hello there can anybody help me find cor or cos on my syntorx 9000
t73vbj7504ak they show j6-7 channel activity for cor can somebody simplify this alittle where is this j6-7
syntor x 9000 cor cos
Moderator: Queue Moderator
I've been all over Mike's site, time and time again, and never found any mention of finding Cor/Cos from the X9000. So if someone has found it on his site please show me exactly where.
Otherwise, i have figured this out on the Syntor X and created an article for the Repeater Builders Technical Information Page, but they don't appear to have the article up yet. If you want a look at the article i can email it in .pdf format.
However, i haven't put anymore time into finding a good source on the X9000. Since they have different personality boards its not the same. The reason i want to do this is to be able to have a on demand crossband repeater between my two X9000's in the mobile. Then i could just select a frequency on the UHF and VHF and go. I already worked out most of the details for building a controller to do this, but i got tied up on other projects and haven't built anything further.
Otherwise, i have figured this out on the Syntor X and created an article for the Repeater Builders Technical Information Page, but they don't appear to have the article up yet. If you want a look at the article i can email it in .pdf format.
However, i haven't put anymore time into finding a good source on the X9000. Since they have different personality boards its not the same. The reason i want to do this is to be able to have a on demand crossband repeater between my two X9000's in the mobile. Then i could just select a frequency on the UHF and VHF and go. I already worked out most of the details for building a controller to do this, but i got tied up on other projects and haven't built anything further.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
On the Syntor X9000 J1 pin 21 on the main connector (on the front of the radio drawer) has the Channel Activity signal. This signal comes directly from the squelch hybrid through a transistor buffer circuit and simply indicates the squelch is open. It is not aware of any Rx PL or DPL setting.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... #x9krdpins
The only signal that is conditioned by the Rx PL or DPL setting, is the audio mute line inside the radio (U500 microprocessor pin 25). There is no dedicated COS signal provided. I strongly suspect there is a COS command in the Systems 9000 serial data stream because of the way the Vehicle Repeater System works. You can also look at the U504 latch Rx Audio Flat and Rx Audio Deemp control lines too see if they are toggled for the squelch or not.
You can use Detected Audio (no deemphasis or bandwidth filtering) or Filtered Audio (deemphasized and bandwidth filtered) for your repeater audio.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/images/x9kaudioconf.gif
If you do not need to decode any PL or DPL then you are set with Channel Activity.
If you need Rx PL or DPL then you can use logic circuits to AND Channel Activity with Audio Mute (Audio Mute is not strictly tied to the squelch, as the radio may send error tones and such). This will get a COS that only fires when the Rx PL or DPL is correct.
About the Syntor X, if I remember correctly, the radio drawer internal Priority Sample Mute was the squelch open signal that took Rx PL and DPL into account.
BTW, you may need a repeater controller to add in a squelch tail delay for some of these COS signals.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... #x9krdpins
The only signal that is conditioned by the Rx PL or DPL setting, is the audio mute line inside the radio (U500 microprocessor pin 25). There is no dedicated COS signal provided. I strongly suspect there is a COS command in the Systems 9000 serial data stream because of the way the Vehicle Repeater System works. You can also look at the U504 latch Rx Audio Flat and Rx Audio Deemp control lines too see if they are toggled for the squelch or not.
You can use Detected Audio (no deemphasis or bandwidth filtering) or Filtered Audio (deemphasized and bandwidth filtered) for your repeater audio.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/images/x9kaudioconf.gif
If you do not need to decode any PL or DPL then you are set with Channel Activity.
If you need Rx PL or DPL then you can use logic circuits to AND Channel Activity with Audio Mute (Audio Mute is not strictly tied to the squelch, as the radio may send error tones and such). This will get a COS that only fires when the Rx PL or DPL is correct.
About the Syntor X, if I remember correctly, the radio drawer internal Priority Sample Mute was the squelch open signal that took Rx PL and DPL into account.
BTW, you may need a repeater controller to add in a squelch tail delay for some of these COS signals.
Last edited by Mike B on Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the Syntor X I use U2 pin 15, this goes to about 5v when a signal is present.
It works for both PL and CSQ, if the mode in use has a PL tone programmed on receive it will only go high when receiving the PL. But, if you switch to a mode without a PL programmed it will still work as long as you wire in a squelch control, or use the control head.
I setup a couple X's this way with a NHRC controller, works great. But you do have to buffer it for some controllers.
I will have to try J1 pin 21 and see what results i get. Should make it easy to build a crossband CSQ setup. Which is really what i wanted anyway.
Which line do you suggest using for the repeated transmit audio? I was thinking of using Pin 3, the option TX Audio line. The only other question i have, is audio decoupling between the radios necessary, or could the option rx audio on pin 33 be directly connected to pin 3 of the other radio?
Of course what i plan on doing is having a switching setup that allows me to disconnect the audio and PTT lines when i want the crossband disabled. Otherwise i could see one radio transmitting and then the other receives and you get both audio sources being transmitted at once, the mic of the transmitting radio and the option rx audio from the other.
And i would assume that in normal operation that PTT is done through a bus command since the PTT line doesn't go from the radio to the control head?
It works for both PL and CSQ, if the mode in use has a PL tone programmed on receive it will only go high when receiving the PL. But, if you switch to a mode without a PL programmed it will still work as long as you wire in a squelch control, or use the control head.
I setup a couple X's this way with a NHRC controller, works great. But you do have to buffer it for some controllers.
I will have to try J1 pin 21 and see what results i get. Should make it easy to build a crossband CSQ setup. Which is really what i wanted anyway.
