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MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Moderator: Queue Moderator

ve3nsv
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Postby ve3nsv » Tue May 08, 2007 5:13 pm

wavetar wrote: Ok, no problems with PTT working at all. I believe I might know the problem you're having though...what number pin are you trying to use in the accessory connector? Be aware that even though the CPS shows the PTT as being "pin 1", it's actually "GP5_1", which corresponds to physical pin 17 on the connector.

Todd


Yup you where right, RTFM stupid. :)

Still no luck on COR though. Motorola says pin 21 on the option connector which is pin 3 in the CPS but we have had no luck. I think this radio might have issues with the option connector has the Motorola tech was able to get COR on his radio while testing over the phone. This will be our 3rd mobile radio to be returned in a month, thank god we are testing this in house before taking it to market.

We have interfaced this to an IP-223 and other then the COR issue which we have worked around for now using VOX it works rather well. Great TX and RX audio using C-Soft with just a computer mic and with an IP-2002 with the desk mic.

On a related note, when we upgraded the radio firmware last month the radio went into a constant TX state and we lost the ability to communicate with the radio on the rear accessory jack. Motorola confirmed today that they where able to duplicate the TX issue with the firmware upgrade but not the rear accessory issue.

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Postby wavetar » Wed May 09, 2007 3:23 am

Glad to hear you got the PTT working. Also thanks for the heads up for the firmware upgrade causing continuous transmit...I'll hold off on doing any more of them unless it's absolutely necessary or until they fix the issue.

As far as the COR goes, I can get an active high COR on pin 23 no problem on 3 different mobiles so far. It just won't give an active low regardless of CPS setting. I have been told this is going to be fixed in the next firmware release, scheduled for sometime in July. Mark it in your calendars folks.

Todd
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wavetar
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Postby wavetar » Mon May 14, 2007 4:22 pm

wavetar wrote: As far as the COR goes, I can get an active high COR on pin 23 no problem on 3 different mobiles so far. It just won't give an active low regardless of CPS setting. I have been told this is going to be fixed in the next firmware release, scheduled for sometime in July. Mark it in your calendars folks.

Todd


Further testing today shows the above is only true in analog mode. In digital mode there is no COR whatsoever! What a pain in the @ss. I'm hoping I missed something in the programming...I switched the pin setting from "PL/Talkgroup detect" to "CSQ" just in case, but no difference. ^*&$&%^(^%&(^%$&*^%

Todd
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mr.syntrx
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby mr.syntrx » Tue May 29, 2007 1:11 am

I downloaded the specs for MOTOTRBO from ETSI last night, to get a bit of a better look at how it works. This information is free, unlike information from TIA (the cheap bastards). The relevant documents are:

TS 102 361-1 Part 1: DMR Air Interface (AI) protocol
TS 102 361-2 Part 2: DMR voice and generic services and facilities
TS 102 361-3 Part 3: DMR data protocol
TS 102 361-4 Part 4: DMR trunking protocol

What's the bet MOTOTRBO trunking will be what Motorola pushes when business 3600bps systems are gone? Has anyone heard of any plans from Motorola for trunking?

As it stands right now, the standard defines three tiers of operation. Lifted directly from TS 102 361-1:

• Tier I: DMR equipment having an integral antenna and working in direct mode (communication without
infrastructure) under a general authorization with no individual rights operation.
• Tier II: DMR systems operating under individual licences working in direct mode or using a Base Station (BS)
for repeating.
• Tier III: DMR trunking systems under individual licences operating with a controller function that
automatically regulates the communications.

Tier I is already implemented on the European PMR446 service, which is essentially the same as FRS in the USA. Tier II is what is currently implemented by MOTOTRBO equipment.

afterimage84
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby afterimage84 » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:36 pm

They say "yes" on the LTR and possibly passport....
Suddenly You Were Gone

com501
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby com501 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:46 am

Got a note from MOL....

VHF added to the product line as well as updated software and firmware (again).

They also sent codeplugs, but I haven't played yet. Thinking of getting a VHF radio pair and a Trbo Repeater for playing. Its GOTTA be fairly good range wise. Anyone played with the VHF stuff yet? :D

wiscomm
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby wiscomm » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:30 pm

Some people never learn...

Doing a search on eBay for MotoTRBO finds an interesting listing

EDIT: Guess some folks don't allow links to eBay items anymore, Good Grief.

Craig
Last edited by wiscomm on Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RESCUE161
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby RESCUE161 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:45 pm

I'd edit that post with the quickness if I were you...
Scott
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maelv
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Re:

Postby maelv » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:04 am

wavetar wrote:Anyone else run into this little 'bug' with the CPS?

I found that the factory programmed digital personality of course works. Now, try deleting the factory analog personality, and manually creating a second, third, fourth, etc, digital channel. By "manually", I mean right-click "Zone 1", and choose "new", "digital channel". It will put them in there...but they will NOT work...you just get an error tone when you attempt to transmit. Doesn't matter if you set it as a repeater channel, or a simplex channel. Also doesn't' matter which "repeater slot" you set it for. This happened with both of my demo portables, and the demo mobile.

