so what now... ? (APCO Phase 1)

Post by **batdude** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:30 pm

well, everyone seems to be well on their way to migration via MA/COM or Moto to P25.

everyone is of course - NOT everyone.

anyway.

as a multi-quantar owner.... and user.

we love digital. i prefer it over analog.

I consider digital FM just like another "mode" - like SSB, etc....

yes, it leaves the MAJORITY of hams out in the cold... (BRAAAAAAAAP!)

which, is the way we like it. (sorry)

anyway, from a public safety standpoint - what have we gained?

the transmissions are NOT any less consuming of bandwidth....

you can't fit multiple carriers onto a single RF channel....

now there is rumblings of a shift to TDMA for the next generation - along with a shift to AMBE vice IMBE for the vocoder.

three fold problem....

no one has any more money

TDMA will require a new hardware platform (i.e. new infrastructure and field units/radios)

AMBE will require a massive change in the DSP... and most probably new supporting ASIC's to support the new DSP algo...(see above)

damn...

sure was easy when everything was just analog.

of course, running des-xl on 2m was pretty obvious..... ofb ain't so much.

lol

doug

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:32 pm

Doug,

The situation we're in is the direct cause of technology being implemented too quickly in an industry where the previously installed radio systems were lasting 20+ years.

You can't apply throw-away IT and cellphone concepts to this market - its too expensive!

You are 100% right... just getting this far has cost a ton and there won't be money left to make the next move any time soon.

Don't forget the majority of radio is still analog around the country too.

Post by Pj » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:42 pm

Heh...that's a good post.

Take my current area...

At my work, we are VHF.
Town north...VHF
Airport in town SmartZone 800 IMBE
Town west UHF
Town south UHF LTR Passport
Town east UHF (soon to be Passport)
State police SmartZone 800 IMBE

We are making the swtich to VHF IMBE next month.

Never mind P25, MA/COM or whatever, how about a common frequency band plan...other that 800. (Oh, did I mention surrounding fire also has a good mix of lowband?)

So, we have conventional, UHF Trunked and 800 trunked all mixed in within a 10 mile radius of the PD. How's that for interop?

mike m · Post by **mike m** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:05 pm

Did you say interop ? Does it really exist in other cities ?

The term interop is just fancy talk for BS out here in the south west.

Arizona Dept of Public safety (state police) has been trying to get interop channels programmed in their new p25/800 avionics radios for every one of the newly installed 800 systems down in the Phoenix metro area and so far none of the individual systems administrators will let the State police program their avionics radios with their systems interagency talkgroups because there are no interagency talkgroups that exist.

It doesn't matter that the State Police provide valuable air support for a lot of these communities, they figure they can still do things the old way which is to go from one agencies dispatch to another agencies dispatch via landline which of course adds several minutes delay to ATL/hot calls.

Interoperability is a total joke out here. Every PD in the metro phoenix area is on or planning to go to seperate 800MHz digital systems and not one can talk to the other because they obviously never heard of interop which of course was one of the big reasons why everyone was going to 800MHz P25 wasn't it ?

Off my rant now

Post by **batdude** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:57 pm

interop before the days of p25

mutual aid analog channels, innercity, blah blah ad naseum

interop after the switch to p25

mutual aid analog channels, innercity, blah blah

these people just don't get it.

when the 700 band was opened, the federal gov't should have tied EVERYONE down and said "THOU SHALT MOVE TO 700 MHz NO LATER THAN XXX DATE OR THOU WILL GET NO HIGHWAY FUNDING"

jesus - this is not that hard

doug

Post by **wavetar** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:02 pm

Interop is alive & well here in Nova Scotia. The provincial SmartZone Omnilink system is being used by the RCMP, Dept of Transport, Dept of Natural Resources, Provincial Corrections, dozens of smaller departments totalling approx 5000 radios. Every single radio has 6 mutual aid talkgroups, as well as 2 simplex mutual aid frequencies. On top of that, every department has dedicated interop talkgroups that other departments can use for liaison purposes (saving the mutual aid TG's for major incidents). All 314 volunteer FD's in the province were given a mobile or portable radio (whatever their preference) to allow them interop ability. Several have since switched fully to the system, including approx 500 radios for the Halifax County FD's. Technology isn't the problem, poor planning is the real culprit.

