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KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

This forum is dedicated to discussions pertaining specifically to the Motorola ASTRO line of radios (those that use VSELP/IMBE/AMBE), including using digital modulation, digital programming, FlashPort upgrades, etc. If you have general questions please use the General or Programming forums.

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4n6inv
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KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:05 pm

I just bought a new in the box KVL3000 Plus. Go ahead and feel free to snicker and post rude comments. My Vodoo Priestess is on vacation, so there will be no retaliation. It only has the DES algo in it and I need to upgrade it to DES-XL and OFB. I bought it from a government auction, so I had no idea what algos it had in it, and knew this was possible - if not probable.

Does anyone know how to go about getting it flashed for the needed algos? Does it have to go back to Motorola or can I do a flash here? Any special cables needed to accomplish this? Anyone ever had to do this that can offer ANY insight? (SHUDDER) Any idea what the costs are?

Thanks!

Jim

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby jmr061 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:34 pm

Seems to me the algo upgrade are done via a PCMCIA card that goes in the top of the unit. I recall reading something like that in the past. No idea what the cost is but I am sure its not cheap.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby batdude » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:45 pm

if the unit has DES, it was my understanding that it would load OFB and XL as well.

key length between the three is the same....


however, you probably do not have ASTRO 25 "mode" to load CKR based keys... just old-skool PID (physical ID) keys ... i.e. Securenet.

i would send the unit to the depot for the firmware uplift... i think it's $75. getting a dealer to one-off your upgrade thru moto sales will probably be difficult, depending on the MSS.

the upgrade *is* PC-card based.


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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:54 pm

Yeah; when it boots up, it just says "ASN". I haven't seen anything in it about Astro 25 Mode. (Sigh) I just called my rep and sent him an email with the serial number, firmware, etc. When I called Motorola; I was told that it wasn't something that they could quote an NSO on - I'd have to go though my CSR. S; still I wait. He's rather slow...

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:57 pm

OK, so I heard back from my CSR and he says that he's going to have to talk to engineering about exactly what I will need before he gives me a quote.

Long story short; I brought he KVL3000 Plus from the S/O tonight and read through the manual. Bascially; from what I understand from screwing around with theirs and mine; is that in ASN they both only show DES. The S/O's also has an Astro 25 mode that mine doesn't. For a Astro 25 upgrade; I'm only looking at about $500.00 for an upgrade that would make my DES a DES, DES-XL, and DES-OFB in P-25 mode. To order the DES, DES-XL, DES-OFB option right off the shelf would set me back over $1300.00. Am I missing something? Keep me posted, guys!

Jim

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby batdude » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:54 pm

you do NOT have to order 3des - your unit is already loaded with the ability to generate ofb/xl and plain des (i.e. 3des) keys

you do NOT need ASTRO25 mode unless you are going to use CKR key management.

it all depends on what you are doing with the loader... if you need CKR... get the upgrade.... if you don't need CKR, your loader is fine as is.

if you have the PDF's of the service manuals, there is a process detailed in the back of the book with the STIC order numbers for getting the upgrade(s).

note to other readers of this thread: UPGRADES FOR THE ORIGINAL KVL 3000 ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE...

Only the KVL3000 Plus is able to have an upgrade/firmware bump ordered.... and no, they aren't compatible.


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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:42 pm

Thanks again, Doug. For some reason; I can't get my KVL to load keys into any of our radios. It's probably either a PID or LID issue in the radio programming. If CKR is the key server, then no; we don't use that. I just need to load John Doe DES-OFB equipped radios that are on a single channel VHF Astro system. We have two keys that we use, and the only multikey radios are The Sheriff's, Chief Deputys, and my radios - XTS5000 and Astro Spectra mobiles with W-3 HHCH's. All of the officers radios are single key OFB. I haven't had much time to figure it out, but if you have a "Reader's Digest" synopsis that you can offer; I'd greatly apreciate it.

BTW; of course my CSR wants to sell me every option under the sun, without regard to cost. PITA!

