All NEW Breakthrough Motorola Digital Radio: DTR550/650!!

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:17 pm

WOW! This thing is a mind blower! It is a 900 MHz ISM Frequency-Hopping Digital Spread Spectrum portable radio. Only $385! Looks like the start of something all new! Who knows where this radio may take us! Wonder how many hours before US Hams start snapping this baby up?!

Post by **alex** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:29 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:WOW! This thing is a mind blower! It is a 900 MHz ISM Frequency-Hopping Digital Spread Spectrum portable radio. Only $385! Looks like the start of something all new! Who knows where this radio may take us! Wonder how many hours before US Hams start snapping this baby up?!

Old news...

Saw them at Dayton in May...

Nice radios though - you can even buy a mini keyboard and send text messages over them....

-Alex

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:08 pm

They need to make something like that for swat use. Kind of like a civioan LEO version of a personal role radio. That could be really handy, especially if they adapted the data functions to report GPS positions like a Rino.

mancow

Post by **alex** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:08 pm

Dont' get me wrong --- i think it'll be a great product. The fact that you need a 16 digit hex code to talk to the next person or something nutzo like that is really good - you won't bump channels, and having them be spread spectrum... good stuff!!!

(just old news still!) I think they use VSELP though.

-Alex

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:34 pm

I knew about the Dayton announcement, but you can NOW ORDER them---and at $385, it's priced like a Radio Shack product, and it's spread spectrum to boot. Once the Hams get ahold of these gems, things might get a bit interesting.

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:45 pm

385 bucks for a "toy"..so it's DSS...BFD. My Panasonic cordless phone uses DSS, can talk handset to handset, it will (the base unit) even call your pager (assuming you still have one of those!) and enter numbers that call your home phone from caller ID and page you. I think it was all of a C-note, expandable to multi-handsets (up to 12). I've had it for 4 years.

What's so grand about 900MHz jobsite radios that use 15 year old VSCHLEP as an air interface. So you can send text messages...gee...my celphone does that- it was free with my VZW service plan. It works anywhere in the USA practically, uses a superior CDMA air interface (much more secure and effiicient than this piece of Mototrash you guys are talking about), and can call anyone in the world.

So what exactly does nearly 400 bills buy you? another fine piece of crap made in china toy that can send a signal about as far as a gnat can fart.
big deal.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:58 pm

Damn, who pissed on your corflakes this evening?

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:06 pm

I think it's funny that Larry criticized the non-P25 digital voice venture that Icom and Kenwood have embarked upon, but thinks these toys are hot :o.

Ain't rabid fanboyism great?

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:25 pm

Keep in mind that Hams have the 902 - 928 MHz band, so...UhYah!!!!

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:42 pm

I am sorry guys, I just don't get it. There is nothing spectacular about the DTR series. It is atypical new generation overpriced Mototrash. I honestly don't see jobsite radio users running for the hills throwing out their trusty old SV21's or Kenwood ProTalks to pay upwards of 400 bucks a pop for these turd muffins. If someone wants encryption capability they aren't going to be buying these POSes they will go for XTS etc. So again, as a low power jobsite radio what does it do to justify it's 400 dollar price point that a 150 dollar analog XTN or Kenwood ProTalk can't?

SMS is pretty useless on a jobsite don't you think? So it's digital spread spectrum...big deal. The user of these types of devices don't know/care what frequency, PL or whatever they are on. As long as they can talk to the guy a few hundred yards away and hear them clearly that is what matters...and jobsite radios are priced affordably. 400 dollars for a short-range radio is ludicrous.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:03 am

Wonder how long it will be before some enterprising Ham comes up with a DSS repeater? With $385 Motorola digital radios now available, that ought to knock the stuffin' out of Icom!

