Motorola officially promotes that only their new XTS2500 and XTS5000 portables are capable of both 3600 and 9600 [Astro25] trunking, however folks here will tell you that the XTS3000 can also operate on both types of systems.
After considerable discussion with Motorola, they will admit that the XTS3000 can be flashed for Astro25 trunking. Then they will tell you that you don't want to do it. First - it is expensive - since the radio mush have Smartzone and Omnilink features to support Astro25 - if you are starting from an H37 Smartnet flashcode - the cost could be around $1200.00!
Then they tell you that you will lose features. The radio will lose all private call and interconnect features. Apparently - there isn't enough memory in the radio to support everything. What may not be immediately apparent - in terms of memory - they are talking about room for features in the radio's FIRMWARE.
Hence - the warning. Since all the features won't fit into a single firmware load - it follows that the 9600 flash must require a SPECIAL version of firmware. That is a fact. There is a range of firmware that supports 9600 trunking. The flashcode alone will not make a radio operate 9600 properly.
Versions R06.10.00 through R06.13.00 will do 9600 trunking [there may be more version numbers - probably all R06.xx.xx - but these are verified]. 9600 capable firmware does not support private call and interconnect. Even if you could load a non-9600 codeplug back into a radio with this firmware it still won't have those features. Also - loading a 9600 codeplug into a radio with standard firmware - even the current R07.xx.xx versions - will not work properly.
If you are going to buy one of these radios and expect to use it on a 9600 system - regardless of whether the seller says it has the right flash or if you think you are going to upgrade it yourself - you need to be sure the firmware matches your expected use.
XTS3000 and Astro25 Trunking - A WARNING
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thebigphish
- Posts: 1477
- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:10 pm
- What radios do you own?: AM/FM
my sentiments exactly....i've long thought about that as planned obsolescence. It drives me mad when i get something that has ONLY 128k or 256k of firmware ram...what the hell...dump in a 16mb chip...work the code, and use it!
"How do you plan to outwit Death?"
"With a knight and bishop combination; I will destroy his flank." --Antonious Block
"With a knight and bishop combination; I will destroy his flank." --Antonious Block
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N4KVE
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:35 am
- What radios do you own?: APX XTS XTL TRBO 900MHZ
XTS 3K 9600
Hello all. Here is my experience with that radio. I have had M portables since 1971. An HT-200 vhf on the old IMTS mobile phone freqs. MX's MT 500's and when Nextel went to digital, I got boxes of barely used MTX-8000's B3's & B7's for $75.00 each. Feb 03 I decide it's time for an XTS-3000. Being a newbie on those radios I started reading this forum. Nick aka Watchbuddy was the hot topic then. I purchased one of his radios on EBAY. It was a 9600 model with a flashcode of 548008-000480-9. Host & dsp 7.08.00 8.02.02. I assumed if it could do 9600 it would also do 3600. After 2 months the radio arrived. I took it to my friend's shop & he plugged it into his computor. His jaw dropped and he said "I've never seen these screens before. We're f*****." He called his buddy, an engineer just outside of Chicago and asked what to do. His buddy said to read the radio with MTSX LAB. then send the S-record up to Chicago. 10 minutes later the solution returned on the internet. This was loaded into the radio & all was fine. The radio now programmed like normal. Digital for the state system & analog for the local county. The engineer sent me flashcode 599108-5F4600-1. This was very similar to Nick's 'whored out flashcode". He also said this flashcode was in all the factory loaners carried by the engineers at M just outside of Chicago. This radio has worked perfectly since then. I use it as a fancy scanner, and some simplex use at the mall with my gal. Besides I would rather buy a loaded Nick radio than a stripped factory radio. H35, Astro ready, etc. Just my 2 cents worth. 73'S to all. GARY N4KVE
makes sense
Your answer is good, and answers a question I've had for 6 years.
The State of Michigan had XTS-3000s deployed on their new, P25 System in 1999. There was trouble with their 3000s (COSMO), that was difficult to 'mimic' in the lab, since you needed a 9600 baud control channel system, and few existed at the time.