I had to erase all but the factory digital personality, then highlight the personality, right-click it, and choose "copy". Then highlight "Zone 1", right-click it, and choose "paste". It will add it as the next channel, and it will then work!

This was with the latest "B" version of the CPS.

What a pain in the @ss...especially when I was trying to program the buggers the night before they were to be showcased at a convention.

Todd



I have just recieved my new mototrbo portabels DP3601 (euro versions) and have the same problem with my cps and it is (mototrbo cps v1.0 bulid 59)
so dos any one know if there is a newer version of the cps?
because when i have payed close to 260 USD for i think i should have a version without this problem.
and i have looked ind the cps but it dos not seem to have an online update funktion ?

and i am also looking for info about the GPIO pins for the portabels so i can test this funktions so dos any one have this info or how do i get it

Thanks
maelv

com501
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby com501 » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:08 pm

It's not a bug, it's a feature!!

Dontcha just LOVE beta testing someone else's software??

When the tech group at Motorola had major trouble installing Trbo Locator (6 guys- all day),

I knew we were gonna have trouble. This is what happens when things get outsourced. :( :( :(

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escomm
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby escomm » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:43 pm

Maybe if they had an install manual that wasn't 600 pages of PDF files :lol:

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GEMOTO
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby GEMOTO » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:45 am

I have the MotoTrbo system planner, I has some good info on how the system works and about fleetmapping your system. Its quite interesting. Would someone be willing to host it if I e-mail it to them? Its not more then 5MB.

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fireradio
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby fireradio » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:09 am

I'd love to see it (and I can host it, too). I'm getting ready to deploy an in-building MotoTRBO system. I'll send you a PM with my email address.
Charlie - OSS
"Keeping public safety on the air..."

maelv
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby maelv » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:15 am

GEMOTO wrote:I have the MotoTrbo system planner, I has some good info on how the system works and about fleetmapping your system. Its quite interesting. Would someone be willing to host it if I e-mail it to them? Its not more then 5MB.



It is not necessary it is already online at Danimex

http://www.danimex.com/Default.aspx?ID=226

and direct link. http://www.danimex.com/Files/Filer/Prod ... lanner.pdf

Maelv

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby 1337MTech » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:45 pm

I haven't had time to really mess with the MotoTRBO system yet, though from initial messing around, theres a lot of neat stuff with this system. Yeah, somebody should probably slap me silly, we have 4 handhelds (2 non disp, 2 disp), 4 mobiles, and the repeater, as well as a load of Software. I've just been bogged down with radio repairs, so unfortunently, our TRBO stuff has sat in the stock room for over 4 months.

The system as a whole is totally different to me, so I got a lot of catching up to do, but this topic will definently be an interesting one to watch.

ve3nsv
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Re: Re:

Postby ve3nsv » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:24 pm

Latest version is build 67 here in North America, I am guessing yours will be the same since we just upgraded from build 59.

maelv wrote:
wavetar wrote:Anyone else run into this little 'bug' with the CPS?

I found that the factory programmed digital personality of course works. Now, try deleting the factory analog personality, and manually creating a second, third, fourth, etc, digital channel. By "manually", I mean right-click "Zone 1", and choose "new", "digital channel". It will put them in there...but they will NOT work...you just get an error tone when you attempt to transmit. Doesn't matter if you set it as a repeater channel, or a simplex channel. Also doesn't' matter which "repeater slot" you set it for. This happened with both of my demo portables, and the demo mobile.

I had to erase all but the factory digital personality, then highlight the personality, right-click it, and choose "copy". Then highlight "Zone 1", right-click it, and choose "paste". It will add it as the next channel, and it will then work!

This was with the latest "B" version of the CPS.

What a pain in the @ss...especially when I was trying to program the buggers the night before they were to be showcased at a convention.

Todd



I have just recieved my new mototrbo portabels DP3601 (euro versions) and have the same problem with my cps and it is (mototrbo cps v1.0 bulid 59)
so dos any one know if there is a newer version of the cps?
because when i have payed close to 260 USD for i think i should have a version without this problem.
and i have looked ind the cps but it dos not seem to have an online update funktion ?

and i am also looking for info about the GPIO pins for the portabels so i can test this funktions so dos any one have this info or how do i get it

Thanks
maelv

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chartofmaryland
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby chartofmaryland » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:42 pm

To who can answer this,

With all of these GREAT new features finally coming out, I have only one question, what equipment is a Two Way shop going to be able to afford that can properly tune TDMA transmitters and receivers ? How can we at a shop make sure that the transmitter is doing 6.25 kc and is operation on frequency ? We have a 2975 but did not notice TDMA as a form of modulation. The FCC is going to be dormaint for only so long before the splatter gets the point across.

