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XG-100

Have a question or information regarding interfacing or interoperating Motorola digital radios with models from other manufacturers? Here's the place to do so.

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DocHolliday
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XG-100

Postby DocHolliday » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:50 am

Is anyone familiar with the Harris Unity XG-100 radios or the RF-1033M?

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Re: XG-100

Postby DocHolliday » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:52 am

Well I done some more research on the XG-100 and that seems to be a nice portable.
Has 5 public safety bands in 1 radio
analog and full p25 apco digital
aes&des encrytp
covers from 136-870mgh
Price will probably be the issue there with this unit.

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Re: XG-100

Postby Tom in D.C. » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:46 pm

Most of us on this Board are very familiar at this point with the new generation of
triband (for want of a better word) public service portables. There is an extensive
set of posts on here about the Thales Liberty, along with photos, some specs, and
even a few firsthand "I actually held one of these" reports. Far as we know at this
time there may be a few units in the field but certainly not many. Price is projected to
be in the $4-$6K range which compares favorably with the current Motorola single-
band XTS portables. The Harris XG-100 looks so much like a Thales Liberty that it could
be its brother, but not much about the Harris unit has been covered here.
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Re: XG-100

Postby DocHolliday » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:18 pm

Ok Thanks for the info Tom.
Whew those kinda of price tags I figure they wont be to many sales..LOL

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Re: XG-100

Postby Tom in D.C. » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:47 pm

Not many sales, at first, to those of us who are what you might call "casual users" of these kinds of radios, but the public service agencies will eat them up. Motorola has a similar unit about to go into the market, the APX-7000, which also has a companion mobile unit. The 7000 right now doesn't cover UHF but does cover VHF, 700, and 800 mHz. Despite all of the noise that has been made about the need for interoperability of radios in public service systems, almost nothing has been done about the problem until now. These new radios represent a breakthrough which should allow true interoperability between agencies. At least that's what we're all hoping is the case.

It took a few years for the XTS5000 radios to "filter down" to the ham and casual user market but it did happen and I think it will with the XG-100, Liberty, and APX-7000 radios.
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Re: XG-100

Postby radioinstl » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Well Harris was at the NDIA show in VA on Wednesday, and at this point the only XG-100 they have is a plastic mock up with a cell phone screen running off a SD card inside. no working radio, antenna or battery, the top display is only a sticker at this point. The RF-1033 is still not avail to non government users (no FCC acceptance). These are the same displays they have been showing since APCO.

I think we are a LONG way off from seeing a working XG-100, and from what the Harris people said, it will be a long time till the RF-1033 is FCC accepted.

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Re: XG-100

Postby DocHolliday » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:47 am

After all the info I have seen and obtained so far and after talking to them on the phone, it is gonna take major grants ect to even think about getting one of those because of the prices, noone is gonna be able to afford one, so looks like most agencies with end up still using multiple radios for different band coverages.
Single band radios perform better than multiple ones and less problems and at least with single band radios, if one radio would go down you still have the other bands in emergency situation and not be out of luck with only one radio with everything in it.

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Re: XG-100

Postby Tom in D.C. » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:38 am

Let's get some correct facts on the record here, so as to not mislead anyone who is not that
familiar with this issue:

1. It is common for agencies to spend $4K to $6K each for portable radios.
2. There is still a fair amount of grant money around to buy them.
3. Manufacturers such as Harris, Thales, and Motorola do not spend
millions on development with the expectation of not selling any of
the new product. They research their markets carefully before
committing all that money to new products.
4. There are a lot, and I mean a lot, of "casual" users who own and use
the Motorola XTS radios. It has taken only a few years for these units
to filter down to the non-government, private, level. The original cost
such units was $3K to $6K each. Today they're $500 to $1,500 each.
5. No one wants to carry two radios, obviously. The basic reasons for the
development of these new multiband radios is to achieve interoperability
and safety. When the units do go into service I'm certain they will work
well and will experience the same amount of glitches as any new electronic
product does these days. Design-wise, things occur during development
that are sometimes difficult to understand, such as Motorola's leaving the
450-512 UHF band out of their APX-7000 radios, but now would appear to
be the right time for serious users to make their preferences known to the
manufacturers.
6. In years past, any company that touted a new product but was unable to
show a working prototype was criticized for selling what was called
"vaporware." Apparently things haven't changed much, and in my opinion
the "Just wait, boys; it'll be a great product when it gets here!" is still not a
good way to build a company's reputation.
Tom in D.C.
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Re: XG-100

