I'm posting this from out of town, away from our shop and resources. Hope to get back soon but until then......
We got roped into one of these deals where MOTO salesman sells equipment to agency, then calls us to install sight unseen. Promised that "everything you need is there". The customer received two VHF Quantars (main repeaters) w/ two UHF Quantars to be used as links, plus an AstroTac 3000 comparator. One repeater is at a site 6 miles from main base. The other site is 40 miles from main base. Agency also has offices in various places and distances from each tower, but most are close to the 6 mile tower. I have never worked on or been involved with a system that uses a comparator, but I think I have a basic idea what it does. My understanding of a comparator/voter is- multiple receive sites tied to a central transmitter site via phone lines/link/whatever. Comparator/voter determines best receive signal and uses it. Without having cracked open any manuals, the obvious questions I have-
Is there not supposed to be some sort of cabling to link the VHF to the UHF? There are apparently none. Or does it all link up by the wireline I/O?
Which site gets the comparator?
I'm hoping to get to read the manual on the comparator tomorrow, but my initial thoughts are they did not get everything they needed to do whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. Help?
Quantar VHF repeaters, UHF links, w/ AstroTac3000 Comparator
Moderator: Queue Moderator
Quantar VHF repeaters, UHF links, w/ AstroTac3000 Comparator
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If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
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If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
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Dan562
- Posts: 533
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:30 pm
- What radios do you own?: Kenwood, Yaesu, ICOM, Motorola
System Configuration
Hello Equinox,
I’m not a bit surprised that you didn’t receive a System Diagram with this USFMG equipment sale. The /\/\ account representative and his /\/\ Area System Engineer should have supplied this basic information to your shop and the personnel implementing the equipment.
Basically you’ve got an understanding how the Voting comparator works by comparing two or more recovered receive signals and then feeding the best signal to Transmitters for over-the-air transmission and to a remote Dispatch Console via a T1 Telco circuit.
Generally the equipment should provide a Factory Order document breaking out all of the shipped line items including cable kits. Speaking of cable kits, the ATAC3000 should automatically include RJ45 to RJ45 cables for interfacing between boxes. The QTAR stations might have RJ45 to RJ45 cables for interfacing between equipment.
I’m making an assumption here, for the associated equipment will be placed at the Sixth mile tower site, I’ll call this Site A and the Forty mile tower site, Site B. There’s one item that I won’t assume and this is whether there’s Dispatch Console connected or not. This could be configured similar to a non – wireline system.
At Site A there should be a VHF Quantar Repeater, a UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station and the AstroTac3000 comparator. The VHF Quantar Receiver’s Wire Line (WL) output cabling should connect between the AstroTac3000 Channel # 1 Input module and the Transmitter’s Input WL should interface between the AstroTac3000 Output WL # 1. The UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station Receiver’s output WL should interface between the AstroTac3000 Channel # 2 Input module and the UHF transmitter’s Input WL should interface between the AstroTac3000 Output WL # 2.
At site B there should be a VHF Quantar Repeater and a UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station. The WL configuration should be much simpler since there are only two stations out there. In the front of the two individual stations, there’s a pair of RJ45 Jacks, I don’t remember exactly how they’re labeled but one is for (Remote) Tx Keying and the second is for the station’s Rx recovered signaling. You will need a RJ45 to RJ45 cable and insert one of the RJ45 Plugs into the Rx signal port on the VHF Quantar Repeater and on the opposite end plugging the RJ45 Tx port on the UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station. Take a second RJ45 to RJ45 cable and insert the RJ45 Plug’s one end into the Tx signal port on the VHF Quantar Repeater and on the opposite end plugging the RJ45 Rx port on the UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station. All of these connection Ports are Digital WL Signaling.
Hopefully the /\/\ USFMG account representative was smart enough to order either 46” or 60” cabinets so the AstroTac3000 could be mounted into one of the same cabinets with the VHF and UHF Quantar Stations.
Dan
I’m not a bit surprised that you didn’t receive a System Diagram with this USFMG equipment sale. The /\/\ account representative and his /\/\ Area System Engineer should have supplied this basic information to your shop and the personnel implementing the equipment.
Basically you’ve got an understanding how the Voting comparator works by comparing two or more recovered receive signals and then feeding the best signal to Transmitters for over-the-air transmission and to a remote Dispatch Console via a T1 Telco circuit.
Generally the equipment should provide a Factory Order document breaking out all of the shipped line items including cable kits. Speaking of cable kits, the ATAC3000 should automatically include RJ45 to RJ45 cables for interfacing between boxes. The QTAR stations might have RJ45 to RJ45 cables for interfacing between equipment.
