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GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

This forum is for discussions regarding System Infrastructure and Related Equipment. This includes but is not limited to repeaters, base stations, consoles, voters, Voice over IP, system design and implementation, and other related topics.

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GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby wavetar » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:42 am

Broad overview of what we need to do as a design for a specific customer system...get 4-wire analog audio from a dual-mode analog/P25 repeater, to send over RoIP links to be recovered as 4-wire analog at the far end.

In looking at Motorola equipment (what we're most familiar with), the GTR8000 requires a DIU to convert & amalgamate the v.24 onto a common 4-wire audio path. The DIU is not a current product, there is no current replacement product offering, and we don't want to be working with refurnished/unsupported product.

In googling around, there are a few v.24 boxes that can convert it to P25 IP (the RIC-M from AVTEC, for instance), but they interface on the far end at an IP level to specific IP consoles, they don't break out to analog audio, which we need.

Anyone here work with a DIU alternative, or is there another Manufacturer repeater out there that can output analog and P25 onto a 4-wire analog output?
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby d119 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:28 pm


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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby 515 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:16 pm

It's actually the "Astro modem" that sends both P25 and analog traffic down the same 4-wire interface. The DIU only does the vocoding, converting analog audio to/from a tone remote or locally connected console into the P25 IMBE/AMBE format and adding the necessary information to make full P25 voice frames.

The standard DIU sends/receives P25 traffic via it's V.24 synchronous serial interface, and analog audio to/from the base station uses a separate tone remote or direct connect interface. The "Astro Modem" can be optionally added to both the DIU and Quantar, and will allow both the analog and digital traffic to share the same 4-wire circuit. It is designed to fit on the Quantar wireline board, so you'd have to do something very custom and non-standard to get it to work with a GTR8000.

Many commercial modems can support synchronous serial and work with the V.24 interfaces on both the DIU and Quantar/GTR8000, but I'm not aware of any that would also allow analog audio to share the same 4-wire circuit. With the commercial modems, one circuit would be needed for analog audio, and a second for P25.

As you noticed, Motorola left people needing a DIU out in the cold by not replacing it with something newer. I guess their answer is to buy some Astro Core and CCGW's to connect consoles and base stations.

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby wavetar » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:26 am

d119 wrote:http://christinewireless.com/


Yes, that is the box I referred to, although I mentioned AVTEC specifically as they do use it for their consoles. It is a nice unit, but you need an IP console on the far end to do the actual vocoding to get the analog audio.

I looked at the various offerings from DVSI to see if they could work with the RIC-M, but it appears they only talk to other DVSI boxes:

http://www.dvsinc.com/products/products.htm
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby d119 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:28 am

Let me know if you need a DIU...

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby d119 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:30 am

Wait a minute - What about the new comparator/interface thing... MLC8000... I know it has v.24 and analog inputs, might want to check into that.

Somehow it interfaces to consoles via wireline, I can't imagine it isn't capable of converting P25 to analog.

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby jmfirefighter20 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:52 am

d119 wrote:Wait a minute - What about the new comparator/interface thing... MLC8000... I know it has v.24 and analog inputs, might want to check into that.

Somehow it interfaces to consoles via wireline, I can't imagine it isn't capable of converting P25 to analog.


The MLC8000 seems like it COULD do so much, but it's really relatively limited in function. My old system used the MLC8000 to convert 4-wire audio into an IP stream for analog simulcast. Now Motorola is going to be using it to interface the V.24 from Quantars and GTR8000's, into an IP stream, and then into the new GCM8000 comparator. The comparator will then spit out (from what I understand) a composite IP stream containing the V.24 data from different receivers into the CCGW-HD/MCC7500 console where the vocoding actually occurs. AFAIK, the MLC8000 is only a converter.....V.24/IP/V.24 and Analog Audio/IP/Analog Audio.
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby wavetar » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:49 am

jmfirefighter20 wrote:
d119 wrote:Wait a minute - What about the new comparator/interface thing... MLC8000... I know it has v.24 and analog inputs, might want to check into that.

Somehow it interfaces to consoles via wireline, I can't imagine it isn't capable of converting P25 to analog.


The MLC8000 seems like it COULD do so much, but it's really relatively limited in function. My old system used the MLC8000 to convert 4-wire audio into an IP stream for analog simulcast. Now Motorola is going to be using it to interface the V.24 from Quantars and GTR8000's, into an IP stream, and then into the new GCM8000 comparator. The comparator will then spit out (from what I understand) a composite IP stream containing the V.24 data from different receivers into the CCGW-HD/MCC7500 console where the vocoding actually occurs. AFAIK, the MLC8000 is only a converter.....V.24/IP/V.24 and Analog Audio/IP/Analog Audio.


From what I've read (and what Motorola sales is telling me), you are correct, no vocoding with the MLC/GCM products.
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby d119 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:01 pm

Again, let me know if you need a DIU... freakin' motorola!

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby alex » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:31 am

I've been going through this myself where a Zetron console will be on one side and gold elite/MCC7500 on the other. The second you touch the console world you can forget everything you know about an IP network because Motorola just knows better (no tinge of sarcasm).

You can use MLC8000's as analog voters all day long. You need one master which you connect to the console and then you can build up as many sites as the product allows (i think 64(?). They then talk back to that master. If you are not using simulcast and you have 4 channels you can put a single MLC8000 at a site and those 4 channels can talk back to their 4 masters. (Yes, 1 master per channel). If you are doing analog simulcast you need a single MLC8000 per channel per site, however, I am told if you are using them for the v.24 transport for p25 simulcast you don't need to adhere to the 1 MLC to 1 Channel per site rule (unconfirmed).

