9600
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:12 pm

Intereinsting. I've never seen in examples before. Going further!
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:05 pm

Hi Alex!

May I ask you, where did you get this pinout? It looks good for 90%, but I am not sure about line #8.
alex wrote:RJ-45 / DB25
1 Blue / 17
2 Orange / 8
3 Black / 15
4 Red / 7
5 Green / 3
6 Yellow / 2
7 Brown / 5
8 Slate / 20

For more convinience I converted it to picture and added more details:

Image

Everything looks fine excluding RTS pin going to DTR (pin #20) instead of RTS (pin # 4). I.e. all lines are straight-through, but only one does not fit into the system. I checked and double-checked Cisco SmartSerial<->EIA/TIA pinouts to be sure that problem is not there, but looks like they are correct. So, we have 2 options:

1. Cisco serial IF is waiting for "up" signal (+5..15 VDC) and guy who designed this adapter decided to take it from RTS line
2. Some misprint/mistake in your scheme

Do not get me wrong, I have no doubts at all about you. I am just checking before wire something. Want to how it works and want to be sure that everything is OK.

All thoughts about it will be appreciate.
Last edited by MotoFAN on Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:08 pm

Yes, it needs one of those pins to come up to send the data I think and sync up. I'd say play with the dip switches on the v.24 card. I think 50% is the clocking and the other 50% is flipping what way the port sees the cable on the station.
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:15 pm

Thanks. Just coriuos, have you designed the adapter by yourself, or seen schematics somewhere in docs/papers/etc.?
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:09 am

The short story: A friend sent me some photos of model numbers & part numbers used at one of their sites for transport. In talking with some other contacts they were able to provide the physical cable layout with the modular adapter pins to accomplish the same. I labbed the whole thing a while back before we then deployed it on a system where it's been working ever since.
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:25 am

Thanks a lot!
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:54 pm

alex wrote:RJ-45 / DB25
1 Blue / 17
2 Orange / 8
3 Black / 15
4 Red / 7
5 Green / 3
6 Yellow / 2
7 Brown / 5
8 Slate / 20

Alex, any chances that you or your guys have similar pinout for MT cable? Looks like it's not easy to transpond FC adapter to MT adapter.
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby alex » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:50 pm

Nope - never looked at another option because we knew this worked in the configuration already existing if that makes sense.

https://www.cablesandkits.com/accessori ... c/pro-240/ has them for $14.99. I feel like any frustration you might be experiencing with making this work could be resolved for $30 + shipping is likely worth it.

The other side of the house has me thinking flip the tx/rx's and maybe it'll work but I'd just get the cables if it were me.

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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:44 pm

Ok, thanks. Just I know a local source of cheap MT cables and want to make them working. But looks like it's not easy to transpond adapter from DCE to DTE. Tried many wirings, but no luck.

Your scheme, FC+FC, finally works fine.
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:02 am

Okay, guys.

I stopped attempts to get it working with 1 or 2 of CAB-SS-232MT cable(s) in setup, because nobody can develop or supply working adapter pinout. It’s including me, my guys, and 30+ experience engineer from modem company (who has written a book about serial lines, DTE and DCE). LOL. Looks like it’s too complicated or other participants are not enough motivated. A 4 days was spent on this, and future investigation makes no sense from the viewpoint of economy.

But! If you, maybe months or years later, will come across with this my post, and you have working Cisco to Motorola pinout for "MT" cable, please do not hesitate to PM me with details and post it publically here in this thread. Just for future use and for the Universal Good.

Thanks in advance!

P.S.
Here is picture of Cicso CAB-SS-232MT for your reference (difference from "FC" is male pins at DB25 end):

Image
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby motorola_otaku » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:16 am

Your issue is not with the pinouts, it's with what the cable is telling the Cisco router to provide. When you connect a DTE cable to the Cisco it flip-flops all the signal paths, and your outbounds become inbounds (and vice-versa.) No amount of pin-swapping or hacking magic will change this, unless you convert the DTE cable to DCE.
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby MotoFAN » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:19 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:Your issue is not with the pinouts, it's with what the cable is telling the Cisco router to provide. When you connect a DTE cable to the Cisco it flip-flops all the signal paths, and your outbounds become inbounds (and vice-versa.) No amount of pin-swapping or hacking magic will change this, unless you convert the DTE cable to DCE.

Hi there! Year, I know it very well, but if you look at Cisco cables, both MT and FC, you will see all signals are presented at the both cables. Here is CAB-SS-232 cables schematics. There are no differences in set of signals, no one has missed and no one has added. And Motorola gear can become DTE or DCE depending on CSS setting and S100/S101 DIP switch position. Difference between DTE and DCE is only in signal direction, this is well known from serial lines literature. No any other differences. So, you can reverse signal direction at WIC/HWIC-*T (there is a special jumper inside SmartSerial cable) and at the same time you can reverse signal direction at Motorola side, like DIU, Quantar or ASTRO-TAC. There is a setting known as clocking (external vs internal). This setting needed specially to make Motorola device DTE or DCE. We all knew that DCE provides clocking for DTE, and DTE follows to clocking provided by DCE. No other options. So, why not MT cable?

I discussed it with many engeneers including authors of books about serial comms, DTE/DCE, RS-232, etc. And they clearly said, that it's possible if both devices on the same line can change direction appropriately.
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Re: v.24 transport over ethernet

Postby chartofmaryland » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:30 am

Morning All,

I hope someone already covered the RTS to DTR where you on the DB25 side need to tie pin 4 to pin 20 together.

The Astro traffic will not flow until you do on one end. Can be on both ends if you only want to make one cable or adapter.

This plays whether you are using RJ45 to 45 or DB25 to 25 via dial-up modems

See if that does anything

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