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Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

This forum is dedicated to discussions pertaining specifically to the Motorola ASTRO line of radios (those that use VSELP/IMBE/AMBE), including using digital modulation, digital programming, FlashPort upgrades, etc. If you have general questions please use the General or Programming forums.

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Nick
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Postby Nick » Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:55 am

I'm not big on plugging eBay *BUT* have a look at this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dl ... 1326219285

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Postby spectragod » Wed Jan 23, 2002 3:35 am

Nick,
I saw that too, I'm currently bidding on it, just wonder if it works???? SG

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Postby Nick » Wed Jan 23, 2002 5:16 am

On 2002-01-23 06:35, spectragod wrote:
Nick,
I saw that too, I'm currently bidding on it, just wonder if it works???? SG


For the "Buy it now" price I hope it works :lol:

Good luck with your bids and be sure to keep us informed what all those mysterious part numbers are and what firmware it turns out to be...

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Postby Twisted_Pear » Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:48 am

I bought a HHCH which I thought was for the XTVA (No model number!) but it doesn't work with it so I'm presuming it is for the AVA. FWIW, it looks exactly like the one he has for sale in that auction.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Twisted_Pear on 2002-01-25 01:24 ]</font>

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Postby Elroy Jetson » Thu Jan 24, 2002 8:57 am

The XTVA HHCH (PLN7737A) and AVA HHCH (unknown part number) and Astro Spectra HHCH (HMN-4044D) all use what is reported to be an identical mic head. The firmware within the various radios and VA's is what varies, and as we now know, only a select few AVA's have compatible firmware.

The PLN7737A's cable is reportedly correct for use with either the XTVA or the AVA.

By the way, if you ever wondered how to open an AVA control head, you do it by inserting your fingernails in the small gaps that are visible at the bottom of the housing where the cable boot usually covers, and prying gently. Take off the cable and look around that neck, and you'll see the catches. A decent set of fingernails pops it right open.

I've done this to several different HHCH's, and the firmware revisions printed on the chp labels were the same, though the mics had different part numbers, one for Spectra, the other for an AVA.

Elroy

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Postby Twisted_Pear » Thu Jan 24, 2002 10:22 pm

Elroy, what firmware versions have you seen?

From what I can tell I see $ABCE.

I'm going to have to check the head with another XTVA.

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Elroy Jetson
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Postby Elroy Jetson » Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:39 am

You'd have to ask a question I can't answer. I don't have an HHCH anywhere near me at this time and didn't note the revision.

Anyway, it's the revision of the firmware inside the AVA that's critical, not the HHCH firmware.

Elroy

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Nick
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Postby Nick » Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:16 am

I emailed Jeff regarding the auction, he reports that the HHCH has a PLN????? part number but wont be more specific and the AVA is the already listed on Bat LabsNTN7227BSP01 version.

Based on this it seems the NTN7227BSP01 works with the PLN (XTS????)HHCH??

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Postby Elroy Jetson » Sat Jan 26, 2002 5:07 pm

No, DON'T bet on it. The part number of the AVA absolutely does NOT reveal whether it has HHCH compatible firmware in it or not.

The only way to be sure is to try it.

Elroy

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Postby radioswapper » Fri Feb 01, 2002 10:10 pm

Looks like someone actually "BOUGHT IT NOW" for $826.00.

Anyone know who this guy is so that we can finally solve the ASTRO Saber HHCH mystery once and for all.

F.Y.I. this buyer also just purchased and ASTRO Saber from Junkyardnut.

-Don

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Postby Elroy Jetson » Sat Feb 02, 2002 3:40 pm

Given the prices he's willing to pay, it sounds like he likes to spend money. Maybe I should contact him and see how deep his pockets are....?

:smile:

Elroy

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Postby roberts » Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:15 am

Ok, I’m the fool that bought the ConvertaCom with the HHCH mic. And, the HHCH mic does NOT work with it, but that’s okay because it’s being used now fot a XTS3000 ConvertaCom. Now I need a display/keypad mic that the Astro Saber III supports (the AVA Owners Manual says it supports it, though I haven’t opened up the ConvertaCom to verify the firmware numbers). AVA PN=NTN7227E. And now I don’t have deep pockets, they are empty now. The cost for the package was a bit high but considering the AVA, HHCH, and speaker were brand new it was a bit cheaper than ordering from Motorola.