Which line do you suggest using for the repeated transmit audio? I was thinking of using Pin 3, the option TX Audio line. The only other question i have, is audio decoupling between the radios necessary, or could the option rx audio on pin 33 be directly connected to pin 3 of the other radio?
Of course what i plan on doing is having a switching setup that allows me to disconnect the audio and PTT lines when i want the crossband disabled. Otherwise i could see one radio transmitting and then the other receives and you get both audio sources being transmitted at once, the mic of the transmitting radio and the option rx audio from the other.
And i would assume that in normal operation that PTT is done through a bus command since the PTT line doesn't go from the radio to the control head?
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"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
The problem with the Syntor X 9000 is getting it to switch the audio path for you. Tx Option audio should not be open for normal Tx operation. The commands that drive the audio switching are on the Systems 9000 serial data communications bus. This Option Tx path is open for the VRS and Securenet Tx, but they both have Systems 9000 microprocessors to talk to the radio drawer too get the audio path switched.
The PAC-RT even uses the Microphone input for Tx audio, not the Tx Option Audio. PAC-RT uses J1 pin 1 PTT on the radio drawer.
Yes the X9000 control head sends Systems 9000 serial data commands to control the radio drawer PTT.
The Rx Option Audio path is an input to the Syntor X 9000 audio amplifier. It ends up going to the radio drawer speaker. It also requires a Systems 9000 command to open this audio path and un-mute the radio drawer audio amplifier.
Detected Audio or Filtered audio are the two choices for Rx audio sources.
The PAC-RT even uses the Microphone input for Tx audio, not the Tx Option Audio. PAC-RT uses J1 pin 1 PTT on the radio drawer.
Yes the X9000 control head sends Systems 9000 serial data commands to control the radio drawer PTT.
The Rx Option Audio path is an input to the Syntor X 9000 audio amplifier. It ends up going to the radio drawer speaker. It also requires a Systems 9000 command to open this audio path and un-mute the radio drawer audio amplifier.
Detected Audio or Filtered audio are the two choices for Rx audio sources.
Correct, pin 1 PTT is grounded to activate it. It has its own transistor buffer circuit with a 10k resistor in series and a 10k resistor pulled up to 5 volts.
I am working on a project to replace the Syntor X 9000 U500 microprocessor, U502 EEPROM and U501 EPROM. My replacement will completely do away with Motorola RSS and Motorola U501 firmware. It will handle the audio path switching, so it can use any audio path like you want to do. It will also be HAM Tx frequency agile, have a huge scan list, zones, use A7 and W9 control heads, have a repeater configuration mode, etc. I will let people know when I am ready to start selling them.
I am working on a project to replace the Syntor X 9000 U500 microprocessor, U502 EEPROM and U501 EPROM. My replacement will completely do away with Motorola RSS and Motorola U501 firmware. It will handle the audio path switching, so it can use any audio path like you want to do. It will also be HAM Tx frequency agile, have a huge scan list, zones, use A7 and W9 control heads, have a repeater configuration mode, etc. I will let people know when I am ready to start selling them.
Wow!
So what your planning on doing is having the ability to keypad enter a frequency and store it into a memory like any other frequency agile radio?
How many modes will be possible?
Definitely put me on the list for being notified of when this is available. Any idea roughly when you will be done, i take it that your still in the development stage then?
That would be one hell of a way to revive an otherwise great radio, its just a pain to have to break out the programming computer all the time to make a change.
So what your planning on doing is having the ability to keypad enter a frequency and store it into a memory like any other frequency agile radio?
How many modes will be possible?
Definitely put me on the list for being notified of when this is available. Any idea roughly when you will be done, i take it that your still in the development stage then?
That would be one hell of a way to revive an otherwise great radio, its just a pain to have to break out the programming computer all the time to make a change.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Yes, it has keypad entry for HAM Tx and all Rx that any VCO can reach, except for cell phone frequencies on the 800 radios (all possible VCO tuning steps will be supported). It will also support 900 Mhz converted radios for agile 900 HAM use. The radio can also measure and display the incoming CTCSS frequency or DCS code live in real time by using fast direct measurement, not by scanning all possible codes. The old Motorola problem with wrong CTCSS/DCS in a priority scan will be fixed. Like the Spectra, the selected channel will always be included in the scan (another fix). Another modification will allow RSSI. A simple modification will allow the new processor to measure the actual VCO frequency range for tuning use. This way the programming software can adjust to a particular radio's VCO range instead of relying on factory programmed preset values. Hardware and software support will be included for retuning the Rx front ends (some test bench equipment will still be required). The radio will use the existing factory cables, so it will still function as a mobile.So what your planning on doing is having the ability to keypad enter a frequency and store it into a memory like any other frequency agile radio?
At least 256 channels (all can be scanned), possibly 512 channels, no more than 1024 channels. It depends on how I do zones and the size/cost of the nonvolatile memory chips. I could do a version without zones that has many thousands of channels (I just cannot think of a good reason to do that).How many modes will be possible?
Yep, still in development.Definitely put me on the list for being notified of when this is available. Any idea roughly when you will be done, i take it that your still in the development stage then?
I also plan to release flash code for bug fixes, new features and special purpose dedicated X9k radios (like repeater conversions without a control head, etc.) on the web for no charge. Unlike Motorola, easy to accomplish field re-flashing will be available to any chip owner.
How do you plan on displaying RSSI, on the control head display somehow, or with a externally added meter?