Thanks again,

Jim

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby batdude » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:47 pm

in your 5k software... under secure configuration...

under multikey options... check the box that says "PID Key Management"

this basically reverts the radio back to old-skool T3011DX compatible mode and allows an ASN loader (i.e. non-astro 25 equpped KVL3k) to load the radio.


should work fine.

just FYI - my 3k+ only shows "DES" in the menu for available algos - and i know FOR SURE 100% - that it loades ofb and XL keys just fine... just have to map out the multikey stuff correctly in both the loader and subscriber.


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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:18 pm

Doug,

Voila! Thank you, sir!

Jim

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:48 pm

I Hate to keep beating a dead horse, but does anyone have a upgrade pricing matrix for the KVL3000 Plus? I'm getting all kinds of wild quotes and guestimates about how much it will cost to do this and that. I'm also curious about one other thing... When I Googled it the first day; I found a matrix that seemed fairly close to what I have been quoted from Motorola to add algorythms to the KLV. This page no longer comes up when you Google KVL3000 Plus Upgrades. It was the second one listed and had TONS of information that appeared to be both practical and accurate; such as; my understanding was that when you ordered an algo upgrade; it automatically came with the latest firmware for the price. Just a firmware bump was much less, and was listed as an option before the upgrade prices. Motorola tells me that I have to pay $$$$$ to upgrade my firmware before, and SEPARATELY from the algo upgrade. Basically - DOUBLE the cost! Just damn!

Has anyone done any of this that is willing to share their experience? Any VALID info will be greatly appreciated!!!! Any INVALID info will be promptly referred to my on-call Voodoo Priestess.

Thanks,

Jim

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby akardam » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:43 pm

Your regional rep sounds like he's never been introduced to the price pages. When you order any sort of upgrade for a KVL3k+, the first thing you do is order the upgrade "kit" (this includes the PCMCIA card that'll load into the KVL3k+):

KVL3000PLUS FLASHPORT UPGRADE - T6757 - Price $300

Next you'd specifiy which options you'd want. So, in your case, if you wanted to add Astro25 mode capability:

ADD: ASTRO 25 MODE - CA00186AA - Price $600

Now, unlike the algorithm options, this option does not explicity state that it includes a firmware refresh (though you'd think so). I'd call Motorola and confirm. If it does not, then you'd probably want to add:

ENH: SW UPGRADE TO CURRENT ASTRO 25 - CA00183AA - Price $50

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:12 am

Thanks Akardam! That makes it a lot more understandable. My regional is a bit out of touch with the technology; but I spelled out exactly what I wanted, and apparently he forwarded it to Motorola and he got the quotes from that. Actually; he's giving me a small break on the prices you listed. He's a bit old; but seems like an OK guy. Not very fast, though...

Next question: If I decide that I want to add an additional (AES256) later down the line; can I just send them the PCMCIA card back, or do I have to barf up another $300.00 for a flash kit? If I have to pay each time; I'm just going to wait until I see my pimp and buy both the Astro 25 and the AES at the same time!

Thanks!!!

Jim

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby akardam » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:20 am

Knowing Mother M, you'd have to order yet another kit.

If you think you're going to want AES, I'd hold off until you're ready to buy the Astro25 mode and AES, get the firmware for free. You'll want this:

ADD: AES ENCRYPTION - CA00843AA - Price $750.00
This option includes a basic software refresh.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:25 pm

Yep! I called Motorola after I read your post. The flashes do come with the lastest firmware bump; but they do not re-use the PCMCIA card. You have to pay the $300.00 each time you do a flash. So; long story short; I'll wait...

Thanks again!

Jim

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby randymince » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:18 pm

What is the process once you have the PCMCIA card for the flash upgrade? What connection is made, and what software if any is used to perform the actual upgrade? I have never done an upgrade for a KVL, but am about to, so I wanted a heads up. It sucks that you can no longer upgrade 3000's in terms of algo or tac OTAR ability. They have to make their money somewhere.

