Too much wattage into a tower?

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:05 pm

Alright, here's the question, my town is forcing a new multi-million dollar radio system down our throats (some of it buy our own doing) Anyway, the people running the show don't have me holding my breath. However they've pulled all the 40w radios out of our vehicles and installed poorly (IMHO) programmed 25W CDMs. For those of us fortunate to have been accessory users with our own gear (ala me) we get to keep our 40W radios. But there's been talk that I'm going to have to surrender it to the people running to the project to have it tuned down so as not to damage the tower equipment. (probably put a dealer password on MY equipment while there at it too).

The system is Motorola, and consists of three towers with a voting system to work with our portables. It's on UHF on the 450 range. That's all I know about it because it's none of my business (I'm also the most radio knowledgable of all our emergency services but that's a political problem).

So here's the questions

How can I "harm" the new tower system if I continue to transmit with my 40W radio (there's a LEO from New Jersey blasting us with a 100W mobile transmission now).

If my 40W radio is a problem, why would the guy transmitting at 100W from a nearby location not be a problem.

The license authorizes up to 50W MO, if I'm authorized to use that channel doesn't it mean I can use up to 50W as the license states, or do I have to tune my equipment down to 25W because the moto dealer said so and he'll sick the FCC on us all if we don't? (nice customer service ethic, now you know why I want to become a dealer)

Would any of you distribute the 25W radios before installing the new tower system they were designed for (knowing the old towers are flakey and fail intermitently... our backup is simplex operation).

Sorry for continually buggin people about this question, but every time I try to reason with the masses it makes my head swirl.

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:09 pm

It won't "damage it" but 40 watts might cause you to come in very strong at two of the three receivers. At 25 watts it's probably easier to select which it is coming in better at. I'd ask them to clarify what it's "damaging". Was that what the comm dept said37
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mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:54 am

I am the comms dept for most of the vollies, this is what the motorola dealer said (oh yes, the dealar is the unbiased entity the town selected to look out for our tax dollars). Just to put it in perspective, we were supposed to have this system in march, the mere fact that one of the old towers is still working is amazing to me. One of them shutsdown throughout most of the day due to the heat or something.

They stopped maintaining the old towers when the new one got ordered and the first check was cut.

That, and IMHO, most of the people doing the talking don't have a clue. I have half a clue, but even can read in between the lines of bull$h!t. They threatened one of the departments that they were going to call the FCC on them for operating over 25Watts if they didn't install one of their new radios.

I had to make sure, but the license does read 50Watts, the guy was flat out lying to secure additional work.

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:57 am

Or he got a great deal on some 25 watt radios

srefurd · Post by **srefurd** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:13 am

I am no expert, but would 15 watts make THAT much of a difference in a system?

As far as the FCC goes do you have a letter authorizing you to transmit on freqs, from the county (or whoever is the license holder)?

If so unless they have a provision in the letter for revokation/ notify you that your being revoked then you are legal for what ever the FCC issued the license for.

BUT to be honest your probably going to have to either:

A) semi put up with their ********

B) give it all up and tell them to F##K off.

Not much help am I? Oh and just exactly do they know what your radio puts out anyway?

Post by **batdude** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:24 am

try explaining this concept to the local hillbilly sheriff.

he wonders why all his remote receivers don't vote properly
when all his cruisers are running 110w spectras.

it's not a question of "overload" or "too much power" - it's the factor of getting a multi-site voted receive system to function properly.

fact is, you don't need that much power, period - AS LONG AS THE SYSTEM IS SET UP CORRECTLY.

doug

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:41 pm

well its 2 issues I see here.

Systems need to be balanced - you see this often with trunking where you have a lot of close rx sites. You don't want to vote every site all at once - that can cause problems.

There is an edacs system out here that only runs 12w mobiles because of the number of sites they have up. The EDACS system I'm on runs 35w mobiles again this compliments our system

So yes you can cause problems if the system isn't balanced.

BUT

I think this dealer's excuse is pretty crappy. You won't damage anything RF wise unless you plan on dropping a 500 megaton a-bomb on the towers.

If the FCC license that covers your radios says you can run 50w then you can legally run 50w.