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Postby Motofanatic » Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:23 pm

On 2002-02-27 14:15, roberts wrote:
Ok, I’m the fool that bought the ConvertaCom with the HHCH mic. And, the HHCH mic does NOT work with it And now I don’t have deep pockets, they are empty now.


Hi Roberts, it is unfortunate you have only found this bulletin board too late because the one thing you seek has been the "holy grail" of sought after items for over a year.

When this bulletin was on the old server, this same HHCH on AVA topic existed then as it does today.

The reason nobody can give you an answer is because nobody knows the answer or the few that do aren't willing or able to. There has been much heresay that somebody saw it working in some 3-letter agency car but the fact remains nobody has come back here to report any positive findings.

So if you do happen to find the 'trick' that answers this unsolved mystery, I guarantee you that you will be revered as one of the great AVA-gods on this board.

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Postby roberts » Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:22 pm

Hey, thanks for the info. I didn’t know if anyone has gotten a HHCH to work with the AVA yet. Funny thing is that Motorola has an owner’s manual for the HHCH mic with the AVA. As far as I have heard, the AVA must have special firm where to support the HHCH. I have sent an email to Motorola about this but no reply yet. I’ll update on the status if I get one. Kind of sucks having to use the standard mic with it.

Take it easy…

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Postby ERC » Fri Mar 01, 2002 5:14 pm

At one time Motorola produced a Y-cable that plugged into the 25pin speaker port on the back of the AVA; then in turn the HMN-4044D HHCH Mic and speaker plugged into separate plugs on the Y-cable. The AVA and the HHCH Mic that I saw functioning had this set up. It was a couple of years ago.

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Elroy Jetson
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Postby Elroy Jetson » Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:34 pm

Interesting. Time to dig out my AVA manual and see about rigging up something for test, once the manual tells me which leads are data, etc...

Got a part number for that cable?

Elroy

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Postby ERC » Mon Mar 04, 2002 6:09 pm

AVA Y-cable Part #: NTN-8077A.
Description: Y Cable (HHCM/Speaker)

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AVA

Postby CHEFA2001 » Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:23 pm

I know this is slightly off topic on this thread, but since i could not locate any other mentions on the search option, of my question, I am posting it here.

I have a new out of box Saber convertacom and I want to use it for my astro saber....

Mostly to charge the radio, but the mic and speaker use would be great if I can do it.

I see that the radio is too long for a fit into the connector which is onthe rear of the radio, therefore do I need a medium cap. battery, or is there more to it?

I think, If memory serves me correct that there are two wires which are different in the astro and normal sabers ava...

Any help here guys?

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CHEFA2001
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SABER ASTRO SVA

Postby CHEFA2001 » Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:26 pm

Come one guys....Someone has to have info or know what needs to be done to the standard saber convertacom to allow it to be used with an astro saber.

Thanks

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Elroy Jetson
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Postby Elroy Jetson » Wed Jul 31, 2002 6:42 pm

If you want to use a standard Saber convertacom with an Astro Saber, you can pretty much forget about it right now. The front panel assembly is different, the connector block is different, and the firmware is different. To start.

However, an AVA CAN be used with a standard Saber if they're both the right revisions.

Elroy

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Postby mike m » Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:42 am

Motorola had considerable problems about a year ago with the HHCH working and it was a code problem in the XTS3000s remote mode, a section of the sb9600 buses initialization code that talks to some of the remote devices was lost in a programming upgrade back in late 2000 or early 2001 and it was recently fixed( about 9 months ago), however older radios will probably need to be reflashed.

I had a workaround that required the user to power up the AVA and insert the XTS3000 in and then turn the xts3000 on and pop the xts3000 in and out several times with power on it to get it to initialize. This would put the unit in remote mode and after 2 or 3 tries it would finally work, unfortunately My AVA and HHCH were borrowed my Motorolas Plantation engineering lab to work on this issue and never returned so I can't get serial or software numbers until they return it.