On another note

*Has anybody used the tactical OTAR feature yet, I know it's pretty new with Motorola. * Any info or a point in the right direction for info would be useful.
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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:05 am

I have the guide to performing the flash upgrade on the KVL3000 Plus. You should get one with your card. But, essentially; you plug the PCMCIA card into the top of the KVL and follow the instructions. No external software is needed. It's a pretty cut and dry process.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby randymince » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:47 pm

Awesome. Have you dealt with the Tactical OTAR at all? Any info would be awesome as far as best ways to execute it. We are looking at ways to cut down on touching every users radio during a rekey. We are on a conventional repeated system, so the Tactical OTAR is a quick alternative to a full blown OTAR system, I know that the tac OTAR has limitations and isn't as seamless, but any info offered up would be much appreciated.
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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby 4n6inv » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:06 am

No experience with tactical OTAR. All the folks around here are small agencies, so they can't justify the cost. If ONLY I could even get them to re-key just ONCE a year; I'd be lucky!

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby randymince » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:38 pm

I hear you on that, before I was working with General Dynamics supporting the military, I was working as a Motorola tech in Texas. I had never dealt with rekeying, because they didn't rekey at all. We dealt with Public Safety, private businesses, contract service mostly, so like you said for most the cost justification wasn't there for any type of OTAR. Thanks for all the input.
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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby motoman30 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:49 pm

I have recently implemented the Tactical Over-the-Air-Rekeying (Flashport H04) option on our net. It's somewhat difficult to configure if you're not familiar with OTAR, but the documentation is fairly thorough.

First, here's what you need:

- KVL 3000 Plus Firmware must be VERY recent. We had to flash our KVLs up to R3.52.45 (latest as of two weeks ago)
- Male/Male DB-9 gender-bender adapter for KVL 3000 Plus
- NKN6504A data cable for ASTRO25 portables (KVL 3000 Plus --> portable)
- HKN6183A data cable for ASTRO25 mobiles (KVL 3000 Plus --> mobile)
- Firmware R12.xx.xx or newer in ASTRO25 subscriber equipment
- Flashport option H04 (Conventional Tactical Rekey)
- Flashport option Q498 Hardware Multikey Encryption w/ OTAR

Radio must also be capable of CAI operation.

And finally, here's a link to the Conventional Tactical Over-the-Air-Rekeying configuration manual, as provided by Motorola:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=3aee ... f6e8ebb871

Conventional TOTAR works with DES-OFB and AES-256. I don't have other algorithms (DVP-XL, ADP or DVI-XL, Type I, etc.) to test with, so their compatibility/functionality with this configuration is unknown.

The KVL 3000 Plus firmware update is critical, as the OTAR menu (ASTRO25 operation only, not in ASN mode) isn't present unless the firmware is updated.

The data cables I mentioned above are not the same as the KVL cables. You need to purchase the data cables if you don't already have them. KVL cables will not suffice.

Hope this information comes in useless. I found this thread while Googling for information about CTOTAR.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby radioinstl » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:52 pm

NKN6504A data cable for ASTRO25 portables (KVL 3000 Plus --> portable)
- HKN6183A data cable for ASTRO25 mobiles (KVL 3000 Plus --> mobile)

Anyone have a pinout on these cables? are they straight cables or have stuff in them like the USB cables?

Thanks

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby akardam » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:06 pm

radioinstl wrote:- NKN6504A data cable for ASTRO25 portables (KVL 3000 Plus --> portable)
- HKN6183A data cable for ASTRO25 mobiles (KVL 3000 Plus --> mobile)

Anyone have a pinout on these cables? are they straight cables or have stuff in them like the USB cables?

Well, HKN6183 is the Serial/RS232 to GCAI programming/service/flash cable for the XTL series, and it does have in-line electronics. I've never heard of the NKN6504 cable, but it lists for just under $200, which makes me think it's more or less like a standard RKN4106 Serial/RS232 programming/service/flash cable for the XTS5000, 2500, etc.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby motoman30 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:18 pm

I should clarify my previous post.

