Say I have an xts3000 with early firmware and an encryption module that works just fine. The radio had old firmware Host 5/DSP 6 and I was thinking about sending it in for a firmware boost.
Does this mean I will have to get a new encryption module? Is there something the shop or depot can do to change the revision on the module to make it compatable with the new firmware?
Thanks,
Mike
EMC and Firmware Upgrade Compatability
Moderator: Queue Moderator
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what is your EMC version?
d
d
BRAVO MIKE JULIET ALPHA
"You can do whatever you want, there are just consequences..."
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Mike,
For what it's worth, the Astro Saber I bought from you last week (Host 5/DSP 6) works just fine with the EMC 3.46 OFB/XL module I installed in it.
My other Astro Saber had Host 7/DSP 8 in it, and worked fine in PID/ASN mode with an EMC 2.12 OFB/XL module. CKR key management would not work with EMC 2.12, though. See my post in the sticky encryption thread in this fourm.
I haven't tried CKR with the EMC 3.46 module yet, but I bet it would work.
I've never heard of the encryption module firmware being something you could update without replacing the module.
Also, I updated the firmware in my 7/8 Astro Saber to very new 7/8 a few months ago, and the EMC 2.12 still works fine. After that firmware update, the radio now shows "KG3 NONE" during the service sequence, so apparently the newest 7/8 firmware is capable being used with a triple algorithim module. With the previous verson of 7/8, it would just show "KG1 DES-XL" and "KG2 DES-OFB".
But the bottom line is that at least a EMC 2.12 module works fine in very new Host 7 / DSP 8 (as long as you don't need CKR key managment).
For what it's worth, the Astro Saber I bought from you last week (Host 5/DSP 6) works just fine with the EMC 3.46 OFB/XL module I installed in it.
My other Astro Saber had Host 7/DSP 8 in it, and worked fine in PID/ASN mode with an EMC 2.12 OFB/XL module. CKR key management would not work with EMC 2.12, though. See my post in the sticky encryption thread in this fourm.
I haven't tried CKR with the EMC 3.46 module yet, but I bet it would work.
I've never heard of the encryption module firmware being something you could update without replacing the module.
Also, I updated the firmware in my 7/8 Astro Saber to very new 7/8 a few months ago, and the EMC 2.12 still works fine. After that firmware update, the radio now shows "KG3 NONE" during the service sequence, so apparently the newest 7/8 firmware is capable being used with a triple algorithim module. With the previous verson of 7/8, it would just show "KG1 DES-XL" and "KG2 DES-OFB".
But the bottom line is that at least a EMC 2.12 module works fine in very new Host 7 / DSP 8 (as long as you don't need CKR key managment).
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CTAMontrose
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I bet you had CKR key management enabled in the radio's codeplug...
If you don't need to use a CKR KVL or an OTAR system, you should be able to turn CKR key management off in the radio's codeplug, and your EMC 2.12 module should work fine in that radio. That "EMC TOO OLD" was the exact error I got when I tried to use CKR key management with my EMC 2.12 module.
If you don't need to use a CKR KVL or an OTAR system, you should be able to turn CKR key management off in the radio's codeplug, and your EMC 2.12 module should work fine in that radio. That "EMC TOO OLD" was the exact error I got when I tried to use CKR key management with my EMC 2.12 module.
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CTAMontrose
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've never heard of the encryption module firmware being something you could update without replacing the module.
this is the purpose of the "UCM" - it allows the module to be flash upgraded as well... no more hardware changes, the module can be flashed with new firmware just like a host/dsp bump.
i do NOT know if you can add algorithms to an existing UCM though....
i have an XTS w/ host 7/dsp 8 as well, and using OFB EMC 2.12
doug
BRAVO MIKE JULIET ALPHA
"You can do whatever you want, there are just consequences..."
IF SOMEONE PM'S YOU - HAVE THE COURTESY TO REPLY.
"You can do whatever you want, there are just consequences..."
IF SOMEONE PM'S YOU - HAVE THE COURTESY TO REPLY.
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CTAMontrose
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if CKR was indeed enabled, would that still cause all the Keygroups to list as NONE, in the service menu?515 wrote:I bet you had CKR key management enabled in the radio's codeplug...
If you don't need to use a CKR KVL or an OTAR system, you should be able to turn CKR key management off in the radio's codeplug, and your EMC 2.12 module should work fine in that radio. That "EMC TOO OLD" was the exact error I got when I tried to use CKR key management with my EMC 2.12 module.
I don't remember exactly, but I think my radio showed all three "KG# NONE" when I tried to use the non-supported CKR mode. Encryption definitely wasn't functional in that case...
Doug's comment about the UCM clears up something for me, though. It all makes sense now...
I always wondered why you had to order the UCM hardware and software/algorithims separately on a new radio order (separate line items). Apparently the UCM's use the same hardware regardless of algorithims installed/enabled on it... Good to know.
Doug's comment about the UCM clears up something for me, though. It all makes sense now...
I always wondered why you had to order the UCM hardware and software/algorithims separately on a new radio order (separate line items). Apparently the UCM's use the same hardware regardless of algorithims installed/enabled on it... Good to know.
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CTAMontrose
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ASTROMODAT
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Doug, you can change the flavor of a UCM module (e.g., add a new encryption type) with the KVL 3000 Plus, but you have to buy the $750 per blow UCM encryption firmware, and you can't ever go back in a UCM limited to a single encryption type, unless you re-purchase the firmware.