This may or may not be your problem but it's worth a try to see if you can get it to work. If your radio isn't an xts3000 then there is probably another conflicting issue with it. What flashcode is in your XTS, that is if it is an XTS3000 you have ?


Mike

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Tue May 29, 2007 3:14 pm

~epic bump/back from the dead post~

An AVA with a HHCH is pretty high up on my "want list", so I've been doing some bench testing with a W3 HHCH (HMN4044E) and a standard AVA (NTN7227B). Here's what I've found.

  • The "Inserting the wrong radio may damage the adapter" warning refers to the pin on the radio connector that manually activates the RF switch on an Astro Saber. The AVA will operate a System Saber 3 with a NMN6150 SVA HHCH just like a regular SVA (personally confirmed), but if there isn't a hollowed-out spot for the RF switch pin to drop into the connector won't seat. I drilled one out on my test-subject SysSaber 3 with a manufacture date of 1994, and it worked just fine.
  • The HMN4044 head IS the correct head to use.
  • In the factory configuration, it interfaces through the mic jack. The pinout is straight-through from the AVA mic jack to the W3 RJ45 jack (i.e. 1-1, 2-2, etc.)
  • It DOES depend on the firmware in the AVA itself. I'm not much up on programming, so I have no idea what type of firmware it requires or how to flash it. Here are some pics of the chip/main board.
    -link 1
    -link 2
    -link 3
  • Bottom line: After figuring the factory config out, it's sitting there flashing FAIL 01/92 at me. Oh well..

The Y-cable people have referenced intrugues me. In the AVA service manual, they state it's used for RS232 data. If someone managed to use one to interface a HMN4044, that would mean the head was talking directly to the radio because the only data lines present on the 25-pin speaker connector come directly from the radio connector. Also, there's no +5V back there, only 12V. I dunno.. I'm not saying it never happened, but still..

Anywho, I dunno if this is kosher or not (if not, go easy on me), but here's a block diagram of the AVA "brain" with pinouts for all of the connectors. Maybe one of you other guys can figure something out.

Image
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby fogster » Tue May 29, 2007 9:12 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:An AVA with a HHCH is pretty high up on my "want list", so I've been doing some bench testing with a W3 HHCH (HMN4044E) and a standard AVA (NTN7227B).


Can I be the fool that stops in to ask what an AVA is? The vehicular adapter for an ASTRO Saber? (And if so, this sounds really novel.)

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:46 pm

Well, I made some progress.. sort of. I got the HHCH to stop flashing FAIL 01/92 by tying the BUS HI and BUS LO lines on the HHCH to LCD DATA and LCD CLOCK on the AVA's mic jack, respectively, but it still won't do anything.

Other interesting tidbits:
-Reversing the above configuration causes the HHCH to not power-cycle at all. Instead, the green LED blinks dimly.
-I wired the mic to the head like this:

HHCH DB25-----AVA RJ45
22----------------1
24----------------NC
23----------------8
4-----------------4
12----------------5
14----------------2
5-----------------3
25----------------NC

No function, right? Well, when you pull low on PTT on the AVA side (RJ45 pin 6) and hit the PTT button on the HHCH, it PASSES TRANSMIT AUDIO. Yeah, it's not much, but it's something.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby batdude » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:46 pm

BRAVO MIKE JULIET ALPHA
"You can do whatever you want, there are just consequences..."
IF SOMEONE PM'S YOU - HAVE THE COURTESY TO REPLY.

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:01 pm

The head (YMN4016B, in case the eBay link disappears) shows to be available and in stock on MOL. $380 list, with a respectable NSO markdown. Now to figure out the pinout for the Y-cable...


edit: Saved the pics, too:

Image

Image
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby Astro Spectra » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:58 pm

Hmmm, the comments in the eBay ad about the button labels sent me scrambling and yes I have an YMN4016B attached to an Astro Spectra. It came with a bunch of HMN4044 equipped W3s units and I kept it because of the buttons. As far as the Astro Spectra is concerned it is completely interchangeable. And yes I know the plug should be different. Now to inspect the S/W version!

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:34 am

I got an answer from the guy selling it today.

