Kenwood TK5210 pictures

n7maq · Post by **n7maq** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:29 pm

Here is some pictures of a demo we had a few months back.

Enjoy,

Jim.

Chato · Post by **Chato** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:06 am

Nice looking radio...

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:17 am

<< DROOL >>

ahh fresh meat!

Chato · Post by **Chato** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:04 pm

It would be really cool if itt had a full keypad. ~Chad

n7maq · Post by **n7maq** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:15 pm

It was a demo unit, so no luck. The unit that I'm getting will be the full keypad. I don't have an ETA, but I hope it's soon. The shop I work for has a demo unit on the way, but I think it's a model 2.

Jim.

va3wxm · Post by **va3wxm** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:39 pm

Very nice! MSRP?

n7maq · Post by **n7maq** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:37 pm

The basic unit with no display is $1,500.00
The display model (K2) like on the pics $1,750.00
The display with full keypad is $1,900.00

All prices I have posted are full list, for WSCA, or other government pricing Contact your local Kenwood dealer to purchase one.

Jim.

123 · Post by **123** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:46 am

I am selling full keypad units for $1,400 each. add DES-OFB $450 DES-OFB/AES $850 with full kenwood waranty PM for orders.

Post by **alex** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:57 am

can you post a few photos of the full keypad units? I would be curious to see them.

-alex

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:36 am

If you are coming to IWCE stop by the Kenwood Booth and ask for me Stan Glass

Splat · Post by **Splat** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:58 pm

Any news on a UHF version? I believe these are only VHF at this time, no? Also, this looks very similar to the TK-3180 portable. We've been using the 3180 for a while now and they are excellent radios. They've held up to drops and typical wear/tear with not a problem. The 5210 sure is purty.

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:18 pm

That information can be disseminated at the IWCE, please stop by the Kenwood booth and ask for Stan Glass

Splat · Post by **Splat** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:19 pm

I can't get there Stan. I'd love to, but work and time won't permit it. Thanks anyway.

123 · Post by **123** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:03 pm

No UHF version at this time but a 800Mhz model stands in its place.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:05 am

Nice looking radio.

It's fairly similar in style to the upcoming Tait P25 portable.

123 · Post by **123** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:25 am

Have a pic of the tait P25 radio? Will the tait radio do tetra also?

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:23 pm

123 wrote:Have a pic of the tait P25 radio? Will the tait radio do tetra also?

Stealing BW from the FCC..

I wonder were the acc. jack is?

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:05 pm

That's what i was going to ask, i don't see any jack for a remote speaker mic, etc.

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:44 pm

Can you copy a Motorola radio any closser without getting a law suit?
Orange buttons, concentric switches accessory connectors. Sure looks like a Motorola in Kenwood clothing.

123 · Post by **123** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:56 am

If your gonna pay Motorola royalities,might as well copy the radio look also eh?

giguchan · Post by **giguchan** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:33 am

nice radio!!!
niceclear pics too.. wish most of the sellers on ebay would take notice.. one more pic from a camera phone and i'll scream!
Gig

Splat · Post by **Splat** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:40 pm

Just a little FYI, Kenwood's latest series programming cables all have these almost-recessed contacts. Kinda like Jedi series cables, but less prone to breaking of those precious contacts. I also like Kenwood's right-side antenna positioning. I got so used to my Motorolas that all have the antenna on the right of the radio that when I switched to Kenwood it literally took a while to get used to the controls on the right side. Nothing major, but when you need to ramp up your volume quickly.... Still, I'm a Kenwood guy these days. They've been pretty lucky with first-run releases of their latest radios. I hope the success continues with this digital series.

n7maq · Post by **n7maq** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:23 pm

niceclear pics too.. wish most of the sellers on ebay would take notice.. one more pic from a camera phone and i'll scream!

Thanks, I was trying to do a good job with it. If i used my i860 for the pics then they would be fit for ebay.

Jim

giguchan · Post by **giguchan** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:34 pm

Hey,
glad you did...most people i have seen take the crappiest pics.. and then get mad at you when you ask about something that nots clear,I say that if you are going to to sell get a decent camera....I don't even own a digi camera yet.. but i'm done with my install.. I'm going to buy one just for the occasion,JUST because the people who answered all my stupid question about how to install a radio in my blazer deserve to see a clear pic- then they can comment on my install.... won't be very elaborate but functional
thanks for the great pics..
Gig

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:05 pm

Alan wrote:Can you copy a Motorola radio any closser without getting a law suit?
Orange buttons, concentric switches accessory connectors. Sure looks like a Motorola in Kenwood clothing.

