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POP25

This forum is dedicated to discussions pertaining specifically to the Motorola ASTRO line of radios (those that use VSELP/IMBE/AMBE), including using digital modulation, digital programming, FlashPort upgrades, etc. If you have general questions please use the General or Programming forums.

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MTS2000des
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POP25

Postby MTS2000des » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:30 pm

For POP25 to work, does every Astro 25 portable with HOST ver 9 and higher automatically have this enabled or does it require a specific feature in the flashcode?

I notice on my XTS2500 (HOST/DSP ver 12) the fields for POP25 are greyed out and not enabled in CPS. If it's not enabled in the codeplug, can and Astro 25 system still accomplish POP25 or do I need a flash upgrade?
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Jim202
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Re: POP25

Postby Jim202 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:23 pm

MTS2000des wrote:For POP25 to work, does every Astro 25 portable with HOST ver 9 and higher automatically have this enabled or does it require a specific feature in the flashcode?

I notice on my XTS2500 (HOST/DSP ver 12) the fields for POP25 are greyed out and not enabled in CPS. If it's not enabled in the codeplug, can and Astro 25 system still accomplish POP25 or do I need a flash upgrade?



Did I miss something here? What is POP25?

Jim

akardam
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Re: POP25

Postby akardam » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:38 pm

POP25, aka Programming Over P25, aka Over The Air Programming (OTAP).

OTAP requires an appropriately provisioned ASK (an ASK programmed with the builtin "unlimited" access level will include this option) to allows CPS access to the OTAP fields.

Jason
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Re: POP25

Postby Jason » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:43 pm

You also need G996 over the air provisioning enabled in your flashcode, as well as IV&D (astro packet data)

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MTS2000des
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Re: POP25

Postby MTS2000des » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:33 pm

so if my home system doesn't use ASK, and my radio doesn't have G996 (which it doesn't appear to, Flashcode is 500018-000488-0) than any attempt to OTAP will fail? I ask this because one of the systems in our area uses OTAP, and it was mentioned in the paperwork for authorization as a requirement. When I called their help desk (which is an IT department) and asked if this meant my radio will be ASK'ed they had no idea what I was talking about and would get back to me. I persisted and finally got an email from someone who handles radio programming for the agency, and he said that yes, we do update radios over the air, but we don't use an advanced system key to do it (confused).

My concern is that once ASK is used, I will not be able to get anything done to the radio without going back to this agency, which is a problem, as we are authorized on several systems which are all independently administrated. (welcome to metro Atlanta) The email I got from another one of their support desk people said that an ASK is NOT used- if that is the case than how can they push OTAP updates? All the existing trunking systems in the radio have the OTAP field unchecked and greyed out (all but one are Astro 25 and one Astro mixed mode, and one Smartnet II). Just trying to figure out what I am getting into: I do NOT want an ASK used as this essentially cripples my radio. If that is the case I will just check out a portable when I work over there, and deal with carrying two radios for the time being. If OTAP can occur on my radio WITHOUT ASK, can they modify my codeplug without permission? I do have a password protect on it. Would I have to disable this feature?
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akardam
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Re: POP25

Postby akardam » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:46 am

An ASK is required only to initially program the radio with the OTAP settings. There is no ASK involved in the actual OTAP process. It sounds like you have a number of people there that aren't exactly clear on the concept, which is sadly not unusual when dealing with this kind of thing (especially from an IT department...).

Keep in mind that as long as an ASK that does NOT have the write protect feature enabled is used on a radio, it's essentially just like using a software system key - if you don't have the key for that system, you can't make modifications to it (of course) but you can to any other system in the radio that you have a key for, and the same for the conventional stuff - you just can't clone without keys for all TRS's being present.

The ASK write protect feature was one of those things that wasn't really though out when it was designed, and you're right, it absolutely blows chunks in multi-juristiction programming instances. The newly available radio authentication feature is a much better solution to the problem. Up until now there's been the fundamental assumption that if the radio has the correct information in it to access the system, it must be authorized, which we knows is not true at all. Radio authentication puts the burden on the radio itself to prove that it's legit.

A couple other things to keep in mind about OTAP. The first is that it is NOT intended as a mass reprogramming tool - every programming session chews up one of the channels on the TRS for upwards of 7-10 minutes per radio. Secondly, there's no incrementalism here - it's just like blowing a new codeplug into the radio, so it's a two edged sword. Say you have many systems in your radio, and you have one system enabled for OTAP. If that system administrator pushes a codeplug to your radio that doesn't have all those other systems, poof, off they go. They would need to have all the system keys for all the systems in your radio, just as if they had the radio in front of them.

OTAP is a good thing for single-system scenarios out in the boonies where the radio is a two hour drive from the nearest tech (Alaska comes to mind), but not in dense urban areas that have multiple systems in a 20 mile radius.

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MTS2000des
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Re: POP25

Postby MTS2000des » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:21 am

AKARDAM, great information. One more question, if POP25 isn't enabled on the trunked system, will a subscriber radio even respond to a POP25 request to read or write or just ignore it?
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akardam
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Re: POP25

Postby akardam » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:15 am

I think what you are asking is if OTAP is not configured in the radio's codeplug for a trunk system, will it respond to an OTAP request, and the answer to that is an unmodified negative. It's more complicated than just checking the checkbox, the radio also needs to be configured as a data subscriber.

As much of an uphill battle as this is liable to be, I would recommend further discussion with the various programming entities regarding your concerns.

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MTS2000des
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Re: POP25

Postby MTS2000des » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:27 am

you have been more than helpful. I just got a call from the MSS that handles the actual service for the agency, and here is what they told me:

-They do NOT use an ASK on the system in question. Wasn't sure where the IT was talking about, he thought they were referencing the Blackberries used by the agency (no joke there)
-The system is capable of OTAP, but they aren't using it to their knowledge
-Everything you said is correct

So I am going out there to tomorrow to have my radio programmed up without fear of being locked up. Your explanation of ASK is a good one, I guess so long as no one puts a radio wide lock it isn't a big deal, as it would do what is intended to do (keep unauthorized persons from making changes to radios, adding talkgroups, changing ID's, etc)

Thanks again.
The views here are my own and do not represent those of anyone else or the company, the boss, his wife, his dog or distant relatives.


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