CoM
If the lights are out when you leave the station and then come on the second you key up, you know you have enough power.

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Re: Re:

Postby dsotm » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:40 am

It's not a bug - you have to specify the 'Contact Name' under the TX side of the channel screen. It's just one of those new digital parameters that we don't have on the analog side.

The reason it works when you copy and paste from the sample file is that the sample file's sample channel was setup using a group call called 'Call1'. The CPS can't read our minds and know which Contact Name we want to use for new channels and it can't just use 'Call1' as the default for new channels because there's no guarantee that 'Call1' exists in a radio other than the example.

After you add all your digital channels you can use multiple-selection by clicking on your first digital channel in the treeview, hold down the shift key and then click on the last digital channel, now with all the digital channels selected, you can change the 'Contact Name' on the right hand side once and it will set it for all your digital channels at the same time.

Multiple-selection is a neat trick to change any other parameters for multiple channels.

ve3nsv wrote:Latest version is build 67 here in North America, I am guessing yours will be the same since we just upgraded from build 59.

maelv wrote:
wavetar wrote:Anyone else run into this little 'bug' with the CPS?

I found that the factory programmed digital personality of course works. Now, try deleting the factory analog personality, and manually creating a second, third, fourth, etc, digital channel. By "manually", I mean right-click "Zone 1", and choose "new", "digital channel". It will put them in there...but they will NOT work...you just get an error tone when you attempt to transmit. Doesn't matter if you set it as a repeater channel, or a simplex channel. Also doesn't' matter which "repeater slot" you set it for. This happened with both of my demo portables, and the demo mobile.

I had to erase all but the factory digital personality, then highlight the personality, right-click it, and choose "copy". Then highlight "Zone 1", right-click it, and choose "paste". It will add it as the next channel, and it will then work!

This was with the latest "B" version of the CPS.

What a pain in the @ss...especially when I was trying to program the buggers the night before they were to be showcased at a convention.

Todd



I have just recieved my new mototrbo portabels DP3601 (euro versions) and have the same problem with my cps and it is (mototrbo cps v1.0 bulid 59)
so dos any one know if there is a newer version of the cps?
because when i have payed close to 260 USD for i think i should have a version without this problem.
and i have looked ind the cps but it dos not seem to have an online update funktion ?

and i am also looking for info about the GPIO pins for the portabels so i can test this funktions so dos any one have this info or how do i get it

Thanks
maelv

maelv
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Re: Re:

Postby maelv » Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:27 am

dsotm wrote:It's not a bug - you have to specify the 'Contact Name' under the TX side of the channel screen. It's just one of those new digital parameters that we don't have on the analog side.

The reason it works when you copy and paste from the sample file is that the sample file's sample channel was setup using a group call called 'Call1'. The CPS can't read our minds and know which Contact Name we want to use for new channels and it can't just use 'Call1' as the default for new channels because there's no guarantee that 'Call1' exists in a radio other than the example.

After you add all your digital channels you can use multiple-selection by clicking on your first digital channel in the treeview, hold down the shift key and then click on the last digital channel, now with all the digital channels selected, you can change the 'Contact Name' on the right hand side once and it will set it for all your digital channels at the same time.

Multiple-selection is a neat trick to change any other parameters for multiple channels.




YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT
Thanks dsotm for your reply that relly help me.!!!!!!!
it was an programming error from my side.. maybee it is because i have never used the motorola cps before :o

Thank Maelv

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wavetar
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Re: Re:

Postby wavetar » Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:32 am

maelv wrote:
dsotm wrote:It's not a bug - you have to specify the 'Contact Name' under the TX side of the channel screen. It's just one of those new digital parameters that we don't have on the analog side.

The reason it works when you copy and paste from the sample file is that the sample file's sample channel was setup using a group call called 'Call1'. The CPS can't read our minds and know which Contact Name we want to use for new channels and it can't just use 'Call1' as the default for new channels because there's no guarantee that 'Call1' exists in a radio other than the example.

After you add all your digital channels you can use multiple-selection by clicking on your first digital channel in the treeview, hold down the shift key and then click on the last digital channel, now with all the digital channels selected, you can change the 'Contact Name' on the right hand side once and it will set it for all your digital channels at the same time.

Multiple-selection is a neat trick to change any other parameters for multiple channels.




YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT
Thanks dsotm for your reply that relly help me.!!!!!!!
it was an programming error from my side.. maybee it is because i have never used the motorola cps before :o

Thank Maelv


Yes, thank you. You'd think an hour on the phone with Moto tech support would've brought that little tidbit out at the time, but it didn't. I found out later on that you can't have "none" as the contact name, but didn't put 2 & 2 together & check to see if that's what happened when adding channels.

Todd
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escomm
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby escomm » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:33 pm

btw, CPS 2.0 is out already :o

maelv
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby maelv » Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:33 am

escomm wrote:btw, CPS 2.0 is out already :o



What is new i CPS 2.0 ?

just bug fixing or any news ?