Todd

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:14 pm

Is digital FM?

Cam

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:19 pm

when the 700 band was opened, the federal gov't should have tied EVERYONE down and said "THOU SHALT MOVE TO 700 MHz NO LATER THAN XXX DATE OR THOU WILL GET NO HIGHWAY FUNDING"

jesus - this is not that hard
doug

Is there room for that in the 700mhz band?

Also the people that would have to say that are rep of each state, most of whom would have much more reason not to then to.

Cam

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:43 pm

P25 Phase 1 supports up to 2 talkpaths per 25 kHz of assigned bandwidth. Phase 1 also supports DES-OFB or AES, with no degredation in voice quality.

Phase 2 is where we will really see the improvement in spectrum efficiency. We will have 4 talkpaths per 25 kHz channel for P25 trunked systems. Phase 2 P25 will involve TDMA and 4 talk paths per 25 kHz in trunked systems. However, Phase 2 P25 conventional systems will still use FDMA at 2 talk paths per 25 kHz.

Phase 2 will require all new hardware, including both subscriber sets and infrastructure equipment.

Phase 3 P25, which is expected to follow Phase 2 much more quickly than Phase 2 will likely follow Phase 1, will focus on the robust use of the Internet. Phase 3 will again require equipment upgrades, albeit the Phase 2 infrastructure (e.g., The Summit) are expected to be firmware upgradable to Phase 3.

Lots of changes in the making.

larry

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:31 am

Lots of changes are coming you say....yeah now that they realize the internet has the ability to squash all this phase 1 and 2 bullcrap. It seems to me they got leapfrogged by the internet and have abandoned a step 2 for a step 3 but secretly someone from APCO will admit deep down that the step is really their repacement step 2.

Post by **Wowbagger** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:45 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:Phase 2 is where we will really see the improvement in spectrum efficiency. We will have 4 talkpaths per 25 kHz channel for P25 trunked systems. Phase 2 P25 will involve TDMA and 4 talk paths per 25 kHz in trunked systems. However, Phase 2 P25 conventional systems will still use FDMA at 2 talk paths per 25 kHz.

larry

Actually, the TDMA thing is still up in the air. What is already avaialable is the transition to CQPSK at 6.25 kHz per channel, with no other modifications to the protocol.

They are also talking about going to CQPSK + AMBE + 2 slot TDMA which would give 2 channels per 6.25 kHz.

Gads is *that* going to be fun to validate (NOT!).

radiokid · Post by **radiokid** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:50 pm

I think the state I live in is far behind in technology but most county deputies can talk to State Patrol and other Counties because of 39.9Mhz. It may not be the greatest but it is atleast some form of Interop. There is only a couple of counties in the Eastern Part that have radio on other system. A Emergency Communnications person in this states need Low band, Hi Band, UHF and 800, so that would fill your car up quick.
Radio Kid

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:07 pm

all of our existing mutual aid channels are analog CSQ! They plan on staying that way for some time, although new narrowband statewide fire mutual freqs are coming online.

Even the new state supported interop channesl are guess what? ANALOG NARROWBAND!

Rather humour as the state is trying to get STARCOM21 off the ground.

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:41 pm

well let's see: we had more "interop" in metro atlanta back when everyone was on conventional VHF and UHF. motorola pushed 800 trunking down every county/city's throats. an Atlanta PD officer can't talk to a Fulton officer EVEN THOUGH they have IDENTICAL RADIOS and SYSTEMS, but see, everyone around here wants complete TOTAL CONTROL of their system. Fulton doesn't share TG's or ID's with ATL, Cobb won't allow anyone on their system and is anal retentive about programming other systems into their radios. Everyone county here has it's own Smartnet II (Cobb, Fulton, City of Atlanta, DeKalb, Gwinnett, Rockdale and Fayette) but when the great idea to create a "regional radio system" like Indianapolis/Marions' MECA model came out, everyone loved it until the reality hit that YOU HAVE TO GIVE SOMETHING TO GET SOMETHING. No one wanted "IN" and give up their precious "control".