Wait till you see Tait's mobile radios (I think they have a pic on the website.) They look so much like a Waris it aint funny.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:22 am

Someone commented about "paying royalties to Motorola." Not sure what they meant here, as the IMBE vocoder is made by DVSI. They beat out Motorola in 1991 for the P25 standard vocoder, as opposed to Motorola's VSELP approach.

Regarding Tait, I do NOT believe it is P25 compatible (I may be wrong). It uses a vocoder that is not compatible with IMBE, and it does NOT use FDMA modulation, so I don't see any way it can be P25 compatible. I'm going by the info on the FCC application, so maybe there is another version floating around?

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:27 pm

Alan wrote:Can you copy a Motorola radio any closser without getting a law suit?
Orange buttons, concentric switches accessory connectors. Sure looks like a Motorola in Kenwood clothing.

It does kind of look like a HT1250 got it on with one of the newer Icoms.
I not sure that having an orange button and an accessory connector means that is a copy of a Motorola, seems like a radios have that.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:50 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:Someone commented about "paying royalties to Motorola." Not sure what they meant here, as the IMBE vocoder is made by DVSI. They beat out Motorola in 1991 for the P25 standard vocoder, as opposed to Motorola's VSELP approach.

Regarding Tait, I do NOT believe it is P25 compatible (I may be wrong). It uses a vocoder that is not compatible with IMBE, and it does NOT use FDMA modulation, so I don't see any way it can be P25 compatible. I'm going by the info on the FCC application, so maybe there is another version floating around?

The FCC application doesn't say anything about FDMA or TDMA, and I can't see anything about about the vocoder on any of the FCC documentation. Whereabouts did you see this, exactly?

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:44 pm

mr.syntrx wrote:
ASTROMODAT wrote:Someone commented about "paying royalties to Motorola." Not sure what they meant here, as the IMBE vocoder is made by DVSI. They beat out Motorola in 1991 for the P25 standard vocoder, as opposed to Motorola's VSELP approach.

Regarding Tait, I do NOT believe it is P25 compatible (I may be wrong). It uses a vocoder that is not compatible with IMBE, and it does NOT use FDMA modulation, so I don't see any way it can be P25 compatible. I'm going by the info on the FCC application, so maybe there is another version floating around?
The FCC application doesn't say anything about FDMA or TDMA, and I can't see anything about about the vocoder on any of the FCC documentation. Whereabouts did you see this, exactly?

Don't worry. Looks like Larry's full o' :o again...

http://www.taitworld.com/main/index.cfm/4,1079,html

...considering the radio pictures is a TP9100, and that model number is specifically mentioned in their P25 compatibility press release.

Interestingly enough, they're supposed to release portable, mobile, and base radios, along with supporting infrastructure. Maybe Tait will give Mother a run for the money in the P25 infrastructure world...

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:56 pm

If their base station gear is half as good as the venerable T800 analogue stations, it'll be excellent.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:14 pm

Like I said, I'm not sure if the FCC application is for the same Tait radio model, but notice the modulation type (e.g., it's not FDMA) and the vocoder is not IMBE. This is the application that syntrx cited.

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms ... or_pdf=pdf

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:59 pm

This document is for the TP9100, which is the same radio model mentioned in their P25 press releases, and shown off at APCO conferences.

The vocoder is not mentioned, and isn't at all relevant to this document anyway, as this document is about radio performance measurements.

It also states that the digital voice modulation scheme is 4-level FSK, which is pretty much what C4FM (the standard P25 Phase 1 modulation scheme) is.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:06 pm

Check the emission type, and you can see that it does not agree with FDMA emission. You need to go through the entire 48 page document.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:19 pm

As to the tvsjr folktale that Tait is going to release an integrated P25 system, I'll believe that when I see them produce a P25 portable, mobile, repeater, base, DIU, IVD System, Data Controller (e.g., RNC-3000 Data Controller/CPCI), Secure Management Center, complete and OSMINE approved and compatible OA&S integrated end-to-end system, etc. I won't be holding my breath.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:51 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:Check the emission type, and you can see that it does not agree with FDMA emission. You need to go through the entire 48 page document.

I read the whole thing, then I quickly scanned through it again to reply to this post. There isn't anything in there at all related to multiplexing.