It would often indicate a 'system busy' when there were actually channels available - and it didn't happen 'all the time' - just once in a while.
This was in version 5.x. Firmware released after that (6.x) seemed to fix this problem, but again - some functionality went missing.
The processor in 3000 (a 68HC11) was also a bit 'slow' to do the 9600 baud.
Also, if the battery charge went down, you could see the ISP on a scope-meter get 'shortened' to less than the prescribed 33 mS for P25 trunking. It would truncate the ISP before you'd get a full packet in on the control channel, and the radio would respond with a 'system busy' tone and cease transmission.
'A little light' on memory might sound like a simple answer to a complex problem, but it now makes a lot more sense. The processor was working overtime to refresh that memory every time you had to perform some other function (in addition to P25 trunking 'overhead). This explains to me why a memory 'upgrade' is what was needed.
BTW - State of Michigan's 'fix' was interesting - they reconfigured system assets for 'dual' TSBKs (allowed in P25 systems according to the TSB-102s) - making the system's control channel 'less available' (e.g. more Control Channel Contention).
But, since they had way more capacity than they needed, they were able to do this for a time to get more mileage out of their old 3000s until they were able to buy new radios with more memory and a hotter chip/micro-P.
The State of Michigan had XTS-3000s deployed on their new, P25 System in 1999. There was trouble with their 3000s (COSMO), that was difficult to 'mimic' in the lab, since you needed a 9600 baud control channel system, and few existed at the time.
It would often indicate a 'system busy' when there were actually channels available - and it didn't happen 'all the time' - just once in a while.
This was in version 5.x. Firmware released after that (6.x) seemed to fix this problem, but again - some functionality went missing.
The processor in 3000 (a 68HC11) was also a bit 'slow' to do the 9600 baud.
Also, if the battery charge went down, you could see the ISP on a scope-meter get 'shortened' to less than the prescribed 33 mS for P25 trunking. It would truncate the ISP before you'd get a full packet in on the control channel, and the radio would respond with a 'system busy' tone and cease transmission.
'A little light' on memory might sound like a simple answer to a complex problem, but it now makes a lot more sense. The processor was working overtime to refresh that memory every time you had to perform some other function (in addition to P25 trunking 'overhead). This explains to me why a memory 'upgrade' is what was needed.
BTW - State of Michigan's 'fix' was interesting - they reconfigured system assets for 'dual' TSBKs (allowed in P25 systems according to the TSB-102s) - making the system's control channel 'less available' (e.g. more Control Channel Contention).
But, since they had way more capacity than they needed, they were able to do this for a time to get more mileage out of their old 3000s until they were able to buy new radios with more memory and a hotter chip/micro-P.
memory
xmo
thebigphish
Memory is cheap today, compared to when XTS-3000 was in development (early-mid '90s).
Since it was 'Motorola Semiconductors' memory, it was made with a 'proprietary interface' that no one else made, for use in Motorola radios.
It would require re-laying out the board to use someone else's memory chips...now you're talking time and big money, which a bunch of business types inside Motorola won't spend...they trump the MOL teams (Maintenance of Line) every time when it comes to spending money.
Here's a quote from inside: "It's cheaper to sell the customer new radios than to fix the problems with the old ones..."
Honest-to-God - that's the attitude. In the meantime, the customer waits (and waits, and waits and waits...)...
thebigphish
Memory is cheap today, compared to when XTS-3000 was in development (early-mid '90s).
Since it was 'Motorola Semiconductors' memory, it was made with a 'proprietary interface' that no one else made, for use in Motorola radios.
It would require re-laying out the board to use someone else's memory chips...now you're talking time and big money, which a bunch of business types inside Motorola won't spend...they trump the MOL teams (Maintenance of Line) every time when it comes to spending money.
Here's a quote from inside: "It's cheaper to sell the customer new radios than to fix the problems with the old ones..."
Honest-to-God - that's the attitude. In the meantime, the customer waits (and waits, and waits and waits...)...