Now Motorola is pushing P25 TRUNKED using the magic buzzword INTEROPERABILITY. Ok, so if we don't share ID's and TG's. are we NOT right where we are now? (just much poorer than before). Could not a simple 500 dollar 50 watt VHF conventional mobile on mutual aid freqs be more than enough interop comms? It relies on no infrastructure for Osama to blow up, it is cheap, affordable, and easy to implement. How can one have "interoperability" if you are locked into a PROPRIETARY SYSTEM like Astro or Pro-Voice? True, the AIR INTERFACE is open, but if you have to be on a trunked system, the open platform goes out the window. Agencies are locked into to buying one vendor's system and equipment, thus creating what we have in metro Atlanta. Then no one wants to share the "key" to their little "realm". See the problem we have?

Post by **batdude** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:55 pm

roger on atlanta.

there's only one way to fix that problem.

elect new politicians.

doug

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:23 pm

Guys, guys, guys...Take a deep breath. Elect new politicians, and revert technology back to analog dinosaurs? I don't think so. Analog FM has changed very little since the late 1970's. That was 30 years ago. What type of cars, cell phones, or PCs would we have if the attitude was to stay with old technology? I think you might be confusing nostalgia with moving forward. I, too, grew up on Heathkits, and Micor analog FM radios with PL, etc. Wasn't Systems90 great? Six shooters and slide rules were also fun, but Glocks and calculators came out. These anti-P25 arguments sound a lot like the old gummers sittin' on the front porch and waxing nostalgic about the good ol' times, and arguing the advantages of tubes over solid state, of 33 rpm vinyl over CDs, or tape over DVD, etc.

If nothing else, the Dept of Homeland Security will drive us all to P25, and quickly. The real beef ought to be how the local officials can figure a way to leverage the required P25 funding out of the Fed. Now there is a good place to look for politicians who can get the job done.

larry

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:50 pm

Larry,

I never said I was "anti-P25" nor do I think that it isn't the future. However, by keeping networks PROPRIETARY like Moto and MA/COM want to do by forcing TRUNKED P25 versus CONVENTIONAL OPEN AIR INTERFACE P25, it is only stunting the growth of P25.

Agreed, analog FM is old hat. But AFFORDABLE P25 radios are not in circulation. The majority of the USA is rural and low density population thus lower budget and cannot afford nor do they need high tier P25 (or any) trunked system for their communications. And the Feds push P25 all they wish, if your local SO or PD or FD can't afford Motorola's 3500 dollar portable of the week, they won't buy it. Personally I would much rather my PD or SO spend their budget on more important items like new patrol vehciles, training, tactical gear and how about this: more officers on the street than "cool" radios that don't anything BETTER than conventional radio of any flavor can do.

P25 will make more headway when more CONVENTIONAL P25 systems come online. Not everyone needs, nor wants nor can AFFORD Motorola's overpriced system solutions and until Kenwood, Vertex and Icom get serious about P25 Conventional these users will still be analog.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:51 pm

Erik,

You said: "Not everyone needs, nor wants nor can AFFORD Motorola's overpriced system solutions and until Kenwood, Vertex and Icom get serious about P25 Conventional these users will still be analog."

I wouldn't hold your breath for any of the off-shore providers to beat Motorola's P25 subscriber set prices. For instance, ICOM's low tier P25 portable is not even commercially available at this time. Nevertheless, ICOM recently announced that their soon-to-be-launched low end P25 portable will be street priced around $1,750. Interesting, since Motorola's XTS1500 P25 IMBE equipped portable has been available for several months now, and it is list priced at just over $1,200 (not factoring in a typical discount of around 15%). It has 5 watts of RF output power, with 16 modes, which is plenty adequate for many users' needs. Compare ICOM's anticipated street price of $1,750 to Motorola's XTS1500 "street price" of just over $1,000. I wouldn't consider $1,000 for a brand new IMBE equipped P25 set as much more than the price of a typical legacy analog FM portable.

Looks to me like P25 can be very affordable, and to date, I know of no other vendor with a P25 IMBE equipped portable that can even come close to touching Motorola's price. BTW, Motorola will be launching their XTL1500 P25 IMBE equipped mobile this spring, with an expected street price of just over $1,000. Not bad!