Maelv

10-4Communications
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby 10-4Communications » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:20 am

A big hello to everyone here....
and a question. Does anyone know the product numbers for all the server software for /\/\OTOTRBO and if it's possible, pricing? We got 2 mobiles, 2portables and a repeater for testing and with a lot of packet sniffing and getting our hands dirty with UDP protocol, we reached a good level of knowledge. But the local dealer here in Greece doesn't know anything for the server's software and for us is essential to continue the migration from the analogish 5-tone systems and software to /\/\OTOTRBO for our costumers.
Please, please, please any help will be appreciated.

slavik
Posts: 58
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby slavik » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:42 am

Question to all:

As you estimate{appreciate} quality of transfer voice through mototrbo,
especially recognition of the one who speaks (more especially for female voice?

10-4Communications
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby 10-4Communications » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 am

If your question is about the audio's quality in digital mode my answer is ... great! Whatever you might expect from a low bitrate vocoder i.e. no background noise, almost 600-700ms audio delay e.t.c., but compared to other analog radio's audio ... crystal clear!

slavik
Posts: 58
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby slavik » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:33 am

Yes, the voice in digital mode does not contain noise, all speech sounds cleanly ...
but in 60-70 % of cases we cannot define (understand) who speak (the timbre of speech is strongly changed).
Dealers in Russia, who tests a demo Mototrbo, this bad effect have confirmed all. The reason of this effect is not clear.

ems-280
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby ems-280 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:41 am

i'm diggin the usb cables.

has anyone used the text messaging feature on the radio to send/recieve CAD dispatch information yet, for emergency first responders?

i'm lookin to get more intel on the radio, and then propose it to my agency and see if we can budget some money for an upgrade.

Lt Holderle
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby Lt Holderle » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:03 pm

A few quick questions , First is can you recieve any quick calls or selective calls in the digital mode ? For example paging tones , ect be done in digital or strictly analog ? A department i work for is considering getting a few demo units for testing purposes. Any thoughts appreciated.

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wkr518
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby wkr518 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:40 am

Lt Holderle wrote:A few quick questions , First is can you recieve any quick calls or selective calls in the digital mode ? For example paging tones , ect be done in digital or strictly analog ? A department i work for is considering getting a few demo units for testing purposes. Any thoughts appreciated.


In Display XRP6500 models there is no tone capable QCII features in either analog or digital
You can encode/decode MDC1200 in analog for Emergency,Call Alert and PTT ID
Once you are in digital mode on digital system you can do more Calling Features.

Hope this helps.

Wayne
nothing

ve3nsv
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby ve3nsv » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:03 pm

Here is a little sample of TRBO to Analog recorded from the analog side of a CDR-500 range extender. We managed to get a solid COR using the audio amp trigger that Wavetar discovered with a simple circuit our shop designed which we will post the schematic to here shortly.

Radio has been interfaced to a Rick controller and an IP-223 with this COR circuit with 100% success.

TRBO Digital to Analog sample

Sorry for the semi poor signal, analog side is only using an indoor antenna at low power and is a few miles away.

ve3nsv
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby ve3nsv » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:16 pm

Here is another sample with the audio adjusted properly as I was over driving the soundcard a little.

This example has one of the units (Unit 10) coming across the net from a satellite campus aprox 40 miles from the main campus. Remote campus is a GR1225 repeater interfaced directly to an IP-223 and main campus has IP-223 interfaced to an XPR-4550 which accesses the main TRBO repeater. The recordings are from a range extender at another campus aprox 10 miles from the main campus with poor in building coverage. In the range extender is an XPR-4550 for the main TRBO repeater access back to the main campus and a CDM750 for the in building coverage.

When you hear unit 10 talking it will be Analog to Digital and back to Analog again.

Analog to Digital to Analog Sample

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zulu
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby zulu » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:09 am

Anyone else got any TRBO digital recordings.
I am fascinated with it.
Anyone know how much units cost now?
Anyone got any seconds for sale or know of any?
"Say what you mean, Mean what you say."

RKG
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Re:

Postby RKG » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:38 am

wiscomm wrote:
wavetar wrote:we've already sold a complete portable/mobile/repeater system to a customer. All radio hardware has arrived & we'll be setting it up for them in the next little while.


How do you have this licensed? My guy who handles my licensing gave this response to the question

The biggest concern I have is with the continuous transmit. That just doesn't fit well on "shared" frequencies. I believe this will have to
be licensed under the provisions for "exclusive" use as trunking systems are (FB8 station class). This means that in a given area there are no
other licensees and will be no other licensees. In a heavily populated area it is almost impossible to get those kind of licenses for wide area operation; there are still some possibilities for lower power/height campus type systems. I suppose it would fit well on the 454/459 MHz wide area licenses that were sold at auction.