I’m making an assumption here, for the associated equipment will be placed at the Sixth mile tower site, I’ll call this Site A and the Forty mile tower site, Site B. There’s one item that I won’t assume and this is whether there’s Dispatch Console connected or not. This could be configured similar to a non – wireline system.
At Site A there should be a VHF Quantar Repeater, a UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station and the AstroTac3000 comparator. The VHF Quantar Receiver’s Wire Line (WL) output cabling should connect between the AstroTac3000 Channel # 1 Input module and the Transmitter’s Input WL should interface between the AstroTac3000 Output WL # 1. The UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station Receiver’s output WL should interface between the AstroTac3000 Channel # 2 Input module and the UHF transmitter’s Input WL should interface between the AstroTac3000 Output WL # 2.
At site B there should be a VHF Quantar Repeater and a UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station. The WL configuration should be much simpler since there are only two stations out there. In the front of the two individual stations, there’s a pair of RJ45 Jacks, I don’t remember exactly how they’re labeled but one is for (Remote) Tx Keying and the second is for the station’s Rx recovered signaling. You will need a RJ45 to RJ45 cable and insert one of the RJ45 Plugs into the Rx signal port on the VHF Quantar Repeater and on the opposite end plugging the RJ45 Tx port on the UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station. Take a second RJ45 to RJ45 cable and insert the RJ45 Plug’s one end into the Tx signal port on the VHF Quantar Repeater and on the opposite end plugging the RJ45 Rx port on the UHF Quantar Full Duplex Base Station. All of these connection Ports are Digital WL Signaling.
Hopefully the /\/\ USFMG account representative was smart enough to order either 46” or 60” cabinets so the AstroTac3000 could be mounted into one of the same cabinets with the VHF and UHF Quantar Stations.
Dan
Dan,
Appreciate the help very much. Now I'm wondering about parameters that may/may not have to be programmed. I noticed in the wireline parameters in the quantars, there is a place to enable comparator, and to select type. Odd thing is, the VHF unit lists astro-tac as one option, while the UHF Q-tar does not. ???? I have a feeling I'll be calling Motorola. Good news is MOTO salesman did finally send a diagram of which repeater and various control stations go where, so that's a start.
Appreciate the help very much. Now I'm wondering about parameters that may/may not have to be programmed. I noticed in the wireline parameters in the quantars, there is a place to enable comparator, and to select type. Odd thing is, the VHF unit lists astro-tac as one option, while the UHF Q-tar does not. ???? I have a feeling I'll be calling Motorola. Good news is MOTO salesman did finally send a diagram of which repeater and various control stations go where, so that's a start.
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If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
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.
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If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
I appreciate the info you did provide Dan.
We called the MOTO salesman last week, hoping to find out why we didn't get certain cables (such as new duplexer to repeater cables, RJ45 cables to hook up the MC3000 remotes, etc.- remember, we were told we had to provide nothing but tools). Also asked if the person who engineered the system could talk us through some questions, or just flat out tell me step by step what to do since in my 13 years I've never dealt with a comparator or even been involved in a system that used one. As of 5PM today, no call back.
I'm going back down tomorrow to install the 7 consolette control stations they bought (scattered around 5 locations miles apart from each other), and will likely just put the VHF repeaters online and leave the other stuff there to be hooked up later, unless I find myself with a lot of spare time after I install the 7 consolettes (highly unlikely). VACATION NEXT WEEK!
We called the MOTO salesman last week, hoping to find out why we didn't get certain cables (such as new duplexer to repeater cables, RJ45 cables to hook up the MC3000 remotes, etc.- remember, we were told we had to provide nothing but tools). Also asked if the person who engineered the system could talk us through some questions, or just flat out tell me step by step what to do since in my 13 years I've never dealt with a comparator or even been involved in a system that used one. As of 5PM today, no call back.
I'm going back down tomorrow to install the 7 consolette control stations they bought (scattered around 5 locations miles apart from each other), and will likely just put the VHF repeaters online and leave the other stuff there to be hooked up later, unless I find myself with a lot of spare time after I install the 7 consolettes (highly unlikely). VACATION NEXT WEEK!.
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If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
.
.
.
If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
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Dan562
- Posts: 533
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:30 pm
- What radios do you own?: Kenwood, Yaesu, ICOM, Motorola
Hello Equinox,
I dug around and located Kit number for the RJ45 to RJ45 premade 8 conductor cables and here it is:
CKN6843A I/O Cables Quantar
3083938X02 CBL W/MOD PLUG 8COND 1220MM
If my memory derves me correctly, I believe there are 6 cables in this kit. For the life of me I can not remember the factory option / kit number for the external duplexers coaxial cables but they do have an orderable option that the USFMG /\/\ Account Representative should have included on the factory order.