Larry

P.S. Wonder what will happen to the pricing of those eBay hacked, parts built ASTRO Sabers, XTS3000’s, ASTRO Spectras, etc. that typically have no IMBE firmware, once folks get the word about the new XTS1500/XTL1500?

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:20 pm

Larry,

We haven't seen Icom's offering nor Kenwood nor anything YET so let's not go by "anticipated" versus "actual". I think the Japs have made great headway in the conventional analog world. Compared to Ma M's offerings, I will take a Kenwood TK-290/390 or Vertex VX-900 over ProSeries/Waris made in China GARBAGE anyday. Let us see when these products are actually AVAILABLE and how well they perform.

And you must consider the CO$T factor of doing business with Ma M.
Everything IS more EXPENSIVE. Service, parts, software licenses, etc are all JACKED UP when compared to those "off shore" competitors. Comparing what's out there now in the conventional radio world, Kenwood, Vertex and Icom are much easier to deal with, and cheaper than Ma M. And of late, product quality is on par (if in some cases better) than Ma M. Motorola isn't building quality 20 year service life radios like the Saber, HT600/MT1000 anymore. The competition has picked up where they left off developing solid, performing and refined conventional product lines and made them AFFORDABLE.

I hope that the Japs start investing as much in developing P25 as they have perfecting their analog offerings. I would LOVE a TK-290/390 series ala P25. I would gladly take it ANYDAY over an overpriced (and ugly IMO) XTS5000. But considering that P25 is pretty much a Western World standard, they must weigh how much they are gonna put into R & D, tooling up, support, etc for what would be a limited market compared to their other product lines (business, marine, aviation, amateur, etc).
Time will tell and the bottom line is if P25 doesn't make headway to all of the conventional users, it will be a flop. Just like HDTV. (how many people do you know are running out to buy an HDTV to watch reruns of "Gilligan's Island" in 780p?) The government has come to realize that you can't regulate technology demand. The market will dictate it for you.

Is it 10 times better than what it replaces (conventional analog) to justify the cost? I will withhold comment for the moment. I see nothing so spectacular about P25 as an air interface that NBFM can't do. Just because the Feds say it's better doesn't mean it is better for everybody.

We will see...

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:45 am

Erik,

ICOM announced that it plans to price their P25 low end P25 portable at $1,750 street price. This is not something I am anticipating---this price is ICOM's price based on a recent ICOM official press release. This price is approaching double that of Motorola's XTS1500 ($1,000). You seem to be operating on all emotion, Erik. You can't argue with the arithmetic. Sorry, but the Japanese vendor is way higher on price.

I wouldn't overly bash Motorola on software prices, either. Take a look at what it costs to buy the GE (sorry to use their old name!) programming software for their P25 radios---about $2,000! There was an extensive thread on this on the Batboard. That is more than 5 times the price of ASTRO programming software.

As to servicing prices, Motorola's flat rate depot pricing is a very good buy. Consider the fact that you can take a $5,000 portable and have it completely repaired, retuned and warrantied for a flat rate fee of around $400. This includes a firmware uplift, too. Send it in FedX on a Monday, and have it back by Friday. Motorola pays for the return shipping, and matches your method of shipping. Pretty good deal.

larry

astro461 · Post by **astro461** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:59 am

I don't understand why we need digital transmission and trunking. In terms of voice I find very little difference in audio quality between analog FM and IBME. Secondly if I calculate right there are 800 25Khz channels between 150 and 170MHz and that much more on UHF. I just don't see a need for bandwith conserving technology. How many more channels do you need? When I do spectrum sweeps in the Philadelphia metro area a very low pecentage of frequencies have traffic at any given time?

Why not just give everyone a 200 channel VHF FM Japanese radio for $500 and be done with it. A few repeaters here and there. Anyone can switch to anyone elses channel and talk. The billions of dollars saved could be returned to the taxpayers to stimulate the economy. I could then by a xts3000.

Service? If it breaks you can buy 5 more new ones for the price of one XTL5000! Throw the broken one away.

Data? The commercial carriers do data better and cheaper with off the shelf components where the cost is amortized across millions of users. If a disaster knocks out Verizon, revert to voice.