I know with the Piexx setup for the Syntor X a full alignment can be done with nothing more than their software and tuning probe and a signal generator. I have seen it done, and that is definitely slick since anyone with a signal generator and some patience can align the front end on them.
I would think 256 is plenty, i use around 100 modes, but that is with everything possible around here programmed in, as well as stuff for other parts of the state and neighboring states where i roam.
One last question, need a Beta Tester?
I have a spare X9000 VHF in the shack that i could use solely for testing purposes, that would give some real world daily use to bring out any problems. I'm definitely excited about this!
That really interests me. What equipment will be necessary exactly?Hardware and software support will be included for retuning the Rx front ends (some test bench equipment will still be required). The radio will use the existing factory cables, so it will still function as a mobile.
I know with the Piexx setup for the Syntor X a full alignment can be done with nothing more than their software and tuning probe and a signal generator. I have seen it done, and that is definitely slick since anyone with a signal generator and some patience can align the front end on them.
I would think 256 is plenty, i use around 100 modes, but that is with everything possible around here programmed in, as well as stuff for other parts of the state and neighboring states where i roam.
One last question, need a Beta Tester?
I have a spare X9000 VHF in the shack that i could use solely for testing purposes, that would give some real world daily use to bring out any problems. I'm definitely excited about this!
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
..
me too. x9000's are very cheap radios for 100w drawers.... and built like a darn tank too
d
d
BRAVO MIKE JULIET ALPHA
"You can do whatever you want, there are just consequences..."
IF SOMEONE PM'S YOU - HAVE THE COURTESY TO REPLY.
"You can do whatever you want, there are just consequences..."
IF SOMEONE PM'S YOU - HAVE THE COURTESY TO REPLY.
Me first, me first!!
Plenty of takers Mike, better hurry up. Just kidding... But do let us know the second your ready to let someone get their hands on it.
Plenty of takers Mike, better hurry up. Just kidding... But do let us know the second your ready to let someone get their hands on it.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Yeah no kidding. I should be buying up the cheap $50 drawers on eBay, once Mike releases this mod it will be worth four times that for just the drawer.
Not to mention what it will do to the price of cables and heads on eBay.
Oh well, i'm ready. I got radios waiting to be modified.
Hurry up Mike!
Not to mention what it will do to the price of cables and heads on eBay.
Oh well, i'm ready. I got radios waiting to be modified.
Hurry up Mike!
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
NLY - only comment I want to make is don't run that crossband repeater in CSQ. You're giving up too much control that way. At least the PL will keep you from random noise, intermod, adjacent channel, etc. And of course there's always the off chance someone might pick your receive freq to use for whatever.
Good ideas here though. Mike is the Syntor man, so if it can be done, he'll do it. I only have an X, not an X9000, and even that is sitting in the storage locker now that I no longer drive and don't have a mobile anyway.
Good luck.
Good ideas here though. Mike is the Syntor man, so if it can be done, he'll do it. I only have an X, not an X9000, and even that is sitting in the storage locker now that I no longer drive and don't have a mobile anyway.
Good luck.
Chris,
Hamming 31 years
http://www.wa2zdy.com
Wesley Chapel, Pasco County, Florida
Snow? What's that?!
The human race is proof that Darwin was wrong.
Hamming 31 years
http://www.wa2zdy.com
Wesley Chapel, Pasco County, Florida
Snow? What's that?!
The human race is proof that Darwin was wrong.
I've been thinking about that of course. Right now it's all still in the planning stage. I have a spare X9000 sitting at the work bench awaiting the vehicle its going into, eventually.
I plan on tinkering on that one and seeing what i can do with the signals needed, audio levels, etc. Get it all fine tuned and figured out without any pressure on taking a radio out of service.
Worst case, i could always use an external PL decoder board, but i think i can make use of the audio mute signal at the U500 processor.
I plan on tinkering on that one and seeing what i can do with the signals needed, audio levels, etc. Get it all fine tuned and figured out without any pressure on taking a radio out of service.
Worst case, i could always use an external PL decoder board, but i think i can make use of the audio mute signal at the U500 processor.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Mr. Shineny Metal Man,
How about this: The RX audio that goes to the Siren box for PA/External receive appears on cable connector pin 9, shield on 15.
Now does this audio unsquelch with the PL and CSQ? ( I do not have a X9 here to check with) This should be enough level to drive the TX mic on the other radio thru a 2uf cap and a 3.3k resistor to limit the audio.
How about this: The RX audio that goes to the Siren box for PA/External receive appears on cable connector pin 9, shield on 15.
Now does this audio unsquelch with the PL and CSQ? ( I do not have a X9 here to check with) This should be enough level to drive the TX mic on the other radio thru a 2uf cap and a 3.3k resistor to limit the audio.
I will have to check into that! I plan on getting the radio on the bench and powered up tomorrow when i got some spare time and start experimenting!
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Ok, an update! I know, its been a little longer than planned to get this further along.
I have tested a crossband setup now with two X9000's, using CSQ so far until i get the rest of the details worked out.
The problem is still getting the PL controlling the setup. The channel activity on J1 Pin 21 goes high with any signal being received, so if your on a mode with a PL set for receive and a signal comes in CSQ the channel activity still goes high though the radio does not unmute the receive audio.
More on that in a minute.
I dug through and pull some parts out of the ol' bins and come up with a simple interface that i may or may not improve on in a future revision.
J1 Pin 1 is PTT, that gets switched to ground through a 2N2222A by the channel activity signal from the other radio. Just used what i have from other projects.