Postby radioinstl » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:03 am

DocHolliday wrote:After all the info I have seen and obtained so far and after talking to them on the phone, it is gonna take major grants ect to even think about getting one of those because of the prices, noone is gonna be able to afford one, so looks like most agencies with end up still using multiple radios for different band coverages.
Single band radios perform better than multiple ones and less problems and at least with single band radios, if one radio would go down you still have the other bands in emergency situation and not be out of luck with only one radio with everything in it.


I will very much disagree with this statement. The Thales Liberty performance will match if not exceed the specs of almost most all current P25 single band radios out there and if you look at the long term performance of the Thales radios in general, I think you will find it has a much lower down time / repair issues than other radios out there.

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Re: XG-100

Postby DocHolliday » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:43 am

Any product or electronics somewhere down the road is gonna have their problems, but some more than others.
It will be a long wait on that xg-100 to spring out there and then another long wait before seeing any lower prices like the xts radios.

I like the xts 5000 but seems like everytime a real good deal comes up on one it catches at the wrong time.
I have a friend that got lucky and got a superb deal on a xts5000 for $550 and he got everything with it incuding a extra battery and pgm cord, carrying case etc.

So guess the right time and right place with the green.

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Re: XG-100

Postby HauseMan » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:42 pm

A PDF brochure/spec sheet has finally come out, showing a little more detail on the XG-100. Although I didn't care for the contrasting keypad and front surround (I like black), the radio as a whole ROCKS. Competition makes things better, and Motorola needs to play some serious catchup. The APX-7000, lacking UHF, just won't do.

The Harris takes some getting used to, because of some language differences in their literature. First of all, a "waveform" does not mean "analog", "digital", or P25, but simply "sine", "modified-sine", or "square". Harris's literature had me stumped for the first few reads. Also, the XG-100 will hold 12,500 channels, but only in "mission files" of `1,250 channels each active at any one time. So, that's totally wild....let's see Motorola do that on an XTS, as good as those are.

What I do not know, is whether the "Unity" (or even the RF-1033M) will do any or all of the ANI formats. I know that's a bit out of style these days, but such could still come in handy. Anybody else know ?

The newest documentation also indicates the XG-100 will do FPP, which is really nice.

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Re: XG-100

Postby bobw927 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:26 am

If you have the Money Can we Buy this Unity XG-100? I want one.
Saber 2-3 astro's

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:15 pm

It has been type accepted and has begun to ship it's orders.

Here's a link to the user manual submitted to the FCC:
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=1235579&native_or_pdf=pdf

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Re: XG-100

Postby WCHija » Mon May 17, 2010 9:54 pm

Anyone have any of these in operation? Hands on experience?
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Re: XG-100

Postby JohnWayne » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:56 pm

I just got my hot little hands on some XG-100Ps last week and started playing with them Friday afternoon. As expected, and I may be slightly biased here, it's an awesome radio. I prefer the XG-100P's form factor over the APX, and the VHF/UHF/700/800 coverage in one radio is the bee's knees. Yes, you are limited to 1,250 channels per mission file, but you can have multiple mission files in the radio at one time. Also, each mission file has lots of general radio settings besides channels, so it can be useful for various scenarios.

One thing to keep in mind, especially regarding the reference to "waveforms", is that the Unity was designed by the Harris tactical radio folks - not the public safety group. Therefore, the nomenclature and some of the design elements are rooted in the military tactical world rather than the public safety world. Does that matter to the end user? Not a bit. But, us geeks tend to pick up on those nuances.