The dealer can't call the FCC on you or some other BS if you're not exceeding what your license says you can do.

Frankly, I think the guy is just using this as an excuse to sell new radios. If he was that good at system design this dealer would be explaining it the same why I am - how the system is suppose to work best, not threats against the users.

Just why does the radio world have so many of these types in it?

Go file a complaint with your state's attorney general's office. This guyhs business practices just suck.

wa2zdy · Post by **wa2zdy** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:24 pm

Bottom line though as I see it is if your name isn't the one listed on the station license where it says "licensee," you can pretty well figure on doing whatever the licensee wishes. If the licensee has delegated authority to the dealer, you're stuck with that.

That said, the issue with the voters is a good part of the power limits. dropping from 40w to 25 is less than a 3dB decrease, so it isn't really an issue for signal strength, but again, the voters do need to be treated nicely to do the job properly.

Good luck.

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:36 am

BUT, watch out, the radio dealer has been known to change the license and get the enity to sign the application reducing TX power. Maybe so the dealer can sell more voting receovers and "towers", we have seen it happen, even had the customer forced into "narrow band" radios, when ALL the existing radios were just fine and the license was still way from exp.
D@*&#$ "dealers are screwing public safety agencies to get some of the Homeland Security monies.

And yes, this form of "dealer" activity realy pisses me and my staff off. WE have seen it too many times.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:58 am

I'm glad I can actually trust our radio shop here to not pull crap like that. I would go briserk if anyone tried to pull that garbage here.

bernie · Post by **bernie** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:40 pm

My two bits worth:
It certainly sounds as if some one in authority has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. This is normal.

If they know their business they should be able to explain EXACTLY
why they demand certain power levels.

On the other hand there is very little difference in actual performance between 25 watts, and 50 watts.

As a matter of fact someone next to the site could saturate the receiver with 100MW HT, but some one in a "dead" area couldn't be heard with a 110W unit. The important thing is what signal is presented to the site receiver.

The entire concept of voting is to select the site with the best signal.

I can think of one reason why they might specify low power mobiles: Transmitter steering.
This is a system where the site with the best signal is the only site to be keyed. Much cheaper than simulcast.
I built an IMTS system once that had this feature.
It worked on the theory that the signal paths work both ways the same..
They don't! Went for "Sloppy Cast"

The mobile antenna installation will likely make more difference than transmitter power.

I do not think that the FCC is even remotely interested in what power level you are running unless you are causing "harmful" interference.

However, as some one stated, you MUST obey the licensee if you are to use their system.

Quarterwave · Post by **Quarterwave** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:44 pm

Ok, I smell a salesman. When I worked for M this is the kind of messes the salemen made. Then I got the call to fix it. I was the "correction specifier, dispute resolution manager and official political hand holder, as well as the politician-to-user-to-technician-to-sales language conversion specialist". Ok, enough of me being funny, but it's true.

The only good reason I see for the big tiff over power is system balance. I've been involved with "steering" as well as "simulcast/multicast". Both are done for portable talk-in issues, and the second for talk out coverage as well. In any case, we used 40 watt mobiles and never had an issue. You of course have different terrain and maybe a smaller area, or a larger one, I don't know. If it is optimized for portables, then I would say that is why they want you to use lesser power mobiles. I bet you would find if you went to a 1/4 wave antenna and a ten watt mobile, you would be fine.

I know, I hate the political struggles too, they never listen to guys like you who have been there and do know something. Everyone gets their toes stepped on, the dealer probably feels like he was put in control and he doesnt want you telling him anything.

You have my sympathies. good luck!

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:58 pm

For repeater operations I agree less is fine, however, some of our channels operate simplex only and we're trying to get as much out of the simplex range as we can. Therein lies the problem, we have also had the problem of "hey where did the towers go?".... we've been promised that won't happen again with the "new" system... but you know the saying "you fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".

Jim202 · Post by **Jim202** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:29 am

Lets put one thing into a clear prospective, when using a voter system, all they care about is signal to noise ratio. Doesn't matter who's equipment it is. If you really look around the country, you will find many systems that use 100 watt high power mobile radios.