I took Filtered Audio from J1 Pin 9 and connected it to the Mic High line J1 Pin 27 of the other radio through a 1.5k resistor and a 2.2uf cap, again just values that i have an abundance of, and the audio is clean and more than sufficient to satisfy my needs. These just happen to be the same values i use for putting two Maxtrac's back to back for a crossband setup or simple repeater, taken from a .pdf schematic from Nand on how to do that.
Next step is to take the audio mute signal from U500 pin 25 and combine that with the channel activity to give a PL conditioned COR. I did verify what Mike was talking about with the audio mute signal, that line goes high whenever you hit a button on the control head to allow the button press beep to be heard. Mike, if you read this, which pins on the X9000 personality board J1 are spares, totally unconnected and can be reassigned? I would like to jumper from U500 pin 25 to a spare pin at J1 to get that signal out the front connector.
Technically this shouldn't be a problem, since normally one would set each radio for the mode wanted and then turn on the crossband repeat and walk away.
Further... If you have the crossband repeat enabled all the time, the rx and tx audio lines always connected, and your transmitting on one radio while the other receives you get a nasty sounding mix of the mic audio from you transmitting and the received audio from the other radio.
So, i'm making use of the Vehicular Charger i have with the Pac-RT control, NTN5438A. Pin 2 on the cable connector of this unit goes high when the repeater switch is set to on/enable and the HT is removed from the charger pocket. I will be using a couple small DPST pc mount relay's to disconnect everything at the flip of a switch, or placing the HT back in the charger.
One relay will disconnect both of the PTT lines, the other relay will disconnect both of the audio lines going to each radios mic input. I could have used a 4PST or 4PDT as well but i don't have any on hand.
Everything will be built on perfboard and put in a project enclosure with jacks, not decided on which or what yet, for a cable going to each radio and the wiring to the control. Maybe eventually i will get a PCB made for it, but i'm not looking to commercialize it.
The connections to each radio is just going to be made by opening the radio control cable connector and splicing in the connections, unless i still have enough NOS pins to just re-crimp the connections including the new wires with the old. This way each radio will have a pigtail going to the box so everything can still be seperated if needed.
Ordering up some shielded cable and connectors and so forth next week so i can build a final unit and get it installed in the mobile, provided nothing else keeps pulling me away from this project!
I have tested a crossband setup now with two X9000's, using CSQ so far until i get the rest of the details worked out.
The problem is still getting the PL controlling the setup. The channel activity on J1 Pin 21 goes high with any signal being received, so if your on a mode with a PL set for receive and a signal comes in CSQ the channel activity still goes high though the radio does not unmute the receive audio.
More on that in a minute.
I dug through and pull some parts out of the ol' bins and come up with a simple interface that i may or may not improve on in a future revision.
J1 Pin 1 is PTT, that gets switched to ground through a 2N2222A by the channel activity signal from the other radio. Just used what i have from other projects.
I took Filtered Audio from J1 Pin 9 and connected it to the Mic High line J1 Pin 27 of the other radio through a 1.5k resistor and a 2.2uf cap, again just values that i have an abundance of, and the audio is clean and more than sufficient to satisfy my needs. These just happen to be the same values i use for putting two Maxtrac's back to back for a crossband setup or simple repeater, taken from a .pdf schematic from Nand on how to do that.
Next step is to take the audio mute signal from U500 pin 25 and combine that with the channel activity to give a PL conditioned COR. I did verify what Mike was talking about with the audio mute signal, that line goes high whenever you hit a button on the control head to allow the button press beep to be heard. Mike, if you read this, which pins on the X9000 personality board J1 are spares, totally unconnected and can be reassigned? I would like to jumper from U500 pin 25 to a spare pin at J1 to get that signal out the front connector.
Technically this shouldn't be a problem, since normally one would set each radio for the mode wanted and then turn on the crossband repeat and walk away.
Further... If you have the crossband repeat enabled all the time, the rx and tx audio lines always connected, and your transmitting on one radio while the other receives you get a nasty sounding mix of the mic audio from you transmitting and the received audio from the other radio.
So, i'm making use of the Vehicular Charger i have with the Pac-RT control, NTN5438A. Pin 2 on the cable connector of this unit goes high when the repeater switch is set to on/enable and the HT is removed from the charger pocket. I will be using a couple small DPST pc mount relay's to disconnect everything at the flip of a switch, or placing the HT back in the charger.
One relay will disconnect both of the PTT lines, the other relay will disconnect both of the audio lines going to each radios mic input. I could have used a 4PST or 4PDT as well but i don't have any on hand.
Everything will be built on perfboard and put in a project enclosure with jacks, not decided on which or what yet, for a cable going to each radio and the wiring to the control. Maybe eventually i will get a PCB made for it, but i'm not looking to commercialize it.
The connections to each radio is just going to be made by opening the radio control cable connector and splicing in the connections, unless i still have enough NOS pins to just re-crimp the connections including the new wires with the old. This way each radio will have a pigtail going to the box so everything can still be seperated if needed.
Ordering up some shielded cable and connectors and so forth next week so i can build a final unit and get it installed in the mobile, provided nothing else keeps pulling me away from this project!
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
The retuning end of the X9k conversion project requires a mixer and accurate signal generator that has decent level control on the output. I want to do a cheap as possible board with a mixer and a RF to DC voltage converter. Since it only has any value just for retuning, I want the mixer and voltage converter to be simple enough for home made construction. Then I just need to document it and only worry about making any retuning support kits if there is a real demand.
I already have some beta testers lined up, but I will post a request if I need more, and then dive for the nearest foxhole
.
