FRS GMRS Saber I conversion legality

InfernoMDM · Post by **InfernoMDM** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:49 am

My apologies for bringing this question here but they consider you gods on the subject, and currently I need some more expert knowledge then my research.

I had some Saber IE radios switched to FRS by a RSS dealer a few years ago. Although I asked him if it was legal. Currently on another forum I am getting warned for some infraction possibly this conversion.

Id like to know if I did anything outside the FCC bounds? If so can you point it out in the regulations as I did look and just looked again today. I couldnt find anything but I am not sure.

RadioSouth · Post by **RadioSouth** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:33 am

Sabers cannot legally do FRS frequencies for 3 reasons that come to mind. Not capable of the narrowband requirement, are not unmodifiable 500 Mw radios and do not have permnanently attached antennas. Not sure of the GMRS part # acceptibility needed for a radio but this is a likely application for them and requires a simple to get license.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:18 am

What he said.

Now, all that in mind, FRS is the biggest joke of a radio service there is. Your saber is the least of the messed up stuff on FRS frequencies and there is no enforcement. As long as you aren't bothering anybody, I wouldn't worry.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:59 am

RadioSouth is correct (cannot use Saber for FRS) but not exactly for the reasons specified: it is illegal to use ANY radio for FRS unless it is an FRS type-accepted radio and says so on the label. RS's three observations are why a Saber would not qualify for FRS type acceptance.

Sabers are type-accepted for Part 95, but you do need a license.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:06 am

There is so many non-frs type accepted radios in use on frs that it's not uncommon for this question to pop up.

Recently on eBay i have seen everything from Genesis series and up HT's programmed with the FRS channels. And i have seen X9000's and Spectra's with them in there. When i got my UHF X9000 and read what was in it the FRS channels were the last 14 in there.

100w on FRS, hmm... Well i guess that's one way of breaking in with all the kiddies making those beeping sounds with some of the radios. The call or page function.

Though i don't endorse illegal use of any radio service, it's one of those, who the heck is even going to know circumstances. And even if you do bother anyone on frs with a higher power output how can they prove your doing anything wrong without seeing the radio, not to mention that every radio has a part 15 label, or mention in the manual, that you need to accept any interference anyway.

The FRS allocation is useable for very very very local coms. We have got it to go as far as a couple blocks with clear line of site, but most of the radios barely even meet the 500mw spec. Not to mention that most of them also have an antenna that is totally worthless. There is a lot of articles on the net about hacking this radio or that one and putting a better antenna on, not increasing the power output, just changing the antenna. I played with a couple beat up radios i found at a garage sale, by adding a short length of RG-174 and bringing it out to a female BNC to connect a good HT antenna it made a vast inprovement. Though also technically illegal it proved a point about the manufacturers design.

I tossed both of them in the trash after i was done experimenting. They had plastic cases that had been glued or welded together during production, so i had to destroy them to get inside and see what kind of components they were using. Most just use the driver chip as the final! These barely had 200mw output.

Now if you think FRS is bad, try MURS! Radio Shack sold a ton of cheapo 2w HT's for MURS around here, the kids use them more than CB's now. And some of them had detachable antennas so they are running mag mounts with them mobile.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:59 pm

If you hold a GMRS license, you can legally use the first 7 (all of the 462 MHz freqs) with 5 watts programmed in your saber. These freqs are shared between FRS and GMRS.

Jay

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:46 pm

How to annoy the kiddies:

110 watt mobile on FRS-1 into a 5dB gain antenna. MDC1200 w/ preamble. PTT ID pre-time set for the maximum 6 seconds. MDC emergency set for infinate impolite retries and no polite retries. Press the orange button.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:18 pm

nmfire10 wrote:How to annoy the kiddies:

110 watt mobile on FRS-1 into a 5dB gain antenna. MDC1200 w/ preamble. PTT ID pre-time set for the maximum 6 seconds. MDC emergency set for infinate impolite retries and no polite retries. Press the orange button.