Does the Philly FD really need and Astro SmartZone system with XTS3000 radios with DES-OFB encryption for the fireground channels to conceal the location of the dumpster fire from Usama Bin Laden? What if your in a basement and the building collapses on top of you but your too far to make the repeater?

Is it me, or do we do digital modulation and trunking because we can and not because we really need it.

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:17 am

Astro261 hit the nail on the head. It comes down to the push to P25 is not out of NEED but out of folks wanting to sell us new hardware every five years.

Astromodat: you point out that "VHF conventional is 30 years old"
Well it WORKS! How old is the Bell Telephone System? And it is still here, still smokin along, even when all else fails, the core switches and copper still work. Sure, it has been jazzed up with new ESS and routing, billing systems, etc but it is STILL the SAME OL' system. You still make your calls over that same ol' pair of copper (unless you are on fiber direct which most aren't) and it STILL goes through.

There are thousands of agencies nationwide happily using conventional VHF and UHF systems, they get excellent performance, it is cost effective for them, and they don't need digital radios or trunking systems of any flavor. They would much rather spend their limited budgets on more pressing issues like more cops on the beat, patrol cars, new fire apparatus, training, etc.

If it works don't fix it. Narrowband conventional solves the bandwidth issue, and with spectrum becoming available from TV, is it really an issue of "overcrowded spectrum"? In Atlanta, there is ZERO public safety on 460. Nothing but dead air on 460 and most of 450 (except MARTA who got sucked into buying an ripoff priced Astro P25 800 system. yeah, let's go buy new radios when the TRAINS DON'T RUN, BUSES RUN OUT OF GAS, and the stations are all derelict) is dead silent.

And as Astro261 pointed out, for the outlandish price of an XTL5000, one could buy perfectly capable, full featured NBFM conventional mobiles for a FRACTION of the cost. Service? Well we have a Kenwood service center right here in atlanta (Gwinnett) and their turnaround time is just as fast. Their radios cost 1/3 of the Moto price. And RSS? Last I checked I paid under a hundred bucks for my TK290/390 suite AND cable from a dealer!
I didn't have to sign some license agreement or play silly games.

It comes down to perspective. Do I think Astro/P25 is "cool"? Definately! Do I think it has it's place? Absoultely! Some major metro area like LA is what it was designed for. But the large percentage of PS users don't need nor can afford the high price tag. No emotion here Larry, it is about simple economies of scale, and P25 doesn't match the "10X" rule of being 10 times better than what it replaces (analog conventional) to justify the huge cost (at current) of migration.

When the radios get in the 500 dollar price point than you might have a different arguement.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:13 pm

Fight it with all your mite, Erik, but P25 is here to stay.

As to the Bell System, everything has been replaced long ago with DIGITAL (switches, transport, etc.). Yes, N-Cxr analog multiplexing, especially with E4W, was thought to be “just as good” as digital T-Cxr by the long-in-the-tooth folks. Even the copper distribution plant has been augmented with SLC systems, or other digital carrier systems, so VF is all but dead across the Bell network. DSL over copper will never match the speed of cable (I have 7 Mb/s Comcast cable, while some of my neighbors lug along at 1.5 Mb/s with slowpoke DSL over copper). Kind of like FM radios! Again, just like vinyl records, slide rules, taped based VCRs, and tubes, analog is yesterday's technology. Let it die a peaceful death.

In this regards, I agree that many of the economic backwater communities will be slow to change (I live in such an area, and it is a nice place to live), while the glitzy LAs have already taken the big dive to P25 digital.

BTW, you mention replacing subscriber sets every 5 years, Erik. Turns out that most big public safety agencies tend to wear out their subscriber sets about every 5 years anyways. The big departments typically buy Motorola, as opposed to the cheapie Kenwood, ICOMs, and various other off-shore radios. Turns out that the new P25 sets are not necessarily more costly than the analog junk they are replacing. I notice, Erik, that you keep conveniently ignoring my statement about the Motorola XTS1500, for a street price of $1,000, which is less than one-half the cost of a legacy analog FM MTS2000 portable. I won’t argue with you that you can get an FRS radio from any vendor, or a Tandy 2-Way radio for less than the price of an XTS1500 (I think you mentioned one of these class of radios, such as the Kenwood, or some such thing).