I have to agree with the one person that said "This smells like a sales persons ploy to sell equipment".

I have been in the radio service field for better than 35 years and have never heard anyone being able to produce proof that a 45 watt radio will cause a problem to a repeater system and a 25 watt radio won't. Putting it into rounded numbers, your talkiing slightly less than 3 Db of power.

I would tell them to take a flying leap. The public safety system deserves the best system you can provide. Your not going to get that type of a system with reduction in power of the mobile and portable units. i know you haven't mentioned portables yet, but look for that coming next. Bottom line is sales to Motorola and income for the radio shop.

As for password protecting the radios, if the system admin says do it, not much you have to say. The only thing it does is provide contining service for the radio shop. It's more of a greed move than anything else by the radio shop.

I have seen some public safety users that found out the radio shop had pass word protected the radios with out their approval. Those radio shops no longer service the radios. If you have any input, that is what I would pass along.

Jim

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:19 am

There are additional items that weren't mentioned also which is the mobile antenna type/gain going to be changed along with the radios? If the origional 50 watt radio was being fed into a gain antenna and the new 25 watt mobiles are going to be installed with unity gain antennas, then the over all talk-back calulations would be worse than 3dB.

Another thing to consider would be if Tower Top Amps are going to be employed with the new system. It would be really easy to create intermodulation issues if you slam too much signal into a TTA if the system was designed for 5 watt "portables".

The day's of running maximum power are gone forever and for them to replace the 50 watt radios with 25 watt radios IMO will be totally unseen by the end user due to the use of a voting receiver system. In the 10 site simulcast/voted system that I manage we turned the 15 watt MCS mobiles down to 7.5 watts and use 1/4 wave antennas because the system is designed for medium building (15 dB loss) coverage with .5 watt (yes 1/2 watt is not a typo) ERP portables and have run operated with no issues in a 2500 square mile county.

Mark

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:00 pm

Three months and counting, two channels are "done", they sporadicaly stop working and there is horrible reception for some significant areas of the town. These were places that suffered similar radio outages on portables but were clear as a bell from a mobile. They're supposed to "upgrade" the primary dispatch/operations channel, but they've been told they have to fix the other two before they can touch another one. I'd hate to be a LEO at this stage calling for help in one of those deadzones at this stage...

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:25 pm

That sucks, but I can't say I didn't see it coming.

whatnext · Post by **whatnext** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:05 am

Hey Mark,
Is Henry still at PBSO??
How about Cam??

Jean's Son in Pa

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:00 am

whatnext wrote:Hey Mark,
Is Henry still at PBSO??
How about Cam??

Jean's Son in Pa

Hey there...how ya doing? Stayin warm up there I hope.

Henry passed away about 2 years ago from medical conditions. An unfortunate loss...Henry was a super guy and a wealth of radio information.

Yes Cam is still at the SO. and I transferred from the SO to the County 5 yrs. ago to spearhead the 800 project. To date its been smooth sailing and working great.

PM me when you have a chance and I'll give you additional info.

Mark

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:04 pm

Well an update to my story, my local moto dealer still hasn't put together our new dispatch tower configuration (still hearin the same be here in three weeks routine while they try to fix our operations channel and the police ops channel).

Anyway, this past Thursday, the 5th, our PSAP loses the ability to issue clear QCII tones to set off pagers. They call up our local ambulance service to tone out which works clearly for all of the agencies on the frequency.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE DEALER TECHS ARE BLAMING THE PROBLEM ON!!!

The techs levied all the problems on a the 40W radio operating from the base of our dispatch as the cause for the PSAP to lose crisp tone out! I got my butt reamed by the Captain of the local police because I'm causing a life threat to all the residents because I won't let those technicians put a 25W radio!!!

I have two statements I made to my defense:
1. Our damn radio wasn't even transmitting when the problems developed.
and
2. When their damn system stopped working our f'in 40W radio save the f'in day for 13+ residents who picked that day to have a medical emergency.

ATTENTION MOTOROLA: THIS IS WHY I WANT THE SOFTWARE TO SERVICE MY CUSTOMERS WHO THINK YOUR LOCAL DEALER IS A FLAMING SACK OF PUTZES!