I expect to get a possible byproduct of a Systems 9000 serial data converter to RS-232 serial data converter (this is not directly part of my radio conversion project, just some bonus fallout). It will not be Motorola supported or exactly Motorola spec, but I will do my best to get it more than close enough to be usable. It would not work with any RSS, CPS or existing virtual control head software because they already talk Systems 9000 protocol and would only be confused by a real RS-232 radio connection. But, it would allow a laptop, any speed laptop, with RS-232 or USB->RS-232 converter to communicate with the radio system. It would still need software for the computer, which I will leave to those that have time for it.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... l#x9kperbd
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/images/s_x9kspins.gif
Just look for the grayed out pins, use spare 1 or spare 2. You might want to buffer it with a transistor circuit as the CMOS microprocessor pin is not really up to handling the real outside world directly. All the PC traces coming out from under the shield are bypassed with a cap. Unless you sneak your connection out on an existing bypassed copper trace (like a J301 socket Securenet keyloader trace), you run the risk of radiating noise into your radio receiver or back into the microprocessor shielded compartment from the Tx deck. If you use a keyloader line, you will also have to replace a chip resistor with a chip jumper and possibly remove a zener diode.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... ml#x9kj301
Do not forget that repeaters will benefit from a tuned output can or cans on the Tx, even cross band. It prevents any other strong local Tx signals from going down the Tx antenna, mixing in the X9k final PA transistors and radiating back out the Tx antenna as spurious garbage. However, tuned cans are not frequency agile. Even the low power VRS untuned Tx attenuator helps prevent this type of interference.
.
I already have some beta testers lined up, but I will post a request if I need more, and then dive for the nearest foxhole
.I expect to get a possible byproduct of a Systems 9000 serial data converter to RS-232 serial data converter (this is not directly part of my radio conversion project, just some bonus fallout). It will not be Motorola supported or exactly Motorola spec, but I will do my best to get it more than close enough to be usable. It would not work with any RSS, CPS or existing virtual control head software because they already talk Systems 9000 protocol and would only be confused by a real RS-232 radio connection. But, it would allow a laptop, any speed laptop, with RS-232 or USB->RS-232 converter to communicate with the radio system. It would still need software for the computer, which I will leave to those that have time for it.
Take a look at the Syntor X 9000 Radio Connector table in this link:which pins on the X9000 personality board J1 are spares
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... l#x9kperbd
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/images/s_x9kspins.gif
Just look for the grayed out pins, use spare 1 or spare 2. You might want to buffer it with a transistor circuit as the CMOS microprocessor pin is not really up to handling the real outside world directly. All the PC traces coming out from under the shield are bypassed with a cap. Unless you sneak your connection out on an existing bypassed copper trace (like a J301 socket Securenet keyloader trace), you run the risk of radiating noise into your radio receiver or back into the microprocessor shielded compartment from the Tx deck. If you use a keyloader line, you will also have to replace a chip resistor with a chip jumper and possibly remove a zener diode.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... ml#x9kj301
Do not forget that repeaters will benefit from a tuned output can or cans on the Tx, even cross band. It prevents any other strong local Tx signals from going down the Tx antenna, mixing in the X9k final PA transistors and radiating back out the Tx antenna as spurious garbage. However, tuned cans are not frequency agile. Even the low power VRS untuned Tx attenuator helps prevent this type of interference.
You had better have an automatic ID on that transmitter, as the FCC requires this for unattended transmittersturn on the crossband repeat and walk away
.
Last edited by Mike B on Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kf4sqb
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- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 9:11 pm
- What radios do you own?: I can't enter that much....
Mike, while we're still on the subject of your X9K re-work, will it still support a siren after your mod, or will you be doing away with all such 'extras' in your mod?
brett "dot" kitchens "at" marel "dot" com
Look for the new "Jedi" series portables!
Bat-Phone= BAT-CAVE (2283)
-.- .. ....- -.-. -.-- . .. ... -- -.-- -... .-. --- - .... . .-. .-.-.-
Look for the new "Jedi" series portables!
Bat-Phone= BAT-CAVE (2283)
-.- .. ....- -.-. -.-- . .. ... -- -.-- -... .-. --- - .... . .-. .-.-.-
Yes, I want to keep the external Siren/PA box and setup an operational mode to make it safe for airhorn, external radio, public address only use. So, it will not power back up with siren tones that were never programmed after a power loss.
It would not take much work at all to add external radio audio to the existing radio drawer audio amplifier. All that would be needed is a relay to switch from the inside speaker to an outside speaker (the radio itself is plenty loud for most use). An amplifier to feed the microphone audio into the Option Rx Audio would add public address. No airhorn this way though
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I want to keep the VRS, but I have not looked into how it operates yet, with its priority scheme and all (since it has no EEPROM of its own, currently it depends allot on support from the microprocessor I have removed from the radio drawer). I do not know if trying to keep its built in priority scheme will be practical or not, but I suspect not. However, the VRS uses the exact same microprocessor as the radio drawer. This has me thinking of changing out the VRS processor chip which will remove the VRS Motorola firmware, doing away with the Motorola priority scheme, adding DTMF decoding, digital voice recorded message output and using one of the built-in CML multiple tone decoder chips for a dedicated portable DTMF programming mode. Then you could use hand held DTMF to select any mobile radio channel you want (without repeating DTMF on the mobile) and have a primitive audio read back verification of the selected channel name (one prerecorded letter/number at a time). The other three built-in CML tone decoders would still do normal preprogrammed channel steering just like they can do now. The modified VRS would be for individual use, since it would not have the Motorola priority system any longer.