I know that some folks fight change tooth and nail. Take a deep breath, Erik, as the age of the horse and buggy is gone. For therapeutic reasons, if in the end you can't live with profound and rapid change from legacy analog FM junk to new digital P25 technology, I would recommend snuggling up with the greatest resistors to change in the Ham world---the venerable ARRL. They could write you a great white paper arguing why we should stick with analog FM, Morse code, and the like. Just a thought...

larry

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:52 pm

P25 is a RIPOFF. Everything about it is untrue when looked at and analyzed at a fundamental level. Yes you will have the nicest and most expensive stuff, but at what cost...pissing off your taxpayer and having to print so much money and put it into circualtion that eventually america's dollar becomes weak...Please I beg of you, anyone interested in trying to de-rail the fraudulent train of P25, I urge you to get in contact with me. We are donating to any qualifying municipality our IP based interoperability product and we guarantee that there will never be another issue with talking to any other agency around you. Please have your agency fill out our application, almost everybody is approved providing you can get it put into service. Just plug it in and connect it to the modem or ethernet jack. The system is completely secure and works like Napster, the more agencies that have it, the more powerful it becomes. P25 is nothing more than a way to get a city to spend a ton of money on the knee-jerk reaction of terrorism. Yes interoperability is a huge concern, but it is an even bigger concern when the perscription written to solve the problem actually does more harm than good.

Thanks for your time.

Steve Calabrese
Critical RF, inc.
(803)474-4745

Hoseman292 · Post by **Hoseman292** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:55 pm

batdude wrote:interop before the days of p25

mutual aid analog channels, innercity, blah blah ad naseum

interop after the switch to p25

mutual aid analog channels, innercity, blah blah

these people just don't get it.

when the 700 band was opened, the federal gov't should have tied EVERYONE down and said "THOU SHALT MOVE TO 700 MHz NO LATER THAN XXX DATE OR THOU WILL GET NO HIGHWAY FUNDING"

jesus - this is not that hard

doug

Amen Doug. You certainly hit the nail on the head with that one. I'd take it one step further though and deny ANY grant for communications gear unless they jointly made the move.

Tim
Silver Spring Maryland

Post by **batdude** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:08 pm

The system is completely secure and works like Napster

i don't think i would associate the most notorious file-sharing software with ANYTHING having to do with public safety.....

that's definately a bad comparison...not to mention... questions like

"so can they download my dispatch audio?"

doug

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:02 pm

Sure that comment is a good thing. It highlights a DISRUPTIVE technology and shows what good tool it can be when used in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner, not the DESTRUCTIVE application of stealing or "sharing" music FILE'S. I think it is very CONSTRUCTIVE to let municpalities share information that may save a life or help conserve a whole lot of money, dont' you? Seamless integration is a great thing to associate with public safety or any radio application where multiple groups in different factions need to communicate to complete a common goal. They can basically eliminate all boundaries of using different bands and propri. formats. It is being used to highlight the fact that once anyone has the software installed at their repeater site/dispatch center they can see anyone else that is a radio user in their area (or across the world) that they can transparently talk to as if they were on the same system. It doesn't use downloading, it's more streaming than anything else. Yes it is secure, definitely more secure than any trunking system or repeater w/ a frequecy pair and PL, and in the security industry they say your only as strong as your weakest link so unless you are DES for the radio side you have your work to do before worring about the security of the SafetyNET. It's Just a hair less secure than SECURENET and this is why: the only real weak point or place to tap the audio from is the control point (where packetization of the incoming/outbound RF side is taking place.) and that is in your dispatch area which is staffed 24Hrs a day. So a dectective on his city/county 800 Trunking system working a big case can collaborate and exchange information with an FBI field office unit on VHF securenet conventional or even call him on his nextel for that matter via his DTMF keypad or making a request for the dispatcher to double click and connect the two from the control point. Very easy, very simple, very cheap. These things are going to change the world (of radio at least) It's called safetyNET and it's our pride and joy. Now shipping custom configured as low as $600.00 (rf deck/radio not included) DTMF version as low as $700.00...Get yours today!
http://www.criticalrf.com <--website still under construction due to massive market response, sorry

Call: (803)474-4745 ask for Steve

Thanks!
Steve Calabrese
CriticalRF, Inc
SafetyNET Creator and Preident

Post by **batdude** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:24 pm

oh.....

sorry....