I love it!

compuman81 · Post by **compuman81** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:55 pm

nmfire10 wrote:How to annoy the kiddies:

110 watt mobile on FRS-1 into a 5dB gain antenna. MDC1200 w/ preamble. PTT ID pre-time set for the maximum 6 seconds. MDC emergency set for infinate impolite retries and no polite retries. Press the orange button.

haha i can barely stand listening to that on the motorola only HAM repeater...........

too bad the frs radios don't have NUISANCE DELETE

AEC · Post by **AEC** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:39 am

Too bad I've had many 'occurrences' with the kiddies running through Wally World screaming into those FRS radios and my Saber going nuts with those stupid 'tones' they use to 'call' their friends...how many key ups does it take to get one's attention anyhow?

I decided to reverse the process and enable MDC on all my GMRS and FRS channels, I've even gone into wally world with my HT1000 on a popular FRS channel and 'let fly' with the emergency button pressed.

It's tiring hearing those bleeps and bloops constantly, and it never ends, especially when you have a half dozen kids on a single channel playing 'king of the noisemakers' with the PTT over and over again..Grrr!

As far as 'legality' is concerned, FRS falls right in there with CB...who really cares....REALLY?

FRS is good for its intended purpose, but never USED for that purpose, it's become the 'geek toy' and has become the accepted HT of the kiddie era, and is 'almost' as loved as their prepaid cellphones 90% of the kids have these days, not to mention those that are riding on mom and dad's post paid cell plan. It's now 'okay' to have a 'radio' on your belt, years ago you were looked down upon for this.....How times have changed.

GMRS is legal to use with ANY commercial radio that can operate on that band, and I've had P110/GP300s as well as the MTs, HTs and Sabers loaded up with repeaters and T/A channels as well.

FRS on the other hand...well, no, not legally, but then again, who's going to know?
Unless you live close to an FCC monitoring station, the world may never know...make your choice, play the game, but keep away from FRS at all costs and your ears will thank you for it.

FRS is the UHF CB of the 'modern' era, DON'T let the kids have access to real radios and lock up your RIB and RSS.

Good thing I've yet to hear of a band opening and hear an FRS radio sound with a wally world shopper at the mic!

Ugghhh...CQ FRS....CQ FRS????

What's next...900 FRS?

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:25 am

To be technical, GMRS is not allowed on any UHF "commercial" (LMR) radio; rather, the rules require that a radio be type-accepted specifically for Part 95 in order to be legally used on GMRS. To be sure, the type-acceptance rules are the same (except for transmitter power), but for some reason, some manufacturers of UHF equipment do not seek and do not obtain Part 95 type acceptance.

N9LLO · Post by **N9LLO** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:05 pm

Radios that are type accepted for part 90 that do not exceed 50w power are automatically accepted for part 95 use.

Chris
N9LLO

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:54 pm

That must be a recent change in the regs; can you give me a cite?

N9LLO · Post by **N9LLO** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:54 am

It's not in the regs. As the rule states: to find out if a paticular radio is accepted for GMRS use write the FCC. Many have done so and that is the answer they recieve.

Chris
N9LLO

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:33 pm

If you program the radio for narrowband, and low power such as a ht-1250 or 1550, I see no problem, for Sabers GMRS is OK.. As been said, it's UHF CB, nobody cares, and was just a marketing tool for Radio Shack and the rest of the radio manufacturers. Instead of giving them a seperate band( as was asked for and rejected in the 800mhz band in the early 80's) they decided to cause interference to legally licensed users on the GMRS freqs, some of which are still commercial, covered under the grandfathering clause for use.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:30 pm

nmfire10 wrote:How to annoy the kiddies:

110 watt mobile on FRS-1 into a 5dB gain antenna. MDC1200 w/ preamble. PTT ID pre-time set for the maximum 6 seconds. MDC emergency set for infinate impolite retries and no polite retries. Press the orange button.

Make sure you transmit with 67.0Hz PL, so all bases are covered

(Seems like that's the only privacy code... err... PL anyone ever uses on those kind of radios.)

MRFLASHPORT · Post by **MRFLASHPORT** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:32 pm

Hey,

Who really cares what kind of radio or how much power anyone uses on gmrs/frs? Its all simplex anyway.

Post by **akardam** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:00 pm

MRFLASHPORT wrote:Its all simplex anyway.

Au contraire, mon a mi. The GMRS service includes 8 repeated pairs.