A XG-100M mobile will be out soon, and a 110W version will follow. It will share a common "user interface experience" with the portable, so only training on the Unity platform in general will be required for users.

I'm happy to answer any specific questions about it.

Jeff

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Re: XG-100

Postby Bill_G » Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:22 am

ONLY 1250 channels per mission file????

(feeling faint thinking about the committee meetings required to approve such a list, allocating funds, hiring and retaining programmers and database managers to maintain an accurate database, and the belly aching from the users who want it in a different order)

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:55 pm

IMO, they released the Unity too soon. There are a lot of features in the radio for the analog user missing or annoying. Plus the P25 doesn't seems as good as the APX.

- Unmute delay on both P25 and analog is slower than the APX. Clips the first syllable
- Speaker very tinny compared to the APX.
- No Trunking available until next year?
- P25 decoding is not as forgiving as the APX. It digitizes much sooner and more often than the APX
- No MDC PTT ID
- MDC is ONLY Pre-Burst, not post burst
- No P25 ID decode or soft ID at all
- The menu on the front is unrestricted. Yes, its possible for the user to change all the settings in the radio, even if you don't want them to. The software doesn't allow you to restrict what menus are available. It's possible to even adjust the ref osc from the front using a passcode.
- So it does 700/800... CONVENTIONAL (at this point).. whoopie... [edit: yes, it's standard with V/U/7/8, just no trunking]
- APX allows better TX and RX audio adjustments via CPS
- Unity has no menu timeout. If you start going thru a menu... then walk away for 5 min, it doesn't revert to the channel yo are on etc. You must exit out.
- No help or definition as to what the setting in the software is for. It has the value ranges, but doesn't ID what it is.
- Scan hangtime must be greater than 1. Some users (me included) like the radio to immediately go back into scanning after the person is talking. Software doesn't allow it.
- Channel names MUST be uppercase and contain NO spaces. WTF?
- Unity has a high-freq hiss that rides with Analog signals. Sounds like the audio PA internal or something...

The positives
- Bigger channel knob. Easier with gloves for FD, but more prone to bumping and changing channels.
- Mission files are good for anyone traveling a lot. Feds, etc.
- Bluetooth programming. No cable needed. Just sync to the bluetooth on the laptop and fly. VERY cool.

That's off the top of my head so far based on a Unity and an APX side-by-side listening to conventional P25 simulcast and conventional analog.

Over-all... I see this as a great technician tool who maintains multiple systems on multiple bands. From a "public safety" use aspect... it still has a ways to go. I'd still take the Unity over the Thales any day of the week though.

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Re: XG-100

Postby JohnWayne » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:29 pm

Thanks! That is EXCELLENT feedback that I can relay directly to the product manager. Luckily, with the exception of the audio output level (hard to beat the APX), all those things can be fixed in software. Make no mistake about it, Harris is SERIOUS about developing their public safety communications business, and part of that is delivering excellent products. The stagnant development days of Tyco are over.

Jeff

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:42 pm

I'm not holding my breath for a "quick" fix.

I've made mention to Matt a few times about a few of the items in March. No feedback.

Also, "the radios are shipping next week" gets a little old, too. I heard that since Feb...

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Re: XG-100

Postby resqguy911 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:22 pm

The Pager Geek wrote:I'd still take the Unity over the Thales any day of the week though.

Opinions by
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Care to elaborate? Some of us don't have the luxury of evaluating both. The Liberty has been working on numerous P25 systems for months now.
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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:24 pm

Seriously?

Turn on your Liberty radio, I'll re-post when it's done booting and you're able to talk on it....

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Re: XG-100

Postby alex » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:32 am

The Pager Geek wrote:- So it does 700/800... CONVENTIONAL (at this point).. whoopie...