For instance, let's say you have a single encryption type UCM currently equipped with DES-OFB, and you want to upgrade to AES. Fine, buy the firmware from Motorola Sales, and blow it into the UCM via your KVL-3000 Plus, and presto chango, the UCM is now AES capable. But, if you ever wanted to go back to DES-OFB for some reason, you'd have to re-buy the DES-OFB UCM encryption firmware from Sales for another $750, even though your UCM module was originally equipped with DES-OFB. In effect, you can't ever go back, at least not without paying for it all over again. Keep in mind that if you have a multi format UCM, you can hold multiple encryption tyypes, so this won't be a problem, until you exceed the number of encryption types to where one of them has got to go to make room for a new type.
That's why you have to be careful when ordering a radio so you can buy the multi encryption option, or not. I think it's $330 for multi encryption capability (don't confuse this with multikey option!), but that does not include the actual algorithm. I'm not sure if you can uplift a UCM that is limited to a single encryption type to a multi encryption type via firmware. Perhaps someone can answer this? Also, I'm not sure if the UCM card used in the DIU-3000 has different upgrade capabilities in this regards as opposed to the UCMs in the XTL and XTS radios. Our DIU-3000's all have twin encryption (DES-OFB and AES), but we purchased them this way when we bought them new.
For instance, let's say you have a single encryption type UCM currently equipped with DES-OFB, and you want to upgrade to AES. Fine, buy the firmware from Motorola Sales, and blow it into the UCM via your KVL-3000 Plus, and presto chango, the UCM is now AES capable. But, if you ever wanted to go back to DES-OFB for some reason, you'd have to re-buy the DES-OFB UCM encryption firmware from Sales for another $750, even though your UCM module was originally equipped with DES-OFB. In effect, you can't ever go back, at least not without paying for it all over again. Keep in mind that if you have a multi format UCM, you can hold multiple encryption tyypes, so this won't be a problem, until you exceed the number of encryption types to where one of them has got to go to make room for a new type.
That's why you have to be careful when ordering a radio so you can buy the multi encryption option, or not. I think it's $330 for multi encryption capability (don't confuse this with multikey option!), but that does not include the actual algorithm. I'm not sure if you can uplift a UCM that is limited to a single encryption type to a multi encryption type via firmware. Perhaps someone can answer this? Also, I'm not sure if the UCM card used in the DIU-3000 has different upgrade capabilities in this regards as opposed to the UCMs in the XTL and XTS radios. Our DIU-3000's all have twin encryption (DES-OFB and AES), but we purchased them this way when we bought them new.
How do you know if the secure module in a radio is a UCM, or the older non-upgradeable type?
Since it looks like one can purchase an AES/DES-OFB/DES-XL/DES combo UCM (option G851) for the Astro Spectra, has anyone ever tried installing one in an Astro Saber and successfully using AES? Surely you'd need new firmware in the radio for it to work, but I bet it's possible since you could get that same algorithim combo for the XTS3000 (option Q15).
I take it you can't order a UCM (without the radio) through Parts & Aftermarket, since it's essentially a made-to-order hardware/software combo (like the Astro radios themselves), so you'd have to go through a Moto sales rep... Even then, I'm not sure if you can order a UCM without a radio.
Since it looks like one can purchase an AES/DES-OFB/DES-XL/DES combo UCM (option G851) for the Astro Spectra, has anyone ever tried installing one in an Astro Saber and successfully using AES? Surely you'd need new firmware in the radio for it to work, but I bet it's possible since you could get that same algorithim combo for the XTS3000 (option Q15).
I take it you can't order a UCM (without the radio) through Parts & Aftermarket, since it's essentially a made-to-order hardware/software combo (like the Astro radios themselves), so you'd have to go through a Moto sales rep... Even then, I'm not sure if you can order a UCM without a radio.
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ASTROMODAT
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Depends on the "radio" type. For instance, you must order the UCM for the DIU via Sales only. It can hold up to 2 algorithms. The DIU UCM hardware module is $250, plus another $50 for its "standard" software, plus another $750 for each encryption type. Total cost for one encryption in the UCM is $1,050. Unfortunately, most DIU's will need to alslo be uplifted to the latest firmware to be compatible with the UCM, which nicks you for another $900 for the two firmware EEPROMs.
Regarding the XTS-5000, you can order these UCM's from Parts. DES/DES-XL/DES-OFB UCM is NNTN-4006 and costs $749.
Same thing for the XTL-5000. You can order the UCM from Parts. DES/DES-XL/DES-OFB UCM is NNTN-4941 and costs $749.
For the ASTRO Spectra, the number is HLN-1441. Same price as above.
In all cases (except the DIU), you'll need the Multi Key option to actually use more than one encryption type ($330).
Regarding the XTS-5000, you can order these UCM's from Parts. DES/DES-XL/DES-OFB UCM is NNTN-4006 and costs $749.
Same thing for the XTL-5000. You can order the UCM from Parts. DES/DES-XL/DES-OFB UCM is NNTN-4941 and costs $749.
For the ASTRO Spectra, the number is HLN-1441. Same price as above.
In all cases (except the DIU), you'll need the Multi Key option to actually use more than one encryption type ($330).