Anyhow, the digital emissions absolutely aren't TDMA. The emission designator is 8K10F1E, as it is for all P25 Phase I voice emissions from any radio, and the presence of that '1' very specifically precludes TDMA.

According to http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/emission.html, '1' represents:
A single channel containing quantized or digital information without the use of a modulating sub-carrier, excluding time-division multiplex.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:51 am

ASTROMODAT wrote:As to the tvsjr folktale that Tait is going to release an integrated P25 system, I'll believe that when I see them produce a P25 portable, mobile, repeater, base, DIU, IVD System, Data Controller (e.g., RNC-3000 Data Controller/CPCI), Secure Management Center, complete and OSMINE approved and compatible OA&S integrated end-to-end system, etc. I won't be holding my breath.

Ahh, Larry, God forbid that anyone besides your precious Motorola make P25 infrastructure hardware. It's not a folk tale... here's the quote from the press release (rtfa, n00b!)

The new 9000 series radios are the latest products from Tait that will deliver effective and reliable communications for the public safety industry at an affordable price.

These products include TP9100 portable radios, TM9155 mobile radio and TB9100 base station and network infrastructure, providing a complete P25 product range.

If you really are some big-time radio tech for the government as you seem to want everyone to believe, you should welcome these developments as way to drive Motorola's prices down and hopefully promote the development of new features that would be beneficial to everyone.

I like my Motorola gear too... but your rapid fanboy fanaticism takes things a little too far.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:46 am

I never said P25 uses TDMA modulation. I said FDMA. TDMA is going to be used in Phase II of P25, whereas Phase I is currently using FDMA, which the Tait radio appears to NOT use. This is why I am questioning the apparent disconnect between their FCC application and the idea that their radio is P25 compliant.

As to a Tait infrastructure, again, I will not hold my breath, especially when infrastructure means a complete end-to-end solution, including portable, mobile, base, repeater, DIUs, IVD, data controllers, integrated OA&M systems (with detailed M&P's), secure centers, etc. Motorola has had all of this, and more, in place for decades.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:15 pm

I never claimed you said they used TDMA, nor did I claim they used TDMA. If it ain't FDMA (which I guarantee it is, and there is no evidence at all in that document to suggest that it aint), and it ain't TDMA, what is it?

ASTROMODAT wrote:Check the emission type, and you can see that it does not agree with FDMA emission

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:14 pm

They have designated it with a numerical indicator, per their application, which does not appear to jive with FDMA.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:50 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:They have designated it with a numerical indicator, per their application, which does not appear to jive with FDMA.

Yawn. Page 6: 8K10F1E. Phase I APCO 25 digital voice, according to APCO. 8K10F7E, the same channel specs as F1E, but carrying multiple transmissions (sounds like Phase II APCO 25 TDMA to me). 12.5KHz channel.
Page 7: 10K0F1E. 25 KHz channel.

Sorta looks like Tait is covering their bases by certifying this radio to operate in Phase 1 and Phase 2 P25 modes.[/quote]

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:02 pm

That's exactly my point: their numbers in the FCC filing do NOT align with FDMA modulation, which is the ONLY modulation scheme approved and compatible with P25 Phase I. Phase II is a long, long ways off, and the vocoder for Phase II has not even been finalized yet. It makes no sense to file for Phase II of P25 at this particular time, since the vocoder for Phase II is not even out of the APCO P25 standards committee. As Dr. Henry Lee would say, "Sumsing wong here---sumsing varey, varey wong here."

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:21 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:That's exactly my point: their numbers in the FCC filing do NOT align with FDMA modulation, which is the ONLY modulation scheme approved and compatible with P25 Phase I. Phase II is a long, long ways off, and the vocoder for Phase II has not even been finalized yet. It makes no sense to file for Phase II of P25 at this particular time, since the vocoder for Phase II is not even out of the APCO P25 standards committee. As Dr. Henry Lee would say, "Sumsing wong here---sumsing varey, varey wong here."

OK Larry... I want you to go take your meds, put your spectacles on, and read very carefully. OK?

Go look at the application to the FCC. Read Pages 6-8. You'll see TWO emissions designators in each section. I'll even distill it to make it easier for you.