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:02 am

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:If you program the radio for narrowband, and low power such as a ht-1250 or 1550, I see no problem, for Sabers GMRS is OK.. As been said, it's UHF CB, nobody cares, and was just a marketing tool for Radio Shack and the rest of the radio manufacturers. Instead of giving them a seperate band( as was asked for and rejected in the 800mhz band in the early 80's) they decided to cause interference to legally licensed users on the GMRS freqs, some of which are still commercial, covered under the grandfathering clause for use.

uh..hum, actually people *DO CARE*, I suggest checking into the latest FCC enforcement logs, Riley Hollingsworth recently started conducting (at the urging of the Personal Radio Steering Group) enforcement actions against GMRS users very recently.

Interesting to note, the recent enforcement actions are for GMRS rule violations but those in the actions are also amateur radio operators. In other words, he seems to have a thing for hams who are also GMRS licenense holders who have been playing games on GMRS repeaters.

There are a great number of GMRS repeater systems, some of them are substantial in investment, and those owners take the operation of their systems seriously. While the FCC may turn a blind eye to the bubble pack GMRS/FRS radios, when it comes to repeater operations (including technical standards, note Hollingsworth recent comments in his letters to to system owners about the use of MDC/digital signalling and rebroadcast of public safety traffic) they do act quickly on complaints.

DBoz · Post by **DBoz** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:23 am

I hope this thread is not too old, but I have a question regarding this issue. On another board, I was told in no uncertain terms (and rather rudely) that it is not legal to use a Saber on GMRS as it is not specifically type accepted for part 95 use. However, N9LLO has stated above that:

N9LLO wrote:Radios that are type accepted for part 90 that do not exceed 50w power are automatically accepted for part 95 use.

Chris
N9LLO

I am very interested in finding out if my unmodified Saber I is or isn't legal for transmitting on GMRS. I do have a GMRS license, by the way. I would appreciate it if you could point me to some documentation supporting this or let me know who to contact at the FCC to find this out.

Thank you,

DBoz

Osprey · Post by **Osprey** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:59 am

DBoz wrote:I hope this thread is not too old, but I have a question regarding this issue. On another board, I was told in no uncertain terms (and rather rudely) that it is not legal to use a Saber on GMRS as it is not specifically type accepted for part 95 use. However, N9LLO has stated above that:

N9LLO wrote:Radios that are type accepted for part 90 that do not exceed 50w power are automatically accepted for part 95 use.

Chris
N9LLO
I am very interested in finding out if my unmodified Saber I is or isn't legal for transmitting on GMRS. I do have a GMRS license, by the way. I would appreciate it if you could point me to some documentation supporting this or let me know who to contact at the FCC to find this out.

Thank you,

DBoz

Let me guess, Popular Wireless?

Using Part 90 radios on GMRS has been happening for a few decades. Many, many people use them without getting any trouble from the FCC.

Take Repeaters, for example. There's very few 95 repeaters out there. I'd wager 9 out of 10 GMRS Repeaters are Part 90. If the FCC wanted to make a big stink out of it, they could. But they're more than happy to put FRS/GMRS Hybrids on the market which they know will be used by unlicensed people.

You're a GMRS licensee. If you ID as required, and operate within the rules, there'd be no reason for the FCC to be interested in you. I'd not lose sleep over it.

DBoz · Post by **DBoz** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:19 pm

Thanks for the info. It actually was not Popular Wireless. I have sent an email to the FCC asking about the Saber.

Will · Post by **Will** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:50 pm

Code: Select all

[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2004]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR95.194]

[Page 533]
 
                       TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION
 
                    CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS
                         COMMISSION (CONTINUED)
 
PART 95_PERSONAL RADIO SERVICES--Table of Contents
 
                  Subpart B_Family Radio Service (FRS)
 
Sec. 95.194  (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.

    (a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You can identify an 
FCC certified FRS unit by the label placed on it by the manufacturer.)
    (b) You must not make, or have made, any internal modification to an 
FRS unit. Any internal modification cancels the FCC certification and 
voids your authority to operate the unit in the FRS.
    (c) You may not attach any antenna, power amplifier, or other 
apparatus to an FRS unit that has not been FCC certified as part of that 
FRS unit. There are no exceptions to this rule and attaching any such 
apparatus to a FRS unit cancels the FCC certification and voids 
everyone's authority to operate the unit in the FRS.
    (d) FRS units are prohibited from transmitting data in store-and-
forward packet operation mode.

                     Subpart E_Technical Regulations
 
Sec. 95.603  Certification required.