The W3 head connects thru the DB25 on the AVA via a Y cable. Sorry I don't know the exact flash/host. The 2 radios included work with the W3 in the AVA. But my later model astro (version8?) does not.


Well, I guess that answers the eternal question. But if you look at the AVA service manual, it really looks like it's supposed to connect through the mic jack on the diagrams where they forgot to delete references to the Astro HHCH.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby escomm » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:28 pm

Teh AVA service manual (6881078C25) says you connect the HMN4044 to the y cable, which connects to the J1 speaker jack. The other end of the y cable goes to the external speaker.

There is no mention of the HMN4044 on the compatible mic accessory list, fwiw

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:25 pm

Ahh, okay. I was going off of this:

Image

I think you may have an older version of the manual.. the one I have is 68P81078C25.

I still find it ironic and somewhat suspicious that several of the lines on the mic jack (+5, ground, and MIC HI, specifically) line up exactly with the RJ45 connector on the HHCH. Maybe that was done in anticipation of an updated version that was never released..
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby escomm » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:45 pm

The manual I looked in came from Motorola about 2 weeks ago, I just omitted the first letter since searching MOL for it will produce no results,

The picture I saw seems to be different, I am pretty sure I noticed different setup for using the HMN4044 than when not using the HMN4044.

I will try to get a scan of the page tomorrow.

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby Batwings21 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:22 am

ASTRO Digital SABER radios must have firmware version R03.00.00 or later. For handheld
control head use, the ASTRO radio must have firmware of AP R03.20.00 or later. The
radio will display the revision version number when put in to test mode. Press radio RAT
button 2 five times when turning on the radio.
AVA Installation instructions 68P81078C20-A

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:11 am

Batwings21 wrote:
ASTRO Digital SABER radios must have firmware version R03.00.00 or later. For handheld
control head use, the ASTRO radio must have firmware of AP R03.20.00 or later. The
radio will display the revision version number when put in to test mode. Press radio RAT
button 2 five times when turning on the radio.
AVA Installation instructions 68P81078C20-A

I have tried radios with that exact HOST firmware revision. FAIL 01/90

There is an option for the handheld control head in Astro Lab under Labtool Configuration 2 --> General Hardware Options. Tried enabling that on a radio with the above-mentioned firmware. FAIL 01/90

But then, this was with the HHCH plugged into the mic jack. They may well work with the "correct" Y-cable.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby escomm » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:28 pm

Otaku, I think the source of those pictures is out of date.

In the current manual, there are two Console Connector Locations diagrams, one for non-HMN4044 mics and one specifically for HMN4044 mics. The step by step instructions also have a specification for when the HMN4044 is used. My scanner is borked here at the office, so I can't scan the page (page 7 of the 68P81078C25-0 manual)

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby Astro Spectra » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:54 am

OK just to close this one off, here are for reference some images of the YMN4016A (which is what my unit turned out to be):

Image

Image

The firmware appears to be $ABCE (the last letter is hard to read). But I noticed that there appeared to be a number of missing or possibly optional SMD component positions on the PCB and I wonder if they have something to do with the compatibility of the mic? I’ve marked the ‘not fitted’ position on my unit with red circles for comparison with the standard HMN4044_:

Image

In other words, perhaps it is not the firmware but the presence or absence of components that determines what this mic works with?

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 am

See here. I should've snapped to that sooner.

I suspect that the above-posted setup (btw, did anyone buy it? looked like dude yanked the auction before closing) would work equally well with that head and a plain-Jane HMN4044.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:21 pm

Pin 14 on the DB25 is Mic Hi, confirmed (it has continuity with pin 5 on the mic jack.) We're on to something here.

I can also confirm that there is NO +5V present on the DB25. Which seems more likely.. that the Y-cable contains a voltage regulator to drop 12V down to 5, or that the HMN4044 head is somehow configurable to run off of 12V?

Image Image
(warning: 2032 x 1524 large pics)

That's the brand-new HMN4044E head I've been using for testing. Notice that it has the same missing components as the YMN4016A head pictured above.

Now for the important question: if I'm probing around with an oscilloscope looking for SB9600 data, what do I need to look for? How would I be able to ascertain the difference between BUS+, BUS-, and BUSY?