MOTOBRIDGE

got it.

doug

jhooten · Post by **jhooten** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:46 am

About cost, A $3000 Astro Spectra is much more affordable today than a 4 channel crystal controlled Micor that cost $1500 25 years ago.

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:21 pm

MOTOBRIDGE....Hmm...Looks like I'll be filing suit Monday. Thanks for the info!..I never thought I'd make the majority of my money via a patent infrigement lawsuit, I always thought I'd make my money selling it. Looks like this is going to be one big david and goliath battle. Im surprised they had the balls to launch it in my backyard! I'll see em court.

Post by **batdude** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:54 pm

that's the funniest thing i've heard ALL DAMN DAY

thanks!

david vs. about 1500 goliaths would be more like it.....

you have a patent?

no?

doug

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:52 pm

I filed for the patent in mid-2002. Thanks to a savvy law firm in plantation of gold & rivisi, whom none the less is employed by none other than Motorola to do patent and trademark work, they have written and filed the patent in a very broad scope and under a very specific scope. In the next year or so a few versions will be kicked back and a few will pass the technical examination. No matter what, one will be granted we have an applications patent as well. I am determined at making sure that Motorola stays in the business they decided to hang themselves with by touting APCO 25. They arent moving into my 'hood and trying to change their song and dance all of a sudden...we were the first to claim this as a superior method rising from the lowly ranks of the ham radio community..Motorola wants to rape and pillage our very sacred ham techniques. ..this is our creation....HA! MotoBridge...I think corky from life goes on could have thought up a more intruiging name. maybe i'll get the guys who designed the opensource "thebridge" software testify that even the name has elements of theft. I publicly am declaring war on mororola and anyone who wants to sell our product can apply...we already have over 200 dealers in many different states in our network...Compete with motorola and sign up to be a distributor. PM me for details.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:17 pm

/\/\y 2 cents wrote:I think corky from life goes on could have thought up a more intruiging name.

jesus man, stereotype much?

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:28 pm

All the time. Thats how you identify markets. Shallow, but true. I mean, is it just me or do most gay men speak with a lisp or sorts..I always thought it was a stereotype but ever since I got out into the world and met more people, I noticed it IS true! Not all, but quite a bit. These things are out there for anyone to see. Is it a coincidence? Maybe. But retards lacking intellegence is scientifically provable.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:08 pm

wow.... just wow.

i got nothing

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:55 pm

Even Motorola can now see that not everyone can afford nor need their high priced trunking radios to have interoperability. And more and more public safety agencies are learning the hard way that proprietatry trunking systems aren't the answer if you want interoperability.

Last week here in Atlanta we had a hazmat situation that involved the evacuation of a heavily populated area of town (East Point). Of course mutual aid was the name of the game as the East Point fire and police department were quickly overwhelmed. Atlanta fire, Hapeville and College Park responded, as well as hazmat units from Fort Gillem. MARTA also responded by sending buses and rerouting train service.

What was funny is how the agencies with GOOD OLD RELIABLE CONVENTIONAL VHF COULD TALK TO EACH OTHER. East Point is on VHF, and had no problem communicating directly with Hapeville fire and PD also on VHF, who just switched over to the East Point PD and FD repeaters. Fort Gillem of course had VHF, and no problem there.

Who had issues communicating?
Atlanta Fire and MARTA (who just pissed away almost 65 million dollars on a proprietary 800MHz Astro P25 TRS) could not talk to each other, or anyone else respoding. Valubale personnel had to be assigned just to relay messages. Atlanta fire units got lost navigating the narrow streets of East Point because their fancy 44 million dollar trunked system COULD NOT TALK to anyone but their dispatcher. They couldn't talk to MARTA and coordinate the evac because MARTA and Atlanta city don't share TG's or ID's.