Keep in mind, I'm still working on the main radio part. I expect supporting the existing Siren/PA to be easiest and therefore next. Everything else is much farther down the road.
Since the radio drawer now has two already wired up empty 28 pin sockets and the option J301 socket, I have already done initial design exploration for things like internal DTMF encode/decode, modem (Bell 202 and MSK), tone paging, Morse code Tx ID, etc. The purpose was simply feasibility assessment. I did not want to make early choices in the main replacement processor design that would hamper adding features like this later. These would fall under the much, much later category. I have also designed for multiple radio drawer support on a single control head.
It would not take much work at all to add external radio audio to the existing radio drawer audio amplifier. All that would be needed is a relay to switch from the inside speaker to an outside speaker (the radio itself is plenty loud for most use). An amplifier to feed the microphone audio into the Option Rx Audio would add public address. No airhorn this way though
.I want to keep the VRS, but I have not looked into how it operates yet, with its priority scheme and all (since it has no EEPROM of its own, currently it depends allot on support from the microprocessor I have removed from the radio drawer). I do not know if trying to keep its built in priority scheme will be practical or not, but I suspect not. However, the VRS uses the exact same microprocessor as the radio drawer. This has me thinking of changing out the VRS processor chip which will remove the VRS Motorola firmware, doing away with the Motorola priority scheme, adding DTMF decoding, digital voice recorded message output and using one of the built-in CML multiple tone decoder chips for a dedicated portable DTMF programming mode. Then you could use hand held DTMF to select any mobile radio channel you want (without repeating DTMF on the mobile) and have a primitive audio read back verification of the selected channel name (one prerecorded letter/number at a time). The other three built-in CML tone decoders would still do normal preprogrammed channel steering just like they can do now. The modified VRS would be for individual use, since it would not have the Motorola priority system any longer.
Keep in mind, I'm still working on the main radio part. I expect supporting the existing Siren/PA to be easiest and therefore next. Everything else is much farther down the road.
Since the radio drawer now has two already wired up empty 28 pin sockets and the option J301 socket, I have already done initial design exploration for things like internal DTMF encode/decode, modem (Bell 202 and MSK), tone paging, Morse code Tx ID, etc. The purpose was simply feasibility assessment. I did not want to make early choices in the main replacement processor design that would hamper adding features like this later. These would fall under the much, much later category. I have also designed for multiple radio drawer support on a single control head.
Dual radio support perhaps?
Any chance on a model for programming FPP scan out of ham channels on the fly (like traveling a bit and want to program in local fire channels etc).
I know, the wish list keeps on growing...
Any chance on a model for programming FPP scan out of ham channels on the fly (like traveling a bit and want to program in local fire channels etc).
I know, the wish list keeps on growing...
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
Actually I want quad radio support. Low band, VHF, UHF and 900 Mhz (converted from an 800 radio). You should see my vehicle radio rack . However, only dual radio support is feasible with the current factory wiring. The current dual radio only allows one radio drawer to have a Siren/PA connection and no VRS support at all, while the other drawer does not support anything. There is no problem with dual radio support for the modified radios and factory cabling.
I can fix the VRS availability after I get around to working on a new version, but the VRS will still only connect to a single radio drawer.
Ultimately, included in the design process, but a much longer time down the road, is an external audio switching box that will be connected to the serial control bus. It will connect a Siren/PA, VRS, external modem or cross band connection between any radio drawers (instant RICK) and support a separate control head connection, separating the radio drawers serial control from the control head serial control bus. It would also be used to optionally route radio Rx audio through only one or two radio drawer speakers. Finding good spots for 4 speakers in a mobile is tough, especially since you might want any one of them as the “most important” one too hear at any time. Each radio would have a unique alert tone, speaker assignments, push button mute control, and prioritized volume levels. There would also be programmable scan priority rules between radio drawers. It would require modified radio cables. However, some the shorter Securenet cables or Spectra Siren/PA cables might be better candidates requiring less modification. The control head should run on an unmodified Spectra Systems 9000 cable from the audio switch box (a nice DB-25 and all). Considering the current wiring with just two drawers and a public address microphone connection required a modified microphone circuit to compensate for the loading, a microphone distribution circuit would be required for a large setup like this. Dual control head support would also be in the cards with dedicated connections (regular front heads would work). An optional extra control head display could be dedicated to show activity on the other radio drawers that are not currently selected as the primary drawer. Right now true multiple radios is only a long term goal, but I have put in lots of design work to make sure I have a feasible path to follow.
Someday, I wanted to look at interfacing the ARRL repeater database program to the radio by providing a computer connection. It is not a perfect list (lots of wrong/outdated information, I think because they rely on the coordinating councils mostly), but you can add your own entires. It would make for easy long distance travel to new states. Zones are already in the plan for use around the extended area of the old home stomping grounds. Unless you divide frequencies up by zone yourself, the Rx scan does not know or care if its HAM band or not. I have already given thought to having a selectable drop in zone, allowing two zones together, but it is hard to figure out how to control or display this purposed operating mode.
. However, only dual radio support is feasible with the current factory wiring. The current dual radio only allows one radio drawer to have a Siren/PA connection and no VRS support at all, while the other drawer does not support anything. There is no problem with dual radio support for the modified radios and factory cabling.I can fix the VRS availability after I get around to working on a new version, but the VRS will still only connect to a single radio drawer.