Woah - wait - that's it? If you buy one today no V/U? (not to say it's not coming soon via firmware but REALLY?)
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Re: XG-100

Postby JohnWayne » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:15 am

Woah - wait - that's it? If you buy one today no V/U? (not to say it's not coming soon via firmware but REALLY?)


It does V/U/700/800 today. I think the point TPG was making is that it does not do P25 trunking yet. The full band spec is 136-174MHz, 380-520MHz, and 762-870MHz. I am also checking on the possibility of 902-928MHz purely for hamsexual purposes.

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Re: XG-100

Postby WCHija » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:25 am

Thank you for checking on that.
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Re: XG-100

Postby alex » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:27 am

JohnWayne wrote:
Woah - wait - that's it? If you buy one today no V/U? (not to say it's not coming soon via firmware but REALLY?)


It does V/U/700/800 today. I think the point TPG was making is that it does not do P25 trunking yet. The full band spec is 136-174MHz, 380-520MHz, and 762-870MHz. I am also checking on the possibility of 902-928MHz purely for hamsexual purposes.

Jeff


You might want to push for having that band instead for a lot of the electric/power utility's... The downside is that they are mostly running Smartnet/Smartzone which Motorola will not license anymore. Rumor is they are going to be pushing either Mototrbo trunking or P25 Phase 2 for 900 systems that are currently up and running.

Alex
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Re: XG-100

Postby resqguy911 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:14 pm

The Pager Geek wrote:Seriously?

Turn on your Liberty radio, I'll re-post when it's done booting and you're able to talk on it....

tpg


Yes seriously. I take all my capital projects seriously. So seriously that until I see some serious changes I still prefer multiple radios over multiple bands. Considering none of of these radios are what I would call "prime time ready" other than the APX, I'm willing to give some consideration to future development. Now then, what users regularly wait to turn on their radio every time then need to use it? Ours are usually left on all shift. Hell, with 2010 emissions controls I could turn the radio on and off 3 times before the damn new trucks are ready roll out the door.
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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:00 pm

I have had limited experience with the Liberty. (Played with one for a couple days. I don't own one.) However, the boot time turns me off right from the start. (nice pun)

The Liberty could be the nicest radio in the world, but I DO only turn the radio on as I'm getting out of the truck, once on scene. I also turn it off as a habit getting into the truck. Prevents feedback and saves battery power. Realistically I turn it off so I don't FORGET I left it on and kill the battery on the off days. I have a short term memory like an Alzheimer patient.

I relate it like this: You're offered the "coolest" car in the world. Does EVERYTHING you want it to... but there are no passenger doors to get in. You can only get to to the drivers seat from the trunk. I'd pass.

Same with the Liberty; pass. I WILL SAY THIS: Correct the boot-time, and I'll take a deeper look.

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Re: XG-100

Postby alex » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:39 pm

Well, most of the liberty's i've seen do take a while to boot. At the same time, all the liberties I've seen are all pre-production or beta units and are not "street" units.

So having not seen a unit with a production load on it, I haven't been impressed with boot times either.

I would agree that the APX is the only polished dual band radio thus far. There is still the age old debate of - now I have 4 radios in one... What am I missing by only now being able to hear one channel?

Turns out the answer to that question is you are missing a lot.

That is why at the end of the day I think products like the Liberty/Unity are great cache radios. You can take them anywhere and set them up on any frequency generally used by public safety etc. But they are not really day to day operations radios.

Again, not having one for any more than a hour here or there to play with it makes it hard to really figure out how you would really end up using it and what you can live with to not carry everything else with you.

-Alex
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Re: XG-100

Postby JohnWayne » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:41 pm

You might want to push for having that band instead for a lot of the electric/power utility's... The downside is that they are mostly running Smartnet/Smartzone which Motorola will not license anymore. Rumor is they are going to be pushing either Mototrbo trunking or P25 Phase 2 for 900 systems that are currently up and running.


The official response to that is that OpenSky is the preferred product for utilities.