My worst fear is that the mythical, fabled Y-cable isn't just a pass-through cable.. it contains some unknown circuitry to convert some unknown data signal into SB9600 data.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby chartofmaryland » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:53 pm

The " Y " Cable does contain a level shifter circuit in the hood of the DB-25 that plugs into the AVA. I tried by got a nice wall when the conversation quit with moto. The production was halted at MRT for whatever reason, but more on the fact like the sellers listing in this thread about how the unit had known failures if you didn't remove then reinsert the radio along with holding your nose to the left and so on. The 4044 will talk directly to the AS 1 2 or 3 by the terminations on the rear acc. connector on the portable case. I have made it work well by using this information from the AS service manuals and the forward engineering the AVA to "pass" the messages if you would, to the portable directly, and bypassing some of the functions of U6 with a few puff caps and drop voltage with a few resos to maintain front operations but not halt what data is sent on certain traces for the operation to work.

CoM
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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:20 pm

Hmm.. I wonder if it's the same level shifting performed by a RIB. They do take serial data and convert it to SB9600 for Spectra programming, after all.

I thought I had SB9600 data isolated to pins 1, 4, and 6 of the DB25, but the voltages weren't lining up with what my test MCS2000 was spitting out (a MCS will drive a W3 HHCH off the mic jack, fyi.. straight-through pinout between RJ45s). I'm about to jump +5V to pin 25, since it apparently goes nowhere, and go from there.

Also, pin 15 of the DB25 is Switch (PTT).
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby peteinsf » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:03 pm

Hi Guys,

I have been reading this thread for years and I didn't see anything other then vaprorware useful until that Ebay sale....

Here is my question, I saw a picture of a belt mounted XTS3000 with the an HHCH on the guys shoulder. If the mic connector on the back cover of an Aster Saber has the same pins available (as an XTS) would it not be easier to get the HHCH to work directly with the radio and then move on to fixing the data path/voltage issues with the AVA. Has anyone seen the mic cable that would go from an HHCH to an XTS?

If we could find one of those it would be a simple matter (with an oscilloscope) to figure out what sort of Y cable would be needed to route the data through the AVA...

Just a thought (from one who owns an AS on every band)

Pete

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby peteinsf » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:21 pm

Also,

I found this bid from the US Marshals service...

* * *

The US Marshals Service - Headquarters Contracts requires the following items, Brand Name or Equal, to the following:
LI 001, External Speaker HSN6001B, 82, EA
LI 002, HHCH Cable HKN6096B, 96, EA
LI 003, Handheld Control Head YMN4016B, 95, EA
LI 004, Cable and Fuse HKN4051A, 29, EA
LI 005, Cable Speaker 3080091M01, 100, EA

* * *
Is the HKN6096B the CABLE???

Pete

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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:11 am

Is the HKN6096B the CABLE???

No. HKN6096 is the remote cable for a W3 Astro Spectra.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

Solo
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What radios do you own?: Astro Saber, Astro Spectra

Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby Solo » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:20 pm

Time to wake up a zombie thread!

chartofmaryland wrote: The 4044 will talk directly to the AS 1 2 or 3 by the terminations on the rear acc. connector on the portable case. I have made it work well by using this information from the AS service manuals and the forward engineering the AVA to "pass" the messages if you would, to the portable directly, and bypassing some of the functions of U6 with a few puff caps and drop voltage with a few resos to maintain front operations but not halt what data is sent on certain traces for the operation to work.


What would the connection pinout be to hook the HHCH to the back of the AS case?

Any more info on "bypassing U6" ?

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d119
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Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby d119 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:40 am

Solo wrote:Time to wake up a zombie thread!


FYI, that's very poor forum etiquette. In the future, just start a new topic on the subject, please.

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motorola_otaku
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What radios do you own?: 2 turntables and a microphone

Re: Attention Elroy - AVA HHCH

Postby motorola_otaku » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:45 pm

A thread on the "other" forum answers all the questions posed in this thread and more concering the Astro AVA and HHCH interfacing: http://communications.support/threads/1 ... dification

At this stage y'all might as well take down my pinned thread since it's no longer correct, strictly speaking.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind


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