The data cable is only required for ONE radio. This would be the radio you're using as an RF Modem to send the rekey packets to the other radios.

Example: On our net, we're using an XTS 5000 to rekey the other radios. The XTS 5000 is connected to the KVL via the NKN6504A cable. If I had decided to use an XTL 2500 or XTL 5000 as my RF Modem radio, I would've purchased the mobile data cable instead.

Subscriber radios do not need any special cables...just the two flashport options indicated above. (And configuration in CPS.)

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby radioinstl » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:37 am

motoman30 -
can you post a pic of your cables?
also can you do a simple check and see what the pinout is and post it please

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby motoman30 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:38 am

I played around with the NKN6504A "Cosmo Data Cable" some more this morning. Here's what I found:

- When hooked up directly to serial port and connected to an XTS3000, it will not read/write to the radio in RSS.

- When hooked up to an XTS 2500, I was able to read and write to the radio via ASTRO25 CPS.

So it does appear to have some electronics installed in the DB-9 hood, which is sealed up real good. I'm not going to hack it open. Sorry :)

It's safe to say this cable is probably just a serial programming/flash/data cable for the ASTRO25 series portables.

The piece of paper that came in the sealed bag from Motorola said the cable was made in 1999 and to be used with the XTS 3000.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby MattSR » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:44 am

Thanks for the pdf! interesting information you have posted, thankyou.

One thing, there is a reference to TKEK, TSEK and TTEK, now I understand TTEK and TKEK, but wtf is a SEK?

Dont you just love all these TLAs? (three letter acronyms)

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby radioinstl » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:07 am

motoman30 wrote:I should clarify my previous post.

The data cable is only required for ONE radio. This would be the radio you're using as an RF Modem to send the rekey packets to the other radios.

Example: On our net, we're using an XTS 5000 to rekey the other radios. The XTS 5000 is connected to the KVL via the NKN6504A cable. If I had decided to use an XTL 2500 or XTL 5000 as my RF Modem radio, I would've purchased the mobile data cable instead.

Subscriber radios do not need any special cables...just the two flashport options indicated above. (And configuration in CPS.)


Not 100% right, every radio that is going to be tactical rekeyed, has to touch the KVL to be entered in the list of units in the group. When you send the new keys, yes you only need to connect to 1 radio (the one being used as a RF modem). but prior to that, you must connect every radio so there for may need multi types of cables.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby parker4782 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:55 am

Sorry to bring up an old post but does someone have the "Conventional Tactical Over-the-Air-Rekeying configuration manual"

The link listed is dead and the users that posted account does not exist

Any help would be great.

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby Astro Spectra » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:01 pm

Matt,

Variously shadow, session, or signaling depending on context. Here (tactical OTAR) is is the signaling encryption key.

The SEK is used to encrypt the KEK encrypted TEKs.

I know this sounds kinda like Inception...

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby MattSR » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:15 pm

OK so its used to encrypt the PDU packet that contains the KEK. The KEK is then used to encrypt the TEK via a PDU also.

Makes sense (thank god)

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby MattSR » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:17 pm

hang on - does the SEK encrypt the KEK or the TEK?

:lol:

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby MattSR » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:23 pm

Okay - I think I've figured it out (thanks to the online patent sites)

TEK is use for Voice traffic

KEK is used for P25 OTAR done via a PDU (Packet data unit) The KEK encrypts the PDUs contents as per standard P25 encrypted P25.

SEK is used for Tactical OTAR in which is a session encryption key used to encrypt the IP session, since Tactical OTAR uses IP over P25 instead of normal P25 OTAR.

Cheers,
Matt

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Re: KVL3000 Plus Algo Flash Upgrade ?

Postby parker4782 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:26 pm

Still need the PDF of the "Conventional Tactical Over-the-Air-Rekeying configuration manual"

Thanks


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