Yeah...P25 really made a difference for this incident didn't it.
Good old "antique" VHF conventional saved the day once again.
good news is no one was hurt, after 14 hours the 5000 residents were back in their homes. hopefully Atlanta fire will have sense and reprogram those VHF Spectra's they have in their fire trucks with East Point and Hapeville's repeaters for future use. No wait, I can see Motorola selling East Point a 50 million dollar P25 TRS for a town of 40,000 people.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:22 pm

just because a signal is analog doesnt make it really that much more "interoperable", your example above shows a lack of interoperability from a political standpoint more than a technical standpoint, which is a HUGE part of it all. Given that there are multiple bands involved.

using your example above, it sounds like while most of the agencies were on VHF, they happened to have each others systems programmed in their radios. What if that WANSNT the case? then they would have been out of communications with the other agencies.

Just as not having talkgroups on someone else's trunking system can keep people from talking to one another, so can not having the PL/DPL or even the whole repeater programmed into the radios in an analog scenerio.

What you are eluding to is that everyone should be on the same band and have each others systems programmed into each others radios... this is not practical at all, to suggest that everyone should "stay on VHF" because everyone else is there is as bad as "everyone should go to x band because..."

my main point is that the popular mindset of "analog is already inoperable" is not quite accurate. Analog to analog with matching PL/DPL, sure they talk, but so does Digital to Digital with the same protocols. Its what ELSE the system has that makes the difference (PL/DPL or ASTRO vs ProVoice)

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:05 pm

1- I never said everyone should switch to VHF or any band. All I pointed out is that agencies who were using conventional radio could communicate BECAUSE they share systems.

2- it is a hell of alot easier to share conventional channels than giving everyone access to everyone else's trunking system. for one, there ARE a finite number of ID's to hand out. There isn't this limitation with conventional radio.

3-conventional is easier to offer interoperability than any proprietary trunking system. East Point uses Motorola HT750's, HT1000's, Maxtracs. Hapeville uses Kenwood and Vertex as well as some older Moto genesis stuff. Try programming your Vertex or Kenwood on a Smartnet system if you have any luck getting it to work let us know.

4-I never said analog was superior to digital. What I did point out is that the agencies who had interoperability in this particular incident were using open standard conventional radios from different vendors and shared access to each other's repeaters. Those who had proprietary Motorola trunked systems were left with nothing. Political? Maybe, but again explain to me how even if Marta or APD did hand out ID's and TG's to everyone that would have helped when everyone else was on another band.

My point was that buying into Motorola's lies that trunking gives you interoperability proves itself to be a hinderance time after time. I am not anit P25 I welcome it, but if the point is to be interoperable, you can't be locked down to one vendor's offerings.

2wayfreq · Post by **2wayfreq** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:04 pm

We have similar problems out here in Riverside County, CA. The Sheriff went with Ericsson 800 MHz Analog EDACS. The City of Riverside PD is currently on UHF 460 and soon will convert it to ASTRO 460. Our Neighbors? Orange County is Motorola ASTRO 800 Encrypted, San Bernardino County is Type II Analog 800 Trunking with MTX radios. Riv. Co. Fire is on the VHF CDF (California Dept of Forestry) system.
A week or so back,our Sheriff helecopter was trying to contact a ground engine at the scene of an 11-44 (Fatal) Collision out in the Hemet area. The pilot asks what the Fire Tac freq was and dispatch relays the freq.
The pilot is trying to contact the ground unit with no success. My guess? They did not give the pilot the proper PL tone, all the pilot did was punch the freq into the avionics system and hit ENTER. So the Fire captain may have had a busy light on his radio but could'nt hear squat!
Why would they use tones in the first place? Beats Me!! The pilot is not going to remember to use them. They need to keep it on CSQ like our CALCORD channel for the Med Chopper.

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:15 pm

We're sure lucky here in Illinois

Everyone has

ISPERN 155.475
IREACH 155.055
IFERN 154.265
ESMARN 155.025
POINT 155.370
MERCI/HEAR system

all CSQ and everyone in the respective branch of service does listen to them.

Rather odd most other states didn't setup a similar sytem. I know CA has a large set of mutual-aid inter-service frequencies, but they like IL seem to be the exception.

so what now... ? (APCO Phase 1)

so what now... ? (APCO Phase 1)

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Interop in Nebraska, only on Low Band

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