Don't take no sh*t.
5000?
5000 was designed between 2000 and 2001; shipped first in December '01. Memory was cheap by then - cheaper yet today.
XTS-3000 was designed in the early '90s - back in the day when a typical desktop PC only had 8 MB of memory. (The first PC I built in '92 was a 486 DX 50 MHz machine with 8 MB of memory...I still have it; it's in the closet gathering dust...maybe upgrade the memory and load LINUX...)
The software engineers at MOT never much impressed me, and it seems the company went out of their way to hire the 'low hanging fruit' from every second-rate-state college, because they could get them cheap compared to graduates from Berkley, USC or MIT.
This explains the somewhat 'kluged' use of what little memory they have onboard; grossly inefficient, 'monolithic' design...looks like it was written by some hispanic kid with an attention span of about 5 seconds, working his way through 'junior college' by giving 'mambo lessons'...
XTS-3000 was designed in the early '90s - back in the day when a typical desktop PC only had 8 MB of memory. (The first PC I built in '92 was a 486 DX 50 MHz machine with 8 MB of memory...I still have it; it's in the closet gathering dust...maybe upgrade the memory and load LINUX...)
The software engineers at MOT never much impressed me, and it seems the company went out of their way to hire the 'low hanging fruit' from every second-rate-state college, because they could get them cheap compared to graduates from Berkley, USC or MIT.
This explains the somewhat 'kluged' use of what little memory they have onboard; grossly inefficient, 'monolithic' design...looks like it was written by some hispanic kid with an attention span of about 5 seconds, working his way through 'junior college' by giving 'mambo lessons'...
Don't take no sh*t.
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The Pager Geek
- Posts: 1250
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:31 pm
- What radios do you own?: Disney FRS
Version 7 coming out soon?
State of Michigan - a 'Smartzone Omnilink' system, originally had XTS-3000s. They started out version 5.0 and are now a 6.?.
Navy 'ELMRS', NW Region (Puget Sound area, mostly) has a 'Smartzone LE' system, which one Motorola 'salesman' described to me as 'Smartzone Light' - it's 9600 baud, but it works more like Smartnet, single-site trunking, sites linked together with DS-3 fiber or microwave. They're up to version 6.5.
Mostly XTS-5000s and XTL-5000s on the new Navy system.
But, they haven't a 'standard' ISSI (Inter RF-Subsystem Interface), as no 'standard' yet exists consistent with the requirements of TSB-102.BACC. This is supposed to be out in (system) version 7
Navy ELMRS is supposed to be nationwide, as is IWN (Integrated Wireless Network) for Justice and Treasurey. Both have to conform to current P25 standards for 9600 baud trunking, narrow-band.
The two programs both have this 'ISSI' problem to overcome between 'sites' in any RFSS and between RFSS's, and there is no standard yet for IP transport of the trunking protocols between bases.
Anyone heard anything new on MOT version 7, or is it all 'vaporware' at this point?
Navy 'ELMRS', NW Region (Puget Sound area, mostly) has a 'Smartzone LE' system, which one Motorola 'salesman' described to me as 'Smartzone Light' - it's 9600 baud, but it works more like Smartnet, single-site trunking, sites linked together with DS-3 fiber or microwave. They're up to version 6.5.
Mostly XTS-5000s and XTL-5000s on the new Navy system.
But, they haven't a 'standard' ISSI (Inter RF-Subsystem Interface), as no 'standard' yet exists consistent with the requirements of TSB-102.BACC. This is supposed to be out in (system) version 7
Navy ELMRS is supposed to be nationwide, as is IWN (Integrated Wireless Network) for Justice and Treasurey. Both have to conform to current P25 standards for 9600 baud trunking, narrow-band.
The two programs both have this 'ISSI' problem to overcome between 'sites' in any RFSS and between RFSS's, and there is no standard yet for IP transport of the trunking protocols between bases.
Anyone heard anything new on MOT version 7, or is it all 'vaporware' at this point?
Don't take no sh*t.