Ultimately, included in the design process, but a much longer time down the road, is an external audio switching box that will be connected to the serial control bus. It will connect a Siren/PA, VRS, external modem or cross band connection between any radio drawers (instant RICK) and support a separate control head connection, separating the radio drawers serial control from the control head serial control bus. It would also be used to optionally route radio Rx audio through only one or two radio drawer speakers. Finding good spots for 4 speakers in a mobile is tough, especially since you might want any one of them as the “most important” one too hear at any time. Each radio would have a unique alert tone, speaker assignments, push button mute control, and prioritized volume levels. There would also be programmable scan priority rules between radio drawers. It would require modified radio cables
. However, some the shorter Securenet cables or Spectra Siren/PA cables might be better candidates requiring less modification. The control head should run on an unmodified Spectra Systems 9000 cable from the audio switch box (a nice DB-25 and all). Considering the current wiring with just two drawers and a public address microphone connection required a modified microphone circuit to compensate for the loading, a microphone distribution circuit would be required for a large setup like this. Dual control head support would also be in the cards with dedicated connections (regular front heads would work). An optional extra control head display could be dedicated to show activity on the other radio drawers that are not currently selected as the primary drawer. Right now true multiple radios is only a long term goal, but I have put in lots of design work to make sure I have a feasible path to follow.Someday, I wanted to look at interfacing the ARRL repeater database program to the radio by providing a computer connection. It is not a perfect list (lots of wrong/outdated information, I think because they rely on the coordinating councils mostly), but you can add your own entires. It would make for easy long distance travel to new states. Zones are already in the plan for use around the extended area of the old home stomping grounds. Unless you divide frequencies up by zone yourself, the Rx scan does not know or care if its HAM band or not. I have already given thought to having a selectable drop in zone, allowing two zones together, but it is hard to figure out how to control or display this purposed operating mode.
Wow, talk about a feature packed mod that your looking to build!
All i need is frequency agility and programming from the control head! But it sure is intriguing reading all the things your looking to accomplish.
All i need is frequency agility and programming from the control head! But it sure is intriguing reading all the things your looking to accomplish.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
-
kf4sqb
- Posts: 1500
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 9:11 pm
- What radios do you own?: I can't enter that much....
Damn, Mike, you're really going the distance with this thing, aren't you? FPP is the main thing I'd like to see on my X9000s, followed closely by selected channel scan, and 'scan off hook', like the Spectra has. Being able to keep the siren is also a definate bonus. Sounds like you have it all covered for my wish list! 
brett "dot" kitchens "at" marel "dot" com
Look for the new "Jedi" series portables!
Bat-Phone= BAT-CAVE (2283)
-.- .. ....- -.-. -.-- . .. ... -- -.-- -... .-. --- - .... . .-. .-.-.-
Look for the new "Jedi" series portables!
Bat-Phone= BAT-CAVE (2283)
-.- .. ....- -.-. -.-- . .. ... -- -.-- -... .-. --- - .... . .-. .-.-.-
Ok, i'm going to sound stupid here, but i have to ask.
What is FPP??
As for the scan off hook, do you mean that when the radio is scanning and you grab the mic it stays on that channel until you hang up the mic again? I WOULD LOVE THAT!! I hate having to stop the scan and then get back to the channel i want to talk on.
What is FPP??
As for the scan off hook, do you mean that when the radio is scanning and you grab the mic it stays on that channel until you hang up the mic again? I WOULD LOVE THAT!! I hate having to stop the scan and then get back to the channel i want to talk on.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
900 X9000
Mike, have you done (or attempted) the 900 MHz conversion yet? I recently found a candidate radio on eBay, and am waiting for it to arrive. I'd welcome any comments you might have.
Regards,
Jeff W6JK
Regards,
Jeff W6JK
Ok, DUH, i remembered what FPP was right after i posted that. Thanks Pj.
On further inspection, U500 pin 25 although conditioned by PL is useless. If you introduce any kind of a connection to it, even buffered with a transistor, the receive audio immediately goes to nearly nothing. You have to turn the volume up to 15 to even slightly hear the receive audio.
I pulled the added circuit and the audio came back. I have tried different component values and variations, nothing works so far.
Looking for other sources of a PL conditioned signal in the radio.
On further inspection, U500 pin 25 although conditioned by PL is useless. If you introduce any kind of a connection to it, even buffered with a transistor, the receive audio immediately goes to nearly nothing. You have to turn the volume up to 15 to even slightly hear the receive audio.
I pulled the added circuit and the audio came back. I have tried different component values and variations, nothing works so far.
Looking for other sources of a PL conditioned signal in the radio.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Ok, here is a quick update.
I just got done yesterday building this into a more compact easy to do setup.
All connections are now done at the control head. i just used a push in strain relief and shielded cable to bring the connections needed out the back of the head. Got this idea from an SP head that i had in the junk box.
All i did was move one pin at the radio end of the control cable, i just popped out pin 24 and put it in pin 21, this brings channel activity to the control head end of the cable on pin 28, Spare 1.
I also initially moved pin 13 to pin 1 to bring PTT up to the control head end on pin 29, Spare 2. But i have further tested it just using the PTT on the mic at pin 24 and there doesn't seem to be any difference in function so i probably won't bother with re-routing the PTT line anymore.
Here is all the connections needed, these are the pin numbers of the control head connector, i just soldered to the back side of the connector inside the control head.
PTT Pin 24
Ground Pin 23
Channel Activity 28
Detected Audio 45
Mic High 12
If you want to use Filtered Audio instead then move pin 13 to pin 9 at the radio end to put filtered audio at pin 29 using the Spare 2 line.