Just wondering if anyone has any more light on this?

Craig



Apologies if someone has since answered this, but here goes:

The MT repeater performs two distinct functions: (a) it repeats subscriber transmissions of voice and command data packets, and (b) it provides a synchronization pulse. Since in digital repeat mode, shared access is mapped to time slots, there must be a means by which subscriber units all know when each slot starts and stops. Supervisory synchronization is required because the MT subscriber equipment is not capable of "self-supervision" (contrast marine AIS).

In the absence of synchronization -- say the repeater has been unkeyed for a while -- a subscriber unit that wants to send a group call ISW must first "waken" the repeater to provide synch data, and this increases attack time. On the other hand, unless the licensee has an exclusive use channel (and perhaps even then), leaving the repeater "up" continuously is likely to get one in trouble.

How you handle this issue is by setting a repeater parameter called "Subscriber Inactivity Timer." Basically, this timer is reset each time the repeater detects a voice or data transmit request, and the repeater stays up until the timer runs out. The MT "System Planner" describes the strategy for setting the Subscriber Inactivity Timer in these terms:

"The Subscriber Inactivity Timer (SIT) controls how long the repeater will continue transmitting with the absence of subscriber actdivity on the [input frequency]. If the repeater is operating on shared-use frequencies, it cannot remain keyed indefinitely for the benefit of broadcasting synchronization signals to subscriber units. The repeater will likely be dekeyed most of the time[,] thereby requiring subscriber units to first activitate [ed. note: split infinitive] the repeater (via the [input] frequency) and acquire synchronization (via the [output] frequency) before completing the call setup request and subsequent first transmission. The net result of these extra procedures is increased access time; therefore, it is desirable to avoid these steps, whenever possible. There is a trade-off to minimizing access time by keeping the repeater keyed for as long as practically possible, while complying with the regulations regarding shared-use channels, which essentially require the repeater to dekey when the channel is not in use. This can be balanced with the used of the Subscriber Inactivity Timer. If shared use is not a concern, the SIT can be set for the maximum value. If shared use is a concern, the SIT should be set equal to or slightly longer than the configured call hang timers." (Page 129.)

Note that the "call hang timer" in MT is not the same as the traditional repeater "tail" timer. The repeater will shut down audio as soon as a subscriber unkeys, but it will reserve the talk path for replies by members of the same talkgroup for the duration of the call hang timer, and if another talkgroup member attempts to transmit before the call hang timer has expired, he will get a busy signal. As a result, if the norm for tail timers is on the order of 2-4 seconds, the call hang timer should probably be at least 2 to 4 times as long.

In the United States, there are no exclusive use channels below 470 mHz (which at the moment is the upper limit of the UHF MT repeater); as a result, a grossly extended SIT would be legitimate (if then) only in the case of low-power, in-building systems that are not expected to be heard outside of a given building or beyond the boundaries of a given campus. As a complete default, so far I have used 60 seconds for the SIT; which I concede is utterly arbitrary. I'd be interested if anyone has established some different rule of thumb (and the basis for it).

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Re:

Postby RKG » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:39 am

wiscomm wrote:
wavetar wrote:we've already sold a complete portable/mobile/repeater system to a customer. All radio hardware has arrived & we'll be setting it up for them in the next little while.


How do you have this licensed? My guy who handles my licensing gave this response to the question

The biggest concern I have is with the continuous transmit. That just doesn't fit well on "shared" frequencies. I believe this will have to
be licensed under the provisions for "exclusive" use as trunking systems are (FB8 station class). This means that in a given area there are no
other licensees and will be no other licensees. In a heavily populated area it is almost impossible to get those kind of licenses for wide area operation; there are still some possibilities for lower power/height campus type systems. I suppose it would fit well on the 454/459 MHz wide area licenses that were sold at auction.


Just wondering if anyone has any more light on this?

Craig



Apologies if someone has since answered this, but here goes:

The MT repeater performs two distinct functions: (a) it repeats subscriber transmissions of voice and command data packets, and (b) it provides a synchronization pulse. Since in digital repeat mode, shared access is mapped to time slots, there must be a means by which subscriber units all know when each slot starts and stops. Supervisory synchronization is required because the MT subscriber equipment is not capable of "self-supervision" (contrast marine AIS).

In the absence of synchronization -- say the repeater has been unkeyed for a while -- a subscriber unit that wants to send a group call ISW must first "waken" the repeater to provide synch data, and this increases attack time. On the other hand, unless the licensee has an exclusive use channel (and perhaps even then), leaving the repeater "up" continuously is likely to get one in trouble.