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Re: XG-100

Postby alex » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:48 pm

Is there any utility actually using open sky?

I really don't know - just curious.

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Re: XG-100

Postby JohnWayne » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:06 pm

alex wrote:Is there any utility actually using open sky?


Yes, quite a few use it.

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:58 pm

alex wrote:Well, most of the liberty's i've seen do take a while to boot. At the same time, all the liberties I've seen are all pre-production or beta units and are not "street" units.

So having not seen a unit with a production load on it, I haven't been impressed with boot times either.

I would agree that the APX is the only polished dual band radio thus far. There is still the age old debate of - now I have 4 radios in one... What am I missing by only now being able to hear one channel?

Turns out the answer to that question is you are missing a lot.

That is why at the end of the day I think products like the Liberty/Unity are great cache radios. You can take them anywhere and set them up on any frequency generally used by public safety etc. But they are not really day to day operations radios.

Again, not having one for any more than a hour here or there to play with it makes it hard to really figure out how you would really end up using it and what you can live with to not carry everything else with you.

-Alex


I consider the multiband radios great for required communications across disciplines that happen to be on different bands. Also, as more things become "regionalized" and more responses of specialized teams grow... there is definitely a need for these radios.

I also think they are great tools for the areas that need to "get their act together and play along" to streamline their operations into one band / system / happy medium.

As you are well aware, we here are spread out over all 3 bands.
Fire/EMS/USCG/USCB on VHF
PD/FBI/Public Safety Comm on UHF
Public Services transitioning from everywhere (Low Band / VHF / UHF) to a 700Mhz trunk

The long term is to live on a giant trunk (read 10yrs before complete), so the multiband (V/U/8) is a good transitioning tool. Hell, after 10yrs, I would expect the Unity to be at the end of it's life cycle anyways.

Also, there will be a basic version of the Unity without the big front display and keyboard. Model 1.5 or 2 in Motorola language. This is on the Harris development plate since not everyone will need the full feature set of the XG100. The normal grunt will get the grunt radio. Command and comm people will get the decked-out version.

AND, it's much easier as a radio tech to design appropriate radios systems specific to band advantages without training the user to use additional radios. IE: Building penetration. As a FF, I could use CH1 (VHF) as my everyday channel, but for certain buildings that VHF can't get out of, or for conditions adverse to VHF, I could have an SOG to change to CH2 that is UHF. The grunt user would have NO TRAINING required to "change to channel 2" instead of "hand out the UHF radios." This happens RIGHT NOW in the city. During high-rise ops, they bring in UHF portables that talk out to a crossband veh repeater in the chiefs buggy back to VHF. A multi-band radio eliminates the need for a second radio. Now I can have one radio, and simply change the channel to achieve the objective. (food for thought)

There is a need... even IF it's one channel at a time.

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Re: XG-100

Postby WCHija » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:37 pm

I agree with TPG that there is definately a need for multiband radios. In my County we only have one agency on a different band, but it made life difficult every time we had to roll into that city for mutual aid, or if we had a major incident right outside their city and they had to come help us. Multi band radios solve that problem, they also allow for vehiclular repeaters and a host of other applications.
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Re: XG-100

Postby MSS-Dave » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:59 am

alex wrote:Is there any utility actually using open sky?

I really don't know - just curious.

-alex


Sure....

Just ask Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD) how their 900 MHz OpenSky project turned out. :o I think a couple more utilities stepped up to the plate, like to see how that goes.

I know, Off Topic from the thread but I've been down the 900 MHz OpenSky Kool-Aid road, got the t-shirt. Now have 800 Motorola radios on the County SZ 4.X system, Astro talkgroups. VERY happy with the performance.

Dave

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:50 am

FW Version 1.1 is available to those with access.
Appears to have added Ptt-ID of P25 signals. Not sure what else, yet.

Also, I notice that the Unity has a volume control with 14 total "clicks." You need to be at 9 or 10 for it to be useful on your belt. There are some transmissions where it needs to be full volume to reliably hear the transmission.