Post by **wavetar** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:17 pm

We sold 110 of them to a customer recently. They are neat little radios. The 650 can have up to 50 talkgroups, plus another 20 private contacts. They are not RSS/CPS programmable, it's completely keypad programmable...you need to purchase the optional plug-in keyboard to program things such as channel names, canned messages, etc. You then clone directly from radio to radio. You can also clone contacts over the air.

The physical build quality is actually quite good. My initial thought when looking at the brochures was 'pumped up FRS radio'. To a degree it's true, but it is Mil Spec'd.

The range on the units is actually borderline incredible! 2 watts at 900MHz seems to go through just about everything. What sold our customer on them was the fact they covered multiple floor buildings far better than their current 4 & 5-watt VHF & UHF radios...and also worked better than the 6 Kenwood UHF radios they had on demo from a competitor. They also liked the fact there was no licensing involved, and multiple channels weren't going to be a problem. The voice quality is also very good, to my & our customer's ears.

I'm not crazy about the fact it uses the same battery as certain Motorola cell phones, and also uses the same type of interface connector on the bottom which cause us no end of trouble in the cellular phones. Time will tell on those things.

All in all, they are good radios for a lot of applications, though they certainly aren't a 'mind blower' for me.

Todd

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:34 pm

If they weren't the best part of $400 each, and if I could limit it to using only 915-928MHz, I'd buy a couple just for the hell of it.

d119 · Post by **d119** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:04 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:Wonder how long it will be before some enterprising Ham comes up with a DSS repeater? With $385 Motorola digital radios now available, that ought to knock the stuffin' out of Icom!

I thought us hams were nothing but a bunch of fat greasy morons who jaw-jack on the radio all day, and are worthless? Or did I get the description wrong, Larry?

RABID FANBOYISM AHOY! *airhorn* *airhorn* (That was hot tvsjr... I laughed pretty hard when I read that)...

/rant mode off.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:18 pm

Sounds like a nice little radio. We ordered 2 pair to try out, so we shall see. Looks good as far as price/performance.

Does anyone know if the DSS license supports repeater ops?

Post by **wavetar** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:05 am

ASTROMODAT wrote:Sounds like a nice little radio. We ordered 2 pair to try out, so we shall see. Looks good as far as price/performance.

Does anyone know if the DSS license supports repeater ops?

I don't believe so...not sure how one would even go about creating an FHSS repeating system. Even if it did, these radios aren't set up for that. Radio-to-radio only.

Todd

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:14 am

At 1W on 900MHz, the repeater would have to be damn close anyway.

Splat · Post by **Splat** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:38 am

Sounds like a new Motorola cordless phone!

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:01 am

mr.syntrx wrote:At 1W on 900MHz, the repeater would have to be damn close anyway.

Well, that all depends on the repeater's HAAT. I operate on 1.2 GHz FM with an Icom handheld that runs 1.0 watt, and I get great coverage over a radius of 25+ miles, as the repeater is at 3,000 Ft. If I had a 900 Mhz repeater at my 1.2 Ghz repeater site, my range would be even better.

As far as someone hamstringing together a DSS repeater, given that folks here have claimed to back-to-back configure two ASTRO Spectra mobile radios to create a poor man's P25 repeater, I would think a similar approach for a Rube Goldberg sort of back-to-back lash-up of two DSS radios might also be possible.

Post by **wavetar** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:08 pm

I don't think you appreciate the differences involved with repeating a frequency hopping spread spectrum signal, and repeating a single frequency 4-level FSK signal.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:12 pm

Certainly DSS is by far-and-away more complex than FDMA. P25 FDMA (and Phase II TDMA) are almost trivial by comparison to DSS, which is essentially CDMA. However, notice that CDMA handsets are now priced the same as TDMA handsets, and GSM (which is nearly the same as TDMA, with a different implementation). However, CDMA cellular base stations are only slightly higher in price than TDMA base stations.

Keep in mind that there are tons of Electrical Engineers out there with many years of CDMA experience under their belts, so I wouldn't be totally skeptical of seeing a DSS repeater. ICOM or Kenwood could do this, if they saw a big enough market. However, with the advent of D-STAR, I doubt we'll see them go in the direction of CDMA. If anything, they would favor a Ham P25 implementation over a DSS scheme.