GAREAWGAERTGGQEAERRRR!

chartofmaryland · Post by **chartofmaryland** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:42 am

G.D. Yep thats f***ed up, Uh huh thats for sure, Ain't no doubt there.

ro · Post by ro » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:02 pm

Mavericknet, how's your system going?
How did it turn out?

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:59 pm

Well, as of last monday (count the days from my first post, I'm not) and the dispatch channel is finally up and running. To which I've heard through the grapevine to watch out because their looking to call the FCC on people who run over 40 watts (checked this morning, still 50 watts on the license).

Right now I can hear a distortion that adds a level of static the transmission every three or four seconds of the transmision that last about two or three seconds....

MDC is annoying (especially the emergency alert button the dog warden keeps sitting on) The radios have no scan, no tone encode or decode.... and I qoute, "those options are saftey risks".

All in all, if you don't count the times the systems would just shut down due to overheat/overuse and the lack of PL encoding... the old system sounded much better. Time will tell if it will start to sound better and if we get portable radios that are better programmed.

I'm still waiting on Motorola do grant me a CPS license, I keep calling every day and leaving a voicemail on a vice presidents mailbox... next I'll start faxining an applicaiton every week.... anybody know any better methods....

If I was a stockholder in this company I'd be mighty pissed off at the way they run their show (turning down 0-work sales, being rude to customers that are seeking your business.)

Oye... opinions?

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:30 pm

mavericknet wrote: The radios have no scan, no tone encode or decode.... and I qoute, "those options are saftey risks".

WHAT??

fubb26 · Post by **fubb26** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:50 pm

maverick can you share for us in the area the frequency or call leters so we can listen?

if not can you PM me so i can listen i am curious as to what is going on out there on long island.

kb4mdz · Post by **kb4mdz** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:39 am

Mavericknet -

Wow, do you sound like you have problems.

Couple questions, and maybe you can also re-cap for everyone:

You say the MDC is annoying; that I can believe. There should be an option to not repeat MDC signalling; even to mute it going to the dispatch console. (I know of 2 systems that do that; one on GE-Star, and one on MDC & DTMF).

And ask the 'techs' exactly how a 40W radio can damage a system. Sounds like smoke to me. Maybe only if you transmitted those 40W about 6 inches from one of the receive antennas.

I'm gonna guess that the engineering for doing the receive sites was done based on 25W mobiles; so what for 40W?

Details, please.

kb4mdz

What are the voters? Motorola? JPS?

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:34 pm

I haven't spoken to any engineers, most of the tech now avoid me like the plague because they've realized I'm not satisfied with "Hey these new radios have zones" that they've been giving everybody else. I don't know what brand voters they've got. I'm sure that it's Motorola transmission gear.

The MDC repeat is on purpose, and now I'm quite glad, using the old method of listen and write I've managed to record a scrap book of about 2/3s of the MDC codes in use by the department I service. It makes hunting down people who accidently pressed their emergency alert button much easier. And it's getting annoying, at least twice per week one of them goes off.

I would assume that the system was designed around 25w mobile.. the only question I'm left with is why? We have so many simplex channels that would benefit from 40w on direct transmit why curtail the system?

The biggest thing I'm left with right now is that there is a completly dead zone around one of our highly used transport corridors, portables don't work and non-40w moblie coverage is spotty. When I told one of the powers that be to ask about it they said there were told that it's going to be a dead zone because it's always been a bad coverage area..... WTF???? That's the kind of excuse you give with the old busted a$$ system, not the one you give on the brand new $3million system... especially with a sparsly populated cell tower no more thant five hundred feet from the area in question.

GRRRRRrrr, what a mess.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:04 pm

I suppose it is too late to tell Motorola to take all their garbage back go with Kenwood Systems??

Quarterwave · Post by **Quarterwave** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:25 pm

Sounds like this is still a mess. You should call M on your dealer and ask for a FTR or field engineer, NOT ASSOCIATED with the dealer to come in for a freindly Q & A. I would think Motorola would like to know that it's product and name are being damaged. These techs are smoking POT!
Sounds like smoke and mirrors are a way of life for this dealer. Call your congressman! Everybody else does, this is public saftey and Bush and the boys are concerned. Where is Tom Ridge's freakin number....
This makes me mad, too!