Every port on the MLC has audio back from the console to the port. You can build something to do main standby with this feature (maybe use something like Web Relays) to remote trip relays since you have the IP network.

You do not need a site router or site switch for the MLC to work, but, your IP transport network has to be very robust and meet the requirements to push the data around. I don't know if I would "internet vote" a site especially in a simulcast configuration.

The second you go "I want mixed mode" prepare for your hand to hit your forehead and hard. If you want to rock the G Series equipment you would need:

MLC8000 for Transport
CCGW for Audio
DIU
GCP8000 for the digital comparator.

This wouldn't include site routers and switches or back haul equipment which given your transport you may or may not need. I believe when you are all said and done you also don't get to pick like you could on the Quantars if Digital or Analog has priority over one or the other, but, that might be able to be done on a station by station basis in the field, not, at the comparator.

There is a new analog comparator coming soon which will allow for full ethernet keying from the MCC just like the GCP. Who knows when that will hit the streets and who the first test case will be.
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby jmfirefighter20 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:02 am

Yes it is quite frustrating! When I was told that in order to do P25 simulcast, we needed to purchase MLC8000's for EVERY radio on each channel. All the transmitters are GTR8000s, but we have two Quantar receivers floating around still. They said we couldn't tie the GTR8000s in via the IP connection and have just the Quantar receivers on the MLC8000s....it had to be all or nothing. Crazy.....
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby Bill_G » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:07 am

Oh goodness. This last week, I just reviewed an eight site three channel simulcast proposal that has the alphabet soup recipe from above. Confidence is high it will be approved. Sounds like I need to add padded helmets to my line items.

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby chartofmaryland » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:11 am

Tragically your solution is with MotoBridge RGU's into a GGM8000 IPLC running ACIM (not many who know how to configure this) or a consolette

I hate the consolette idea by the way . . . Could always run 2 with crossmute I guess if down to brass tacks

Motobridge would be to patch 2 ports with one running ACIM and other your 4-wire E+M to your remote end

Hope there is no encryption with this system

These are the only 2 certifiable solutions available through E-Cat that will have some sort of support

Note* The MotoBridge RGU may be on a path to WAVE integration so don't put alot of faith in the GUI's

Also having issues with Software Dispatch running in Windows 10 so think more consolette than anything else if your customer is not up for buying a K core

Alternatives on the possible horizon are with the Avtec Console through a RIC-M

Do not believe they have a sell-able product yet as this directly competes with WAVE5000 which I do not believe has an interface yet to drop in as a TRC deskset replacement???

http://www.telex.com/vi/dispatch/produc ... rface/1535

Also saw the above recently but no word if it will work with a RIC-M

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby alex » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:24 am

chartofmaryland wrote:Motobridge would be to patch 2 ports with one running ACIM and other your 4-wire E+M to your remote end.


So if I read this right you set one port up on the Motobridge that grabs audio + is keyed by ACIM (2 wire RS232 (ok, maybe a 3rd ground wire) and patch that out to another Motobridge port as E&M?

Interesting.
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby chartofmaryland » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:38 pm

Yes Sir,

Has worked quite well as long as nothing gets hung up and you need to power cycle the RGU

This for the non ECat users means a $12,000 GGM8000 with high capacity CCGW card and IPLC firmware, a $15,000 motobridge RGU and at least $3,000 in software to configure and modify the units.

Or 2 APX7500 consolette in band of choice around $9,500 each along with $300.00 in software
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby d119 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:18 am

IPLC? Explain this. I've never seen CCGW's used outside of an MCC7500 system.

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby alex » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:47 am

IPLC = IP Link Converters. I think it's the same physical box that the CCGW is but it does not require the console system to operate(?). It would allow for third party interconnection to a system with GCP/MLC mixed mode where you were not using a Motorola Console. This is what you would plug a DIU in to feed say a Zetron console or if you wanted a bunch of tone remotes floating around your firestation in offices....
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby d119 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:06 am

Sounds to me like there's a niche market for a product to be developed here...

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby chartofmaryland » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:29 am

We use the IPLC with DIU's and our CCGW from our 7500 console.

The IPLC does not require a site controller to have a conversation with a GCM8000.

Downside is the IPLC does not have a vocoder inside. It is no different than a Cisco router with proper cards to interface to the outside world

Also have used this with modem drops from other agencies consoles to patch in for interop

Been fishing the 3com code in the IPLC to allow multiple DIU connections in the same unit versus now where you can have only 1 V.24 DIU connection per conventional net.

Bored this morning and came across

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/in ... 02/lmr.pdf

If it's possible to e&m and v.24 stun in the same router then there might be another option

Down the page mentions DFSI but wondering if it's needed

Looks like a couple of software licenses to make fly though
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby alex » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:03 am

On the Cisco Side you can combine STUN/XCONNECT in the same router as E&M without issue. The router must have the image that allows for voice and must also have a PVDM module for the DSP if you are doing anything with voice - T1/PRI, E&M, FXS, FXO etc.

I don't think you would get DFSI using a router only I anticipate you will need IPICS for it to do the transcoding.
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby wavetar » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:36 am

Found out Cisco has a standalone DFSI gateway software. So, we can use the RIC-M to interface to the GTR8000 and feed DFSI from the RIC-M to the DFSI gateway. The gateway will do the vocoding, and send the audio via G.711 to a Cisco router and output on an E&M card. Life is now good!
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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby d119 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:25 am

Please keep us posted on how this works out, perhaps some photos of the final product?

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Re: GTR8000 & DIU alternatives?

Postby wavetar » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:55 am

It's RFP stage at the moment, so pics will be quite a ways out, but I can probably post up a design document in the near future.
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