How you handle this issue is by setting a repeater parameter called "Subscriber Inactivity Timer." Basically, this timer is reset each time the repeater detects a voice or data transmit request, and the repeater stays up until the timer runs out. The MT "System Planner" describes the strategy for setting the Subscriber Inactivity Timer in these terms:

"The Subscriber Inactivity Timer (SIT) controls how long the repeater will continue transmitting with the absence of subscriber actdivity on the [input frequency]. If the repeater is operating on shared-use frequencies, it cannot remain keyed indefinitely for the benefit of broadcasting synchronization signals to subscriber units. The repeater will likely be dekeyed most of the time[,] thereby requiring subscriber units to first activitate [ed. note: split infinitive] the repeater (via the [input] frequency) and acquire synchronization (via the [output] frequency) before completing the call setup request and subsequent first transmission. The net result of these extra procedures is increased access time; therefore, it is desirable to avoid these steps, whenever possible. There is a trade-off to minimizing access time by keeping the repeater keyed for as long as practically possible, while complying with the regulations regarding shared-use channels, which essentially require the repeater to dekey when the channel is not in use. This can be balanced with the used of the Subscriber Inactivity Timer. If shared use is not a concern, the SIT can be set for the maximum value. If shared use is a concern, the SIT should be set equal to or slightly longer than the configured call hang timers." (Page 129.)

Note that the "call hang timer" in MT is not the same as the traditional repeater "tail" timer. The repeater will shut down audio as soon as a subscriber unkeys, but it will reserve the talk path for replies by members of the same talkgroup for the duration of the call hang timer, and if another talkgroup member attempts to transmit before the call hang timer has expired, he will get a busy signal. As a result, if the norm for tail timers is on the order of 2-4 seconds, the call hang timer should probably be at least 2 to 4 times as long.

In the United States, there are no exclusive use channels below 470 mHz (which at the moment is the upper limit of the UHF MT repeater); as a result, a grossly extended SIT would be legitimate (if then) only in the case of low-power, in-building systems that are not expected to be heard outside of a given building or beyond the boundaries of a given campus.

Now having said all of that, my version of the MT CPS limits the range of the SIT to 7000 msec (seven seconds), and I'm hardpressed to see how a 7-second tail could be a license or interference problem.
Last edited by RKG on Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby RKG » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:50 am

chartofmaryland wrote:To who can answer this,

With all of these GREAT new features finally coming out, I have only one question, what equipment is a Two Way shop going to be able to afford that can properly tune TDMA transmitters and receivers ? How can we at a shop make sure that the transmitter is doing 6.25 kc and is operation on frequency ? We have a 2975 but did not notice TDMA as a form of modulation. The FCC is going to be dormaint for only so long before the splatter gets the point across.

CoM


1. MT doesn't really operate in digital repeat mode on a 6.25 kHz channel; rather it operates on a 12.5 kHz channel but sums the digitally represented content of two simultaneous voice (or voice and data) transmissions into the modulation that is put out on that channel. That is why Motorola describes MT as "6.25 kHz equivalent efficiency," rather than as using true 6.25 kHz channel width.

2. As implemented by MT, TDMA is not a form of modulation, but rather of data packing. The modulation type is "FXE", which is essentially FSK.

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby jgilkey » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:43 am

Anyone know when the 470Mhz upper limit is going to be raised? Many of the local fire departments here are in the 473-478Mhz range. Was there a specific reason they stopped at 470?

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby wavetar » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:03 pm

jgilkey wrote:Anyone know when the 470Mhz upper limit is going to be raised? Many of the local fire departments here are in the 473-478Mhz range. Was there a specific reason they stopped at 470?


I would imagine the plan is to put out 450-520MHz models in the future, as Motorola has done with most of their platforms.
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby kd5hqf » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:22 pm

Just ran across this thread, Will these radios do ham? vhf avail? how much should I expect to pay?
Please don't be to hard on me just learning motorola gear. I currently on a xts2.5 vhf I got from doug, and to mcs 2000's
I run in my truck I love the interop's for my fire dept. and also for my ham.
(I love me some Moto)!!!! Thanks if anyone could pm me about pricing and operabillity that would be great!!

Rod 73'sss

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby n7maq » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:23 pm

kd5hqf wrote:Just ran across this thread, Will these radios do ham? vhf avail? how much should I expect to pay?
Please don't be to hard on me just learning motorola gear. I currently on a xts2.5 vhf I got from doug, and to mcs 2000's
I run in my truck I love the interop's for my fire dept. and also for my ham.
(I love me some Moto)!!!! Thanks if anyone could pm me about pricing and operabillity that would be great!!

Rod 73'sss



Rod, well they may cover ham freqs, in the digital mode it would not be legal on the ham bands as it in not an open protocol unlike P25.


Jim

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby HumHead » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:51 pm

n7maq wrote:Rod, well they may cover ham freqs, in the digital mode it would not be legal on the ham bands as it in not an open protocol unlike P25.


Huh?

ETSI-TS102 361-1 is every bit as much an open standard as P25.

That's like saying that P25 and D-Star are illegal in the ham bands because you can't communicate on them with a CSQ only tube set.