APX is about 1/3 volume control for usefulness on the belt. Full volume Unity is about 1/2 on the APX. (APX Programmed for "Normal Audio"... NOT "Loud Environment")

Unity would be useless next a fire truck pumping whereas you could still use an APX either pumping or moving past a loud environment.

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Re: XG-100

Postby mancow » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:30 pm

Any possibility of making an RF5800HH cover 10 Meters for some hamsexual fun? Surely a hammy firmware file or mod is floating around in the bowels of the great green fun factory somewhere!





JohnWayne wrote:
Woah - wait - that's it? If you buy one today no V/U? (not to say it's not coming soon via firmware but REALLY?)


It does V/U/700/800 today. I think the point TPG was making is that it does not do P25 trunking yet. The full band spec is 136-174MHz, 380-520MHz, and 762-870MHz. I am also checking on the possibility of 902-928MHz purely for hamsexual purposes.

Jeff

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Re: XG-100

Postby JohnWayne » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:42 pm

Any possibility of making an RF5800HH cover 10 Meters for some hamsexual fun? Surely a hammy firmware file or mod is floating around in the bowels of the great green fun factory somewhere!


The bigger question is: do you want to buy one? Personally, I don't need a $20k 10M portable, no matter how hamsexy it is.

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Re: XG-100

Postby MSS-Dave » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:38 am

JohnWayne wrote:
Any possibility of making an RF5800HH cover 10 Meters for some hamsexual fun? Surely a hammy firmware file or mod is floating around in the bowels of the great green fun factory somewhere!


The bigger question is: do you want to buy one? Personally, I don't need a $20k 10M portable, no matter how hamsexy it is.


But, just imagine the drool you could get on you at Dayton.....

Dave

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Re: XG-100

Postby mancow » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:07 am

Quite correct, and they are great for the 51 mhz cold war net.

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Re: XG-100

Postby 123 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:37 am

Most of the negative points you guys are mentioning can be fixed with firmware updates. And since firmware updates are free {Unlike big M} its not "ugh" experience if you need to take advantage of the upgrade features.

And speaking from experience of being a loyal M customer for many years. I must say M dropped the ball with the APX 7000

I owned {past context} 4 APX 7000 {VHF/700/800 & VHF/UHF} and I was overall unhappy with them for many reasons. The negatives outweighed the positives for me.

I have my XG 100 successfully paired via bluetooth with my laptop. Laptop receives audio perfectly. Good feature to have for added RX audio to your command laptop

I will admit, Harris has several kinks to work out, but all in all. Its a nice buy over the APX 7000
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Re: XG-100

Postby resqguy911 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:05 pm

123- firmware updates on APX series radios are all free of charge and will continue to be so thru the product life.
Also, how's the trunking working in the XG100 so far? I haven't been privy to the CAP testing results and would like to compare it on our system.
"TDMA = digital and same great taste, half the bits"

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:27 pm

123 wrote:Most of the negative points you guys are mentioning can be fixed with firmware updates.


... When?

The latest update added P25 PTT-ID... that's it?

Harris... if you're reading this... Your product has huge potential. Stop making knowingly false or absurd promises just to appease people. Your military radios got people to look at you and got your foot in the door of the Public Safety market. But, if you don't deliver and get a bad reputation from the start of your quest... it will take YEARS to overcome that sour first impression.

"You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do." Henry Ford.

Learn by that.

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Re: XG-100

Postby 123 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:09 pm

The Pager Geek wrote:
123 wrote:Most of the negative points you guys are mentioning can be fixed with firmware updates.


... When?

The latest update added P25 PTT-ID... that's it?

Harris... if you're reading this... Your product has huge potential. Stop making knowingly false or absurd promises just to appease people. Your military radios got people to look at you and got your foot in the door of the Public Safety market. But, if you don't deliver and get a bad reputation from the start of your quest... it will take YEARS to overcome that sour first impression.

