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Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Have a question or information regarding interfacing or interoperating Motorola digital radios with models from other manufacturers? Here's the place to do so.

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blackrifleguy
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:41 am

Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby blackrifleguy » Sun May 04, 2008 5:17 am

My general question is this:

Is the encryption used in a Motorola Astro Saber compatable with Ma/Com encryption?

To explain:

My county is switching to a Ma/Com, P25, digital, trunked radio system in the T-band. The county's police tactical team will be using this new system, but with encryption. My tactical medics suport this team but need to supply our own radio (Long story). We already have a Motorola Astro Saber (With encryption) for another team we support and it fits all the general parameters for the new radio system but nobody can tell us if the Motorola and Ma/Com encryption is compatable.

I am now dipping into the Batboard's well of knowledge for a straight answer.

Thanks in advance.

libuff
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:21 pm

Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby libuff » Mon May 05, 2008 8:46 pm

i would loosely answer, depending on the encryption scheme. i believe, although no formal education supports this, that if they are using DES on the p25, system, then any DES on such system with the correct code would work.

having said, that, my disclaimer is that you have received information about encryption, from someone who is FAR more knowledgeable of other facets, than encryption. :D

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Wowbagger
Aeroflex
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Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby Wowbagger » Tue May 06, 2008 5:57 am

APCO-25 calls out 4 forms of encryption:
None
Single DES (56 bit key) (most of your smaller shops)
Triple DES (168 bit key) (not commonly used)
AES (up to 256 bit key) (the big boys like the FBI, Secret Service, etc.)

As far as I know, the MA-COM system is truly APCO-25 compliant, so will be running either DES or AES. If your radio will do those protocols, and has the right key(s), it should work.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.

I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.

I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.

cablemonkey
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:23 am

Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby cablemonkey » Fri May 09, 2008 7:03 am

The ALGID identifi es the encryption algorithm used in the P25 system.

The ALGID is entered through a Key Management Facility or Key Loader when entering encryption keys.

The ALGID’s that have been defined for Type 1 algorithms are:

$00 ACCORDION 1.3
$01 BATON (Auto Even)
$02 FIREFLY Type 1
$03 MAYFLY Type 1
$04 SAVILLE
$41 BATON (Auto Odd)
$80 Unencrypted message (no encryption algorithm)
$81 DES-OFB encryption algorithm
$82 2-key triple DES encryption algorithm
$83 3-key triple DES encryption algorithm
$84 AES encryption algorithm

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Wowbagger
Aeroflex
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Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby Wowbagger » Fri May 09, 2008 11:51 am

Prior to earlier today, I'd never heard of anybody running anything other than DES/3DES/AES/Clear - while the other ALGIDs are defined I've never seen any requests from anybody to support them.

Then there is the mysterious 9F Cablemonkey had reported in another thread - we'll see if Motorola will tell me what that is (and if I will be able to tell you all.)
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.

I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.

I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.

tvsjr
Posts: 4113
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:46 am

Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby tvsjr » Fri May 09, 2008 12:11 pm

Wowbagger wrote:Prior to earlier today, I'd never heard of anybody running anything other than DES/3DES/AES/Clear - while the other ALGIDs are defined I've never seen any requests from anybody to support them.

Then there is the mysterious 9F Cablemonkey had reported in another thread - we'll see if Motorola will tell me what that is (and if I will be able to tell you all.)


Considering it seems the type 1 algos are included in a UCM along with AES/DESOFB, those users may simply be doing any testing/alignment using a type 3 algorithm, then switching over to type 1. If the radio is aligned properly and working with a type 3 algo, it should work fine with a type 1 - and it would keep you from having to deal with the CCI mess on a publicly-available service monitor.

There are definitely users in the wild making use of type 1 algos like SAVILLE, BATON, etc.

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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby Elroy Jetson » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:18 pm

There is also a type 1 encryption type called PADSTONE.

I don't know anything about it other than the name alone.


Except that it's never a good thing to find an XTS5K with the extra bolt head in the rear casting, where the circular feature in the
casting is normally located, about an inch from the bottom. That extra bolt head means "CCI", every time, as I understand it.


Elroy

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mancow
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Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby mancow » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:42 pm

I thought that bolt thing was just something to do with the submersible option. I'm looking at my 5KR right now and it has it.

akardam
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:53 am

Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby akardam » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:44 pm

Elroy Jetson wrote:That extra bolt head means "CCI", every time, as I understand it.

Then your understanding is wrong. As mancow pointed out, that "bolt" is the vacuum port for ruggedized radios which are all rated to withstand a certian level of submersion.

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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby Elroy Jetson » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:40 am

Then I've learned something new today. That makes it a good day. Thanks!

I've only seen that bolt on CCI radios to this point. Which would explain why I associated the one with the other.


Elroy

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mr.syntrx
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Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby mr.syntrx » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:20 pm

tvsjr wrote:and it would keep you from having to deal with the CCI mess on a publicly-available service monitor.


Or more specifically, classification issues (the service monitor would become a classified item, unless it's designed in such a way as to allow it to be handled as UNCLASSIFIED CCI when unkeyed.)

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Twisted_Pear
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Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby Twisted_Pear » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:31 pm

A CCI XTS5000 has a CCI serialized sticker on the bottom where "ASTRO" normally is and the VOCON board has a PN for the Type I version (IIRC the MOL terminology). The CCI module has the same enc board size but it vastly different in components (it has a coin battery strapped to it, which is the obvious difference). I did't notice anything else different.

5-sides
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:49 am

Re: Motorola and Ma/Com Encryption.

Postby 5-sides » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:04 pm

Maestro consoles only support AES encryption, at least they were incapable of DES-OFB back in 2004. I don't see Tyco re-visiting older standards....

Also, Moto DES-XL was/is proprietary, so M/A-Com equipment could not work with it.
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