I'm not surprised the /\/\ USFMG Account Representative has not supplied the Standard Instruction Manuals with this F.O. as they think everything happens by Osmosis out on a customer's site and from what you have indicated, your /\/\ USFMG Account Representative is not any better. I've never programmed an Astro Tac Comparator to be able to assist you on the parameters. I'm not sure if the ATAC 3000 comparator has multiple transmitter ports available for the system configuration you're involved on.
That /\/\ USFMG Account Representative has a /\/\ USFMG Area System Engineer (ASE) that he should be interfacing with you for the design parameters that you need to speak with so you can program the boxes. I certainly do understand your frustrations with the /\/\ USFMG Account Representative and not knowing the boxes .... Voting Comparator and not getting /\/\'s help you need.
Dan
I dug around and located Kit number for the RJ45 to RJ45 premade 8 conductor cables and here it is:
CKN6843A I/O Cables Quantar
3083938X02 CBL W/MOD PLUG 8COND 1220MM
If my memory derves me correctly, I believe there are 6 cables in this kit. For the life of me I can not remember the factory option / kit number for the external duplexers coaxial cables but they do have an orderable option that the USFMG /\/\ Account Representative should have included on the factory order.
I'm not surprised the /\/\ USFMG Account Representative has not supplied the Standard Instruction Manuals with this F.O. as they think everything happens by Osmosis out on a customer's site and from what you have indicated, your /\/\ USFMG Account Representative is not any better. I've never programmed an Astro Tac Comparator to be able to assist you on the parameters. I'm not sure if the ATAC 3000 comparator has multiple transmitter ports available for the system configuration you're involved on.
That /\/\ USFMG Account Representative has a /\/\ USFMG Area System Engineer (ASE) that he should be interfacing with you for the design parameters that you need to speak with so you can program the boxes. I certainly do understand your frustrations with the /\/\ USFMG Account Representative and not knowing the boxes .... Voting Comparator and not getting /\/\'s help you need.
Dan
Thought I'd update this saga....
MOTO salesman wound up having a MOTO FTR (Andy H, great guy BTW) come out to slam dunk this deal. When he arrived, he scratched his head much like I did when I first started working on the thing. After some calls to a couple of people, the picture became more clear. Come to find out, the system needs to have a plug for both UHF Qtar links so they will stay keyed 24/7. This was accomplished via the 25 pair Telco connector on the back, something that NOBODY, even the other FTR that I had consulted with, had told anybody about. Nor had they supplied the plugs, or even material to make up plugs. Fortunately we were able to find two old cables and cut their ends off to make up the jumper plugs. So, after getting the system up and running, we discover (no surprise) that there is massive overlap between the two TX sites, and so they are in the process of getting a new TX freq for the secondary repeater site.
Can't wait til I go to do the next one. NOT.
Again, thank you Dan for all the help.
MOTO salesman wound up having a MOTO FTR (Andy H, great guy BTW) come out to slam dunk this deal. When he arrived, he scratched his head much like I did when I first started working on the thing. After some calls to a couple of people, the picture became more clear. Come to find out, the system needs to have a plug for both UHF Qtar links so they will stay keyed 24/7. This was accomplished via the 25 pair Telco connector on the back, something that NOBODY, even the other FTR that I had consulted with, had told anybody about. Nor had they supplied the plugs, or even material to make up plugs. Fortunately we were able to find two old cables and cut their ends off to make up the jumper plugs. So, after getting the system up and running, we discover (no surprise) that there is massive overlap between the two TX sites, and so they are in the process of getting a new TX freq for the secondary repeater site.
Can't wait til I go to do the next one. NOT.
Again, thank you Dan for all the help.
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If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
.
.
.
If at first you don't succeed,.....then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
Your Welcome 
AH
[quote="Equinox"]Thought I'd update this saga....
MOTO salesman wound up having a MOTO FTR (Andy H, great guy BTW) come out to slam dunk this deal. When he arrived, he scratched his head much like I did when I first started working on the thing. After some calls to a couple of people, the picture became more clear.
AH
[quote="Equinox"]Thought I'd update this saga....
MOTO salesman wound up having a MOTO FTR (Andy H, great guy BTW) come out to slam dunk this deal. When he arrived, he scratched his head much like I did when I first started working on the thing. After some calls to a couple of people, the picture became more clear.