"You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do." Henry Ford.

Learn by that.

tpg



Get off your high horse, tell me one current production Motorola radio product that does not require a firmware update because of a bug or conflict?

Motorola made free firmware updates & gave the software away for free on the APX for a reason, because it needs it and everyone was bitching why they bought a $7,000 radio with so many damn problems.
Last edited by 123 on Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XG-100

Postby 123 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:23 pm

The Pager Geek wrote:
123 wrote:Most of the negative points you guys are mentioning can be fixed with firmware updates.


"You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do." Henry Ford.

Learn by that.

tpg



Now to just make myself Clear. I love Motorola products, but at the same time I wont turn a blind eye for misinformation or false glorification of a product. Your quote I do not understand because Motorola has done the same thing. I do not see how you can judge Harris on the same principles Motorola has done in the past...
Jealousy is the best form of flattery, and flames keep me warm and fuzzy inside :)

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Re: XG-100

Postby MattSR » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:48 pm

I think Harris deserves a little leeway on this one - its their first foray into the P25 market and its a clean sheet design that indorporates many new cutting edge technologies - for starters it hass completely software defined RF front end that covers a massive frequency range. the APX can't do that - it needs dedicated old school RF decks tuned to specific splits. The APX isn't really a new ground up design - Id be willing to bet that lots of firmware code etc have come straight from the XTS5000 line, so this gave them a head start.

The Harris looks to be a great product - one that i'll be trying to get my hands on at some stage :)

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:02 am

123 wrote:Get off your high horse, tell me one current production Motorola radio product that does not require a firmware update because of a bug or conflict?

Motorola made free firmware updates & gave the software away for free on the APX for a reason, because it needs it and everyone was bitching why they bought a $7,000 radio with so many damn problems.


Ok. Let me clear the air....

I WANT Harris to succeed. I REALLY do. At no time have I said "Corporate Motorola is Better than Harris." I think Motorola admin pulls the same sh!t. Motorola arrogance has really pissed me off and I would rather not deal with them, however, they are still the "go to" radio manufacturer AT THIS TIME.

There are 2 separate issues with Harris:
1 - Broken promises
2 - The radio itself

I'm trying to give opinions and comparisons based on my experience with them. Any "new" company (whether it's MACOM in sheep's clothing or not) MUST put their best foot forward to gain the trust of its consumers. Motorola can get away with bull$hit due to market saturation. "Why did you go Motorola?" Likely the answer is "We always have." or "That's what THEY use." Harris still needs to prove that it can play in the public safety sandbox. Their military communications give them some credibility, but they have yet to produce something that public safety can effectively use.

That being said, all the promises they make are watched like a hawk. If they don't deliver, it's a black-eye that will be harder to heal from than if Motorola did the same thing. It's not fair, I know.

THE RADIO has the potential to be AWESOME. However, they pumped it up to be so great, yet it's virtually featureless. The bluetooth is great, the design of the audio processing is better than M, but in the end.. If it doesn't do what your agency needs, it's all hype. I believe it to be a great P25 Conventional radio. That's it. No trunking, and analog still has LOTS of tweaking to be done to make it similar to how we use it today.

My quote is based on a general statement about Harris. They don't have a public safety reputation yet. It's still being developed, but don't blow smoke up my @ss if you keep breaking promises. Motorola conversely HAS a reputation (good or bad.) There IS a difference.

That should suffice for now...
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Re: XG-100

Postby 123 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:53 am

Everything listed in the sales brochures is what they have or "are" delivering.

Far as the P25 trunking & DES-OFB/AES-256 is concerned. Those are added options you have to pay for, its not standard. And if you try to pay for that upgrade they will tell you its a future release. If someone from the Company mislead you then that is a difference story. But I for one do not mislead my customers in telling them it will do P25 trunking out of the box, because that is not the case. YET.

But this is no different then Motorola stating the APX 7000 will do DES-OFB/AES-256 on their brochures, then when they first released the radio we find out that those modes are not FCC accepted yet and could not be installed at the time.