I found the detected audio was fine with a 1.5k resistor and 2.2uf cap in series to the Mic high of the opposite radio.
Eventually i will make a schematic showing the PTT switching using a couple 2N2222A's and the disconnect relays.
Also note, this is still a CSQ crossband repeater. Which suites my needs since nearly all ham band repeaters don't have tone on the output anyway. But this does give me some concern for the UHF side since i use a simplex frequency to go back and forth to my MT1000. I have not yet cracked the nut on using the audio mute signal at U500 pin 25. I have tried buffering it, but its way to sensitive to any added circuitry and the receive audio level drops to 25% or less when anything is connected to it.
I just got done yesterday building this into a more compact easy to do setup.
All connections are now done at the control head. i just used a push in strain relief and shielded cable to bring the connections needed out the back of the head. Got this idea from an SP head that i had in the junk box.
All i did was move one pin at the radio end of the control cable, i just popped out pin 24 and put it in pin 21, this brings channel activity to the control head end of the cable on pin 28, Spare 1.
I also initially moved pin 13 to pin 1 to bring PTT up to the control head end on pin 29, Spare 2. But i have further tested it just using the PTT on the mic at pin 24 and there doesn't seem to be any difference in function so i probably won't bother with re-routing the PTT line anymore.
Here is all the connections needed, these are the pin numbers of the control head connector, i just soldered to the back side of the connector inside the control head.
PTT Pin 24
Ground Pin 23
Channel Activity 28
Detected Audio 45
Mic High 12
If you want to use Filtered Audio instead then move pin 13 to pin 9 at the radio end to put filtered audio at pin 29 using the Spare 2 line.
I found the detected audio was fine with a 1.5k resistor and 2.2uf cap in series to the Mic high of the opposite radio.
Eventually i will make a schematic showing the PTT switching using a couple 2N2222A's and the disconnect relays.
Also note, this is still a CSQ crossband repeater. Which suites my needs since nearly all ham band repeaters don't have tone on the output anyway. But this does give me some concern for the UHF side since i use a simplex frequency to go back and forth to my MT1000. I have not yet cracked the nut on using the audio mute signal at U500 pin 25. I have tried buffering it, but its way to sensitive to any added circuitry and the receive audio level drops to 25% or less when anything is connected to it.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Nope, what would you suggest using? If you can give me an idea of what to use that would be great. I used whatever i had laying around to test but i guess it might be time to order some more sophisticated components, lol.
The Audio Mute signal goes to roughly 5v when a signal is received, it also goes high whenever a button press tone is sent to the speaker. But by using the channel activity signal to check against, gate them together, then it wouldn't be a problem.
I tried using a 2N3904 with a 10k resistor from the audio mute signal to the base. I and gated that to another 2N3904 and 10k resistor from the base to the channel activity line. Just as an initial test i used a pull up resistor to B+ and the collector of the first 3904 on the audio mute line, and then of course the emitter to the collector of the second 3904 and the emitter of that one was just floating and connected to a volt meter for testing.
The logic was right, and it worked pefectly, on a mode with a PL programmed for receive it would only switch the new COR line when receiving PL, and if i switched to a mode without a receive PL it still worked in CSQ. Because of the AND gate it wouldn't retransmit the beeps from button presses, the audio mute line going high but not the channel activity.
The only problem was of course the audio mute line being pulled down enough to kill the receive audio level. I had to set the volume to 15 to get a readable level.
The Audio Mute signal goes to roughly 5v when a signal is received, it also goes high whenever a button press tone is sent to the speaker. But by using the channel activity signal to check against, gate them together, then it wouldn't be a problem.
I tried using a 2N3904 with a 10k resistor from the audio mute signal to the base. I and gated that to another 2N3904 and 10k resistor from the base to the channel activity line. Just as an initial test i used a pull up resistor to B+ and the collector of the first 3904 on the audio mute line, and then of course the emitter to the collector of the second 3904 and the emitter of that one was just floating and connected to a volt meter for testing.
The logic was right, and it worked pefectly, on a mode with a PL programmed for receive it would only switch the new COR line when receiving PL, and if i switched to a mode without a receive PL it still worked in CSQ. Because of the AND gate it wouldn't retransmit the beeps from button presses, the audio mute line going high but not the channel activity.
The only problem was of course the audio mute line being pulled down enough to kill the receive audio level. I had to set the volume to 15 to get a readable level.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Why not use a 74 CMOS logic gate to connect to the U500 micro? Its input impedance will be correct and you can choose between inverting or non-inverting gates. You could also use an AND gate function to combine the Channel Activity with the Mute signals, then buffer their output with a transistor circuit fir the outside world.
The answer is yes, there has been progress. Since my development computer motherboard IDE channels started going internment, I did loose about a week of time recovering/rebuilding it (since the original was in a proprietary Dell case, I did not get to keep much of the original computer). Still, I will let you know when it finally hits beta testing.
Re: syntor x 9000 cor cos
Necrothreading, but this was an incredibly forward looking thread at the time.
Lots of good ideas, but the platform is Spectra, not X9000. You can't change the display on the X9000 without putting the control head into programming mode.
FPP may not be that far off. It's just a wonder it's taken so long to get the brain space carved out.
Lots of good ideas, but the platform is Spectra, not X9000. You can't change the display on the X9000 without putting the control head into programming mode.
FPP may not be that far off. It's just a wonder it's taken so long to get the brain space carved out.
Re: syntor x 9000 cor cos
As an aside, I recently noticed that the some of the codeplugs of the Syntor X are -45 parts, so a -45 EPROM should be acceptable.