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:30 pm

Quarterwave wrote:These techs are smoking POT!

Pot?? No way. I'm thinking more like crack cocaine or heroine. Maybe even methanphetamines. Or perhaps all of them together!

thebigphish · Post by **thebigphish** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:31 pm

i agree with quarterwave. Some properly filed complaints with mother M should bring some heat down on this local yokel of a authorized dealer, especially if you hint that the quality has since been poor and are threatening to go with a different vendor. This guy sounds like a joke. Are there any more M dealers in the reigon who can come in for a 2nd opinion? I'm sure if you throw a lunch and a beer at another rep, they might come in and say on the sly what they think....

oh. and matt, happy 2500.

chpalmer · Post by **chpalmer** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:04 pm

This is wild

If we did this to our customers theyd lench us! Ask them what a Winegard antenna will do to their non protected system.

http://www.winegard.com/interference.htm

As a Mot dealer I agree. If they are this incompetent, go talk to Kenwood!

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:35 pm

Here's the latest update, I was out of town for a day, they called one of our directors and demanded to install the radio due to the "bad signals" coming from "our" radio.

True there was a god awful hum comming from the temporary base station that (believe-it-or-not) was constructed by the SAME radio shop. So anyway, they drilled a hole in the wall where it was convenient for them (right smack in between where the two computer screens are installed when we get the newsystem..) THEN they mount they yagi antenna pointing THROUGH the attic exhaust fan... Is it just me or when that puppy kicks on that radio is gonna sound like sh!t?

Then they unplugged our BRAND NEW trunk tracker scanner to make room to plug in their power supply... Meanwhile there was a big sign on the console do not touch <DANGER>... That's my powersupply I leant to this company to power there radios.. It's unfused and dangerous for someone to go monkying around inside the console.. do I have any rights to say "No get the f' out of the console"?

Grrr grumble gumble gumble...

Mike in CT · Post by **Mike in CT** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:03 pm

Maverick:

whats the frequency in question... Would like to listen to it across the river here in Southern CT.

Maybe we can get some ideas after listening...

GL...

Mike in CT

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:48 pm

Yea, me too. At this point, I would be threating arrest for trespass if they so much as set foot on the property ever again.

ro · Post by ro » Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:07 pm

Whoa, be careful they don't remove the attic fan because of "bad signals"

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:39 am

I must admit though, the intermittent sound dropout is gone, they system is mostly working, though I have noticed we now get more "collision" than we used to.. When two radios key up they absolutly destroy each other. The older repeater would just key a low level distortion but the first transmitter would still be heard. Sorry guys, I don't post frequency because many of the opinions I have posted here could land me in a libel case... and I have no doubt these $@^%@&&^%6 would do it....

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:07 pm

If you could, please name this dealer, so we can all AVOID any dealings with them. I suspect it is not a MSS, but one of the radius shops on the Island. I agree with all that you should call and complain to Motorola. The only problem I see is that unless the license is in your name or your department name they may blow you off. Another good way to bring pressure to bear is at the conferences. If you are going to the EMS or Fire Chiefs conferences, get with one of the natiional sales people and ask for a FTR or a rep out of Schaumburg. Don't give up, keep harassing them.
I can think of a similar instance where the local dealer anxious to make a 37 unit sales, neglected to tell our dept, that the radios we had were upgradeable to the new required specs. That dealer no longer does our dept or any other in this county.

ro · Post by ro » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:09 pm

A small fairy tale...

A guy who was interested in ham radio was interested in information about an antenna. So he phoned the radio shop closest to his location. The radio shop owner was very rude on the phone and told him that they only made business with the "big" ones and that small hams were wasting his (the shop owner's) time.

Unfortunately, some time later, the guy that phoned the radio shop was one of the decision makers for a large county-wide public safety radio net that was to be build. When the name of this radio shop appeared on the bidder's list, it was the first one that was canceled out...

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:39 am

ro wrote:Unfortunately, some time later, the guy that phoned the radio shop was one of the decision makers for a large county-wide public safety radio net that was to be build. When the name of this radio shop appeared on the bidder's list, it was the first one that was canceled out...