To the best of my knowledge, unlike P25, the ETSI standard used by the MOTOTRBO series doesn't even support encryption.
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby n7maq » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:30 pm

HumHead wrote:
n7maq wrote:Rod, well they may cover ham freqs, in the digital mode it would not be legal on the ham bands as it in not an open protocol unlike P25.


Huh?

ETSI-TS102 361-1 is every bit as much an open standard as P25.

That's like saying that P25 and D-Star are illegal in the ham bands because you can't communicate on them with a CSQ only tube set.

To the best of my knowledge, unlike P25, the ETSI standard used by the MOTOTRBO series doesn't even support encryption.


I humbly stand corrected. :oops:

Jim

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby kd5hqf » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:52 pm

Thanks guy's fixing to get a vhf model and play around with it will try to convince some budies to do the same but the digital part about this is I don't think anyone in my area "north texas would even have this radio or know what it is? they all use readily avail. ham stuff I'm different I love moto gear, In my opinion it has better recieve and almost no intermod whereas
I have tried all of the storebought ham mobiles and the proof is in the pudding" Iknow I spend alot more for moto, But thats what I like!!!!! Plus I also use for the F.D. and I don't like moding ham gear obviosly not ment to go there.

Thanks for the returns I will be back

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby n7maq » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:10 pm

kd5hqf wrote:Thanks guy's fixing to get a vhf model and play around with it will try to convince some budies to do the same but the digital part about this is I don't think anyone in my area "north texas would even have this radio or know what it is? they all use readily avail. ham stuff I'm different I love moto gear, In my opinion it has better recieve and almost no intermod whereas
I have tried all of the storebought ham mobiles and the proof is in the pudding" Iknow I spend alot more for moto, But thats what I like!!!!! Plus I also use for the F.D. and I don't like moding ham gear obviosly not ment to go there.

Thanks for the returns I will be back



You should be able to get a few hams to do it. But as you know most hams are a bit "frugal". Mike Gilbert had his radio (the one pictured at he beginning of this post) set up on our table Puyallup hamfest this year. It drew a lot of interest, but Mike did not have it up for sale. I have been able to get some into P25 around here. I have 2 mixed mode Quantars (1 VHF, 1 UHF) the Salem club has put up 2 Quantars (they don't like them to be used for P25 though, and only one is in mixed mode) and a friend in Eugene 80 miles south has 3 mixed mode Quantars up on the ham bands. You may have to by an extra radio to loan out. Let us know how the locals respond.

Jim

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby ve3nsv » Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:58 am

I don't imagine you will be happy with the analog performance of the TRBO radios. The receive audio is as bad or worse then an amateur grade radio.

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Re: Re:

Postby RKG » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:15 am

wavetar wrote:
maelv wrote:
dsotm wrote:It's not a bug - you have to specify the 'Contact Name' under the TX side of the channel screen. It's just one of those new digital parameters that we don't have on the analog side.

The reason it works when you copy and paste from the sample file is that the sample file's sample channel was setup using a group call called 'Call1'. The CPS can't read our minds and know which Contact Name we want to use for new channels and it can't just use 'Call1' as the default for new channels because there's no guarantee that 'Call1' exists in a radio other than the example.

After you add all your digital channels you can use multiple-selection by clicking on your first digital channel in the treeview, hold down the shift key and then click on the last digital channel, now with all the digital channels selected, you can change the 'Contact Name' on the right hand side once and it will set it for all your digital channels at the same time.

Multiple-selection is a neat trick to change any other parameters for multiple channels.




YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT
Thanks dsotm for your reply that relly help me.!!!!!!!
it was an programming error from my side.. maybee it is because i have never used the motorola cps before :o

Thank Maelv


Yes, thank you. You'd think an hour on the phone with Moto tech support would've brought that little tidbit out at the time, but it didn't. I found out later on that you can't have "none" as the contact name, but didn't put 2 & 2 together & check to see if that's what happened when adding channels.

Todd



MotoTRBO (and its programming) is a bit of a new concept for most of us. Actually, a couple of hours spent going over the "System Planner" is helpful.

MT uses the concept of "talkgroups," which are logical channels (as opposed to physical channels) comprised of a group of users whose function means that each should hear the transmissions of all. This is similar, at least logically, to "talkgroups" in a SmartNet trunked system.

However, the similarity does not extend to the physical. In a conventional system, of course, there is a perfect overlap between logical channels and physical channels. In a trunked system, logical channels remain logical until a group call channel grant OSW is issued, at which point the subscriber equipment of the members of the logical channel all shift to the deployed voice repeater, which makes up a concurrent physical channel.

In MT, there are only two physical channels, represented by the A and B time slots on a two-slot TDMA digital voice system. A "talkgroup" is defined by its TGID; when a user presses his PTT, his radio (vs. the controller in a trunked system) sends an instruction (via a data packet) to all other radios on his time slot saying, in effect, "If you are listening to this TGID, open audio."