Digital Voice/Data - 4 Level FSK - 12.5KHz channel
8K10F1E AND 8K10F7E. (Page 6)

Digital Voice - 4 Level FSK - 25KHz channel
10K0F1E AND 10K0F7E. (Page 7)

Digital Voice Encryption - 4 Level FSK - 12.5KHz channel
8K10F1E

Digital Voice Encryption - 4 Level FSK - 25KHz channel
10K0F1E

Now, go check what APCO International lists for emissions designations for THEIR DIGITAL VOICE STANDARD:
http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/emission.html
Note that they list 8K10F1E as being the emissions designator for Phase I APCO PROJECT 25.

Motorola even lists 8K10F1E as an emissions type for the XTS5000.

If you were building a radio, considering that the FCC is concerned with emissions type, and knowing that Phase II requires TDMA, wouldn't you go ahead and build the RF deck to handle TDMA transmissions (hence the *F7E emissions designators)? Sounds like very smart business to me (future-proofing and all).

Whenever APCO finally decides on the vocoder/etc. for Phase 2, all you'd have to do would be to drop the vocoder software or chip into your device (depending on how you did the licensing from DVSI or whomever), and the RF deck would already by type-accepted to handle the TDMA transmissions.

An even smarter company would build the firmware in flash, so your already-sold units could flash up to Phase 2 compatibility in the field.

Tait's engineers aren't stupid. They've been around for quite awhile, and have a large user base, although they aren't as prevalent in the US as they are elsewhere. And I think they have the talent and money to give Motorola a run in the P25 infrastructure market. If you were gearing up to give Motorola a run, wouldn't it make sense from a business point of view to build your hardware to handle Phase 1 natively and Phase 2 with a mere software upgrade? I haven't checked all of their infrastructure gear, but the XTS5000 and XTL5000 certainly don't support (nor are type accepted) for TDMA/Phase 2 operations. Sounds like a good way to get for Tait to get a leg up on the Big M.

These are all simple concepts, provable with a bit of minor research, all of which has already been done for you in this thread. What part of this don't you get?

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:51 pm

As you can see, Tait is NOT using the IMBE vocoder, according to their own application, and their modulation scheme is not FDMA. Don't hold your breath for the DHS to buy any of these things.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:08 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:As you can see, Tait is NOT using the IMBE vocoder,

You have absolutely no evidence at all of this "fact". The vocoder is not a design aspect relevant to to their application in any way. Tait made no mention whatsoever, direct or indirect, of the vocoder in this application, because the FCC couldn't care less about it. The FCC is only interested in the RF performance of the radio, which includes modulation schemes and whether it 's TDMA or not. They have no need to care about vocoders.

Tait did, however, mention the modulation schemes the radio supports, one of which being is the APCO Project 25 Phase I CAI modulation scheme. The modulation scheme has absolutely nothing to do with the vocoder. The modulation scheme merely deals with the task of getting the data from point A to point B, without any consideration as to the meaning of the data. The vocoder (+ codec) handles turning that data back into voice, without at all caring about how it got the data.

according to their own application, and their modulation scheme is not FDMA.

Fraid not.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:17 pm

Without an IMBE vocoder, it can NOT be considered to be P25 compliant, just like an ASTRO radio with a VSELP vocoder is certainly not P25 compliant. Capiche?

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:23 pm

And you have no basis at all on which to suspect that they aren't using IMBE. The fact that their press releases say that this thing is P25 complaint suggests that they are using IMBE.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:34 pm

Check their specs re: no IMBE.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:48 pm

What specs? There's nothing in the users manual, the FCC test documentation or their website saying they're not using IMBE.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:04 pm

mr.syntrx wrote:And you have no basis at all on which to suspect that they aren't using IMBE. The fact that their press releases say that this thing is P25 complaint suggests that they are using IMBE.

Syntrx-

Don't worry about Larry. Don't forget you're arguing with Mr. Secret Agent Man, who supposedly makes such massive decisions about P25 acquisitions for the US government while cruising around in his SL600 (equipped with XTVA, no less). Never mind that he can't tell you anything about P25 hardware/infrastructure that isn't printed in product brochures and available on the Intarweb and never offers any pictures, comments, or general knowledge that would support his claims.

The Tait radios are claimed to be P25 compatible, and will most likely use the IMBE vocoder for Phase 1 support. You're very correct that the FCC doesn't give a damn about the vocoder - they're concerned with RF emissions, not the content of the bitstream.

I can't wait for the products to roll out, and hope they give Mother a run for the money in the P25 world.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:13 pm

Tait "will most likely use the IMBE vocoder for Phase 1 support?" Get a grip, without IMBE, a radio is absolutely not P25 Phase I compatible.