That can't be the reason as to why the vendor was removed from the list. He had to of made some other mistake in his bidders response.

As the "Purchasing Dept" is the final say in gov't procurement they wouldn't just go with the "tale of a ham radio operators woe's" and would require a clear "technical" determination as to why they couldn't provide the system/service. Personal preference or past relationships have no place in gov't procurements.

Now if the selected vendor wanted to use this shop as a sub-contractor to perform installation or repair services they CAN be rejected as a subcontractor if they have a history of past performance or poor reputation, but that would be one heck of a document that Purchasing and vendor would be sure to research fully.

jhooten · Post by **jhooten** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:39 am

Now Mark, stand there straight faced, look me in the eye, hold out your hands so we can see your fingers are not crossed and tell me you have never "lost" a bid sheet from a vendor because he was a royal jerk.

Procurement/Contracting/Purchasing/Business Office may have the final say (on things over $2500 in my case) but they are going to follow the advice of the subject matter expert on the technical parts of the contracts. If I don't think mom and pop down the street can handle the install of the new TRS based on past dealings with them they won't get the job, unless they can document how they plan to meet the goals and then they will have to post a performance bond. We have this certificate called Contracting Officers Technical Representative. It does carry a bit of weight.

mavericknet · Post by **mavericknet** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:47 am

Here's some more juice for this story, when they were designing this "new" system, they displaced some senior citizen's buses for the "new" ambulance channel... well... they neglected to tell anyone (I knew) that made decisions that there is an unmanned piece of survey equipment in the area during the summer monts that bombards the channel with data every five or so seconds...... hehehe, you should hear the people screamin at my because "my" radios suck...

For reference, the radios they're speaking of have not been turned in for programming and are still open squelch on that channel. There was no PL encoder on any of the old towers so OS was the only way to go... Having legit software for the ht/cdm 1250's would be nice. I'm the only person that knows the password for them, and I will burn in he!! before I give it to the local MSS (Yes they are the area MSS) they recently merged with another vendor from up island, but non of the management changed.

I got feedback from a high ranking police official that he would arrest and "dumb volunteer" found tinkering with any radio that uses the town system... Considering my volunteer status, I drove on over to the radio shop and proceeded to take digital pictures of all of the MSS staff's vehicles... let's just say they guys leave most whackers and buffs in the dust... I only have one lightbar on my truck.... This comes important from the software standpoint, so long as I prove I have a license for the software and banner my company name when I'm working, he won't do squat.

Well to date, weather's been good so the fan hasn't kicked on in the attic, still waiting for the moment. What can I expect, electical noise, desensing? distorted transmission... blown radio? (I wish)

Seriously, if someone has a cousin, friend, indentured lacky, person owing a covered your a$$ favor... I really need to find a receptive licensing person inside motorola.... cause I got jerked around by the VP for long enough....

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:16 am

jhooten wrote:Now Mark, stand there straight faced, look me in the eye, hold out your hands so we can see your fingers are not crossed and tell me you have never "lost" a bid sheet from a vendor because he was a royal jerk.

Procurement/Contracting/Purchasing/Business Office may have the final say (on things over $2500 in my case) but they are going to follow the advice of the subject matter expert on the technical parts of the contracts. If I don't think mom and pop down the street can handle the install of the new TRS based on past dealings with them they won't get the job, unless they can document how they plan to meet the goals and then they will have to post a performance bond. We have this certificate called Contracting Officers Technical Representative. It does carry a bit of weight.

Nope never "lost" a bid sheet in my 16 years in gov't. I have had vendors disqualified for one reason or another (usually due to incorrect paperwork), but we never intentionally caused them to fail. It's was only their past inability to perform or not being able to afford the insurance or bonding requirements of the County as to why they weren't selected, that's if only they were the lowest bidder.

Now remember, a selection board only makes the reccomendation. They can't re-write or change Purchasing Rules. Purchasing can disqualify a vendor on a paperwork technicality even if they were selected by the board and there is no re-course except to select the second one or re-bid, but the re-bid process is generally frowned upon.