While this can be changed by programming, in the usual set up, once a given TGID issues an audio call, the "channel" (i.e., the time slot) is preempted for use by only that TGID for a given period of time; any other TGID on the same slot will get a "denied" tone if a member tries to key up until the preemption timer times out. Interestingly, this preemption is handled by the software in the subscriber equipment: except for TDMA slot synchronization, there is no supervisory control effected by the MT repeater itself.

Now, here's a wrinkle. When you define a "talkgroup" in a subscriber radio, you also have to define the "talkgroups" that the radio will hear when selected up on this entry, and you have to define the "talkgroups" that will be addressed by a group call command issued by that radio. In theory, you can have a "talkgroup" hear more than itself and address more than itself. At least with respect to true group definitions (i.e., what is sometimes called "one-to-many" and sometimes called "dispatch radio"), there is no reason for doing this. MT permits scanning of multiple TGs.

Therefore, RKG's Rule #1 for MT programming: When defining a TG, the "Rx Group" and the "Tx Group" should each consist of a single entry, namely the same TG.

If there is a reason for all of this (beyond the fact that the MT programming may well be the brain-child of some 20-year old raised on PC games), it is that both group definitions for true talkgroups and individual or "private" definitions for the MT equivalent of the SmartNet Private Call ISW are defined on the same page. That is to say, you can have a channel slot in your radio that, when you select it and then key, brings up only Fred's radio.

A couple of things to bear in mind. Unlike trunked radio, physical channels cannot be assigned on the fly, and a TG that "homes" to TDMA Slot A cannot utilize Slot B if Slot A is otherwise in use. Rather, on any given "channel" in the selector list, a MT subscriber unit is dedicated to one Slot or the other, and if the Slot is in use, the radio cannot transmit. (Again, barge-ins can be allowed by programming, but in general the statement made is true.) From this perspective, "talkgroups" in MT bear a strong resemblance to "talkgroups" in conventional (i.e., non-trunked) Astro 25. These, in turn, probably derive from the concept behind QC or MDC "selective calls," though control is via data packets, not signalling tones.

Now, if I've put a bunch of folks to sleep, sorry; this is all new. I cannot overemphasize that someone breaking in to MT would do well (and save himself a lot of headaches) by investing a couple of hours to read (and re-read) the "System Planner."

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby a_j_b » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 am

ve3nsv wrote:I don't imagine you will be happy with the analog performance of the TRBO radios. The receive audio is as bad or worse then an amateur grade radio.


I was using a TRBO in analog on a local ham repeater last night. The audio was pretty good. I had my HT1550XLS next to me to compare audio quality. The XLS was producing more background noise/static and high pitch scratches while the TRBO was cleaning up the audio and focusing on the voice it was receiving. Even in analog mode, there is a delay receiving audio while the TRBO cleans it up before unmuting it.
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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby mr.syntrx » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:04 am

HumHead wrote:ETSI-TS102 361-1 is every bit as much an open standard as P25.


Arguably more open, because you can get the specs for free. P25 = $$$$ unless you work for a government agency.

HumHead wrote:To the best of my knowledge, unlike P25, the ETSI standard used by the MOTOTRBO series doesn't even support encryption.


That's correct.

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby k5rpd » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:10 pm

I am doing some research about the MotoTRBO system for possible deployment for my agency...
Is anyone using MotoTRBO for a data type application? I am familiar with the GPS locater and the Text Message applications by Motorola- I am wondering about using the data for other things. How much throughput is it capable of? And is the system platform even able to pass data yet?
Thanks
JJ Smith

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby RKG » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:45 am

1. Yes, the data function is integral and functional.

2. The issue is applications to frame, send, receive and apply data. My read of the "Systems Planner" is that Motorola is counting on third parties to develop such applications.

3. The big issue with data over Mototurbo is channel grabbing. Somewhat simplified, MT divides a 12.5 KHz channel into two 6.25 KHz equivalent channels, via TDMA. These are known as Slot A and Slot B. Since the voice is digitially encoded (AMBE), everything over either "channel" is digital. However, the slots are not "trunked;" any given access (voice talkgroup or data application) is limited to one Slot or the other, and if its designated Slot is busy, it does not hunt over to the other one. In addition, what M calls digital data (versus digital voice) is (at least at the moment) limited to Slot B. This presents a big issue about data access duty cycle: if the data is too dominant, the Slot will never be available for anything else. There is a substantial, and somewhat helpful, discussion of this in the "System Planner."

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Re: MotoTRBO. You saw it here first!!!!

Postby jgilkey » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:35 am

Hi k5rpd, I am working on a data app using the MotoTRBO radios. Lots of network sniffing involved. Motorola wants me to send them a demo before letting me in the MotoTRBO developer program. Kind of a catch-22, can't create a proper app without being in the program, but I can't get into the program without an app. I am making some headway though, just don't have access to the location info yet.

Joe


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