Delays in rolling out "all" the features in promising what the radio will do is common with any radio manufacturer.
I wouldn't call it a broken promise, just a mere delay.

Far as Motorola being the only "go to" Public Safety comms provider I am half and half on that issue. Because I honestly would not carry a APX on a fire scene, and would revert back to the XTS 5000 for fire operations. I am not confident that the APX 7000 is a radio for Fire Operations and for the first time in 20 years of me carrying Motorola radios I think Motorola has made a radio that I actually dislike. Others on the board swear up and down that Tait makes good radios. I guess quality is in the eyes of the beholder.

Right now if I had to decide between the APX 7000, XG 100, or Liberty for a multi band radio I would pick the XG 100
Others may disagree, everyone has a right to chose and I respect that.

But when I think of Motorola I think of a Company that is the leader in enhancements and technology for communications. I do not believe they are the leader, this time around...

And I will say I personally never seen the "perfect" radio. There are flaws in every design. Even mac has fallen to this with the iphone. But that is a different story :)

And to make myself clear again. I love Motorola, hope they come out with better products in the future. They just did not do it for me this time around. And although not all the bells and whistles are in the Harris XG 100 yet, its a nice start. I believe the finished product will do nicely.
Jealousy is the best form of flattery, and flames keep me warm and fuzzy inside :)

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:38 pm

123 wrote: If someone from the Company mislead you then that is a difference story.


Yes, they have. It'll be ready this date, now this date, now this date, now they're shipping it, but took 3 weeks. Firmware update? Sure! This date, no this date, no this date. THAT's the false promises I speak of, not what's on the brochure. I understand development. I'm cool with that, but when you say dateX, and KEEP GIVING EXCUSES, it gets old. How about that bank charger? "End of the year" has now changed to "March 2011."

I have both radios, I use the APX daily on my job. I wouldn't trust the XG100 yet. The APX skated across a highway when I left it on the side of the truck and we drove away. Went back, picked it up, works like a champ.

As for choosing between the 3 radios, it's an unfair comparison. If you have trunking, you can't possibly choose the XG100 at this time. Like I've said in previous posts, I have limited negative experience with the Liberty. With every radio having limitations, you may not be able to choose a "better radio" simply because it won't do what you want it to.

As for the company that is the leader in enhancements and technology, I would believe you with Harris, but with what proof? Again, AT THIS TIME, I don't believe you can't fairly say that with what is tangible.

I, too, have never seen the perfect radio. Never will.

We'll see how the XG100 progresses.

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Re: XG-100

Postby 123 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:13 pm

I certainly agree with you on the time frames. But to be fair I have ordered direct from Motorola on some items and they have pushed back the dates several times as well. Its all based on the simple supply and demand factors. Maybe not to the extreme of a year, but they still do it is my point.

And if you look back on my post I stated if I had to choose between a "multi band radio". I never said anything about choosing between P25 trunking.

Regardless of all of that I can understand your point of view and frustration. The Dealers have felt some of the same frustrations on the release date issues...
Jealousy is the best form of flattery, and flames keep me warm and fuzzy inside :)

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Re: XG-100

Postby The Pager Geek » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:23 pm

123 wrote:I certainly agree with you on the time frames. But to be fair I have ordered direct from Motorola on some items and they have pushed back the dates several times as well. Its all based on the simple supply and demand factors. Maybe not to the extreme of a year, but they still do it is my point.

And if you look back on my post I stated if I had to choose between a "multi band radio". I never said anything about choosing between P25 trunking.

Regardless of all of that I can understand your point of view and frustration. The Dealers have felt some of the same frustrations on the release date issues...


Yes, but that's my original point. That's the "norm" for Motorola. This shouldn't be the "norm" for a Company trying to establish a new reputation in the Public Safety market. Making a good first impression is imperative, and I'd like to see them succeed. However, burning those bridges this early isn't going to win friends.

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