    (d) Each FRS unit (a transmitter that operates or is intended to 
operate in the FRS) must be certified for use in the FRS in accordance 
with Subpart J of Part 2 of this chapter.

Sec. 95.639  Maximum transmitter power.

    (d) No FRS unit, under any condition of modulation, shall exceed 
0.500 W effective radiated power (ERP).
        
Sec. 95.647  FRS unit and R/C transmitter antennas.

    The antenna of each FRS unit, and the antenna of each R/C station 
transmitting in the 72-76 MHz band, must be an integral part of the 
transmitter. The antenna must have no gain (as compared to a half-wave 
dipole) and must be vertically polarized.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, use of ANY radio transmitter for FRS requires it to be Certified. Using any other transmitter would be a violation of section 301, transmitting without a FCC license.

motorola_otaku · Post by **motorola_otaku** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:37 am

If Riley's going to go after me for running MDC on GMRS, he needs to start with the plant contractor jacka**es who are running simplex on the repeater input frequencies. Hell, they're probably using Maxon or Jobcom POSes that aren't even close to IS. Then there's the ship repeaters.. no enforcement there either.

My GMRS setup consists of a 40w MSF5000 and Astro gear. I guarantee you, all of it works to spec and is perfectly suitable for Part 95 use, even if the book says it ain't.

mike m · Post by **mike m** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:56 am

" The antenna must have no gain (as compared to a half-wave
dipole) and must be vertically polarized. "

Does this mean if I hold my kids RC xmitter sideways and not straight up I can get fined by Riley ?

Mike

440roadrunner · Post by **440roadrunner** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:10 am

If Riley's going to go after me for running

Riley Hollingsworth is concerned with AMATEUR RADIO violations, but you are certainly free to document and send in complaints about other vioations to the appropriate division.

Up here, in the Pacific Northwest, illegal fishing boats have continually been an irritation on HF, and though I'm too far away, I understand they invade 2 meters, too.

If you want things enforced, you are going to have to make a stink about it. That simple.

RadioSouth · Post by **RadioSouth** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:41 am

440roadrunner wrote:
If Riley's going to go after me for running

Up here, in the Pacific Northwest, illegal fishing boats have continually been an irritation on HF, and though I'm too far away, I understand they invade 2 meters, too.

Digressing a bit it's quite interesting to monitor comm's. that the users think are private. When I lived in NY I was a serious recreational fisherman and most of the day the marine channels could be heard throughout my house, especially those of the commercial party or head boats. Then one day 'poof' the commercial boat comm's. vanished. I looked thru all the marine frequencies for them including HF and they were nowhere to be found. So missing this resource I borrowed one of those auto-logging frequency counters and booked a trip with one of these boats. Well at the end of the day I took the Scout concealed in my tackle box and found where they all went, it was off to the RailRoad band for them. I guess if you're going to operate in this manner R/R was a good choice for them as the frequencies are close enough to use the marine antenna they already have. Well loading up there freq's. in the scanner the info. was as good as gold, when they talked on marine they were intentionally vague and made up some of their own radio codes to confuse the folks monitoring. Well not so when they thought they were on a 'private' channel nothing was held back. Yup, good as gold ! Also found similar candor when a few public safety agencies were newly on their 'private' 800 trunking systems. Apparently the folks selling these systems grossly oversold the privacy issue to them and not knowing better they let everything rip.

Will · Post by **Will** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:16 pm

mike m wrote:" The antenna must have no gain (as compared to a half-wave
dipole) and must be vertically polarized. "

Does this mean if I hold my kids RC xmitter sideways and not straight up I can get fined by Riley ?

Mike

Mike, I would like to add to your comment. The FRS radio IS only type Certified for use on FRS when opperated in the correct way..Hand Held....

Now a little TRUE story from the FCC files.. A FRS'er, as we call them, had the FCC Enforcement, and Engineering visit his home one evening. He was running a FRS radio on on FRS frequency. To make it worse the radio was on top of a twenty foot pole on his house with CAT5 cable running down to his computer's sound card. Altho nicley wrappen in plastic, it was found to be in violation of ALL the FRS rules and he has been 'busted' under the section 301, transmitting without a FCC license. His fines will reach over $40,000.

Do not think for even a few miliseconds that the FCC is not inforcing the rules........

FRS GMRS Saber I conversion legality

FRS GMRS Saber I conversion legality

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