Only time will tell...

amds · Post by **amds** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:07 am

ASTROMODAT wrote: As far as someone hamstringing together a DSS repeater, given that folks here have claimed to back-to-back configure two ASTRO Spectra mobile radios to create a poor man's P25 repeater, I would think a similar approach for a Rube Goldberg sort of back-to-back lash-up of two DSS radios might also be possible.

Those were maxtracs.. No need to drive a BMW when a K-car will do.

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:09 am

Dude those have been out for over 9 months. They suck pretty bad. Basically a half-duplex PTT cordless phone. It tries to retain the XTS speaker grill (why larry spiked up so much.) Anyone klnow if it works with nextel handsets w/ 900 ISM SS side of the handset? AFP or whatever?

Later,
Steve

Nickb · Post by **Nickb** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:20 pm

DSS Repeater : Hey, hold that radio still while I retune that duplexer again ....

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:39 pm

Nick, CDMA systems do not use traditional duplexers as spread spectrum covers up to 20 MHz, or more, of spectrum. CDMA is nothing like traditional digital voice systems, such as FDMA P25 systems, that do use duplexers. If you'd like to learn about CDMA (e.g., such as the technology that these new Motorola DSS based radios are using) you can find a wealth of publications on CDMA by Bellcore. If you go on their web site, you can find a ton of technical literature on CDMA, all the way from basic primers through advanced research at the PhD EE level. Enjoy! (and they are very reasonably priced, considering what you get)

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:58 pm

I can make you a repeater with it as long as you can get them enough separation for them not to talk over each other. In fact I can easily make a cell type system with these using the internet as a backhaul. It would be simplex voting sort of. Kinda like a repeater but with the TX/RX sections separated. While one site RX's all other sites TX the audio w/ less than 10ms delay. I can have this set up in a week because I have these at my disposal from many of the dealers that sell my internet links.

Anybody wanna try it out between Ft. Lauderdale and ?

I have 1 end of the equation already, if you just want to see how it works and not spend your own money, you can talk to me from your PC to my DTR550/650. Larry I can even make them talk to your ASTRO gear back and forth for an on-site-to wide-area application.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:45 pm

CDMA (and TDMA) handset electronics is dirt cheap because they throw just about all the necessary electronics onto an ASIC, that can be manufactured by the million for a few bucks per unit.

With this economy of scale, any differences in "complexity" between systems employing TDM andd other access methods become completely irrelevant to equipment cost.

As for DSSS repeaters: What do you think a $50 IEEE802.11{a,b,g} access point in repeater mode or a DECT base station does?

Nickb · Post by **Nickb** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:03 am

ASTROMODAT wrote:Nick, CDMA systems do not use traditional duplexers as spread spectrum covers up to 20 MHz, or more, of spectrum. CDMA is nothing like traditional digital voice systems, such as FDMA P25 systems, that do use duplexers. If you'd like to learn about CDMA (e.g., such as the technology that these new Motorola DSS based radios are using) you can find a wealth of publications on CDMA by Bellcore. If you go on their web site, you can find a ton of technical literature on CDMA, all the way from basic primers through advanced research at the PhD EE level. Enjoy! (and they are very reasonably priced, considering what you get)

CDMA systems sure do use duplexers, otherwise the transmitter would block the receiver. (TDMA is another story).
The issue with these particular radios is that they are not even half-duplex. How would you keep the transmitter hops from landing right on top a receiver hop when both are in the same sub-band? (and desense does not go away just because it's CDMA; whether it's fixed frequency or moving doesn't matter)
Easiest way (without frequency or time separation) would be that the Tx and Rx would have to be separate sites for isolation (space separation).

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:26 am

That is exactly how I was going to do it. Make it a repeater, but with the TX and RX site a bit away from one another using my simple internet links and a few old PC's.

anybody what to give it a shot?

Steve

wkr518 · Post by **wkr518** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:45 pm

wavetar wrote:We sold 110 of them to a customer recently. They are neat little radios. The 650 can have up to 50 talkgroups, plus another 20 private contacts. They are not RSS/CPS programmable, it's completely keypad programmable...you need to purchase the optional plug-in keyboard to program things such as channel names, canned messages, etc. You then clone directly from radio to radio. You can also clone contacts over the air.

The physical build quality is actually quite good. My initial thought when looking at the brochures was 'pumped up FRS radio'. To a degree it's true, but it is Mil Spec'd.

The range on the units is actually borderline incredible! 2 watts at 900MHz seems to go through just about everything. What sold our customer on them was the fact they covered multiple floor buildings far better than their current 4 & 5-watt VHF & UHF radios...and also worked better than the 6 Kenwood UHF radios they had on demo from a competitor. They also liked the fact there was no licensing involved, and multiple channels weren't going to be a problem. The voice quality is also very good, to my & our customer's ears.

I'm not crazy about the fact it uses the same battery as certain Motorola cell phones, and also uses the same type of interface connector on the bottom which cause us no end of trouble in the cellular phones. Time will tell on those things.

All in all, they are good radios for a lot of applications, though they certainly aren't a 'mind blower' for me.

Todd

The economy charger and rapid chargers for the DTR are same as Nextel i530/730.The vehicle charger even works on them.DTR is good enoough for a company ( hotel,onsite,factory,nursing home) that does not want an FCC license.Having to scroll through the address book like a cell phone is a hassle though.And the USER UNAVAIL msg reminds me too much of my Nextel problems since unlimited NW DC came about.The DTR has its own market audience thats for sure.
110 units was a good sale Todd.
Wayne

wkr518 · Post by **wkr518** » Thu May 18, 2006 4:41 pm

Sorry to bring this old thread up again.Just got word that the antenna on the DTR has been made longer and there is now RSS via serial for the DTR.
Curious to see how these enhanced units will perform to original DTR handsets.
Wayne

Post by **wavetar** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:19 am

Yes, they are referred to as "generation 2" units. They now have a threaded antenna connector, to allow for the use of whatever 900MHz antenna you desire. The offerings from Motorola are the 3" stubby & 6" long models currently used by the MTX9250. Supposedly, range is increased by approx 20% with the stubby, and 40% with the long, in comparison to the "generation 1" built-in antenna.

The new units can also be programmed via CPS (same style as the CP200 series), as well as the keypad. There are numerous features which were added to the radio menus, such as a "reset all", and "delete all contacts". Also, scanning ability has been added, and I believe "all call" capability as well.

There were some mechanical fixes as well, such as a redesigned battery door locking mechanism, and redesigned holster.

You cannot "upgrade" a gen 1 unit to a gen 2. I do not know if Motorola will be offering some sort of trade-in plan if you wish to switch out your fleet.

Post by **escomm** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:24 am

Just ordered myself 4 sets of demos (1ea DTR550 and DTR650). They look promising, esp. the no license needed and secure communications included.

wkr518 · Post by **wkr518** » Mon May 22, 2006 2:38 pm

wavetar wrote:Yes, they are referred to as "generation 2" units. They now have a threaded antenna connector, to allow for the use of whatever 900MHz antenna you desire. The offerings from Motorola are the 3" stubby & 6" long models currently used by the MTX9250. Supposedly, range is increased by approx 20% with the stubby, and 40% with the long, in comparison to the "generation 1" built-in antenna.

The new units can also be programmed via CPS (same style as the CP200 series), as well as the keypad. There are numerous features which were added to the radio menus, such as a "reset all", and "delete all contacts". Also, scanning ability has been added, and I believe "all call" capability as well.

There were some mechanical fixes as well, such as a redesigned battery door locking mechanism, and redesigned holster.

You cannot "upgrade" a gen 1 unit to a gen 2. I do not know if Motorola will be offering some sort of trade-in plan if you wish to switch out your fleet.

"M" says NO on trade up or trade in on DTR 1 series to DTR Gen2 series.So I am stuck with 4 DTR demo kits which will collect dust.
Or maybe throw them up on Ebay.
If you get any Gen2 DTR please share your finding and results of playing with and using them with us here.
Thanks
Wayne

Post by **escomm** » Tue May 30, 2006 3:22 pm

Got my demos today, basically they are neat little nextel clones minus the telephone feature!

Post by **wavetar** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:20 am

escomm wrote:Got my demos today, basically they are neat little nextel clones minus the telephone feature!

Go try them in a couple of high-rises & let us know how they work. I find the in-building coverage to be incredible.

Todd

mikegilbert · Post by **mikegilbert** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:44 pm

Gen. 2 DTR's:

-Mike

Post by **escomm** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:09 pm

wavetar wrote:
escomm wrote:Got my demos today, basically they are neat little nextel clones minus the telephone feature!
Go try them in a couple of high-rises & let us know how they work. I find the in-building coverage to be incredible.

Todd

Unfortunately high rises are not a common sight in Southern California

Post by **wavetar** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:18 am

We have a Gen 2 demo kit on the way...it comes with the new CPS, and with the deal on them right now, it's $30 cheaper to get the demo kit (2 radios, chargers, CPS) than it is to buy the CPS on it's own! Talk about a no-brainer.

Todd

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:13 am

wavetar wrote:We have a Gen 2 demo kit on the way...it comes with the new CPS, and with the deal on them right now, it's $30 cheaper to get the demo kit (2 radios, chargers, CPS) than it is to buy the CPS on it's own! Talk about a no-brainer.

Todd

Do you have a kit # that can be ordered through MOL or do you have to call Motorola to order the demo kit? Is RVN5080A the part # for the CPS?

Thanks!

Post by **escomm** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:18 am

RESCUE161 wrote:
wavetar wrote:We have a Gen 2 demo kit on the way...it comes with the new CPS, and with the deal on them right now, it's $30 cheaper to get the demo kit (2 radios, chargers, CPS) than it is to buy the CPS on it's own! Talk about a no-brainer.

Todd
Do you have a kit # that can be ordered through MOL or do you have to call Motorola to order the demo kit? Is RVN5080A the part # for the CPS?

Thanks!

There is a form you can download under Marketing & Sales News and has to faxed in. I think it's available only to those on the indirect side (ie Dealers/MR/MSS etc)

I can't believe that the software costs more than the demos though. $310 for that seems a bit high

Post by **HumHead** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:29 pm

I just a couple of these in on demo, and I have to say that, for what they are, they are a neat little package. They actually have seem to have a much better feature set and form factor for the client in question than the HT1250s that they are currently using, and they can throw one of these in the trash for the cost of a depot trip for a 1250. The range and coverage are, as Todd has observed, remarkable. They haven't been able to find a dead spot yet, and they had quite a few running 4w at 460MHz.

Here's my question, since I only have two of these to play with: The documentation describes the unit as having 10 "channels", with 50 frequencies to hop among per channel. Will the units support multiple simultaneous conversations per channel, either by interleaving data, or by using different hoping sequences, or is it limited to one conversation per channel at a time?

What the client would like to do is set up a tiered grouping with a public group "all call" that can call all radios, then multiple private groups for individual departments, then individual private calls. Obviously, their being able to pull it off would depend on being able to have more than one conversation going on at once per channel frequency group.

If they are limited to one conversation per channel group, has anyone found any good work-arounds?

Thanks!

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:55 pm

I wonder how well the Gen 2 radios would work with dipoles instead of those stubbies...

Post by **wavetar** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:42 am

HumHead wrote: Here's my question, since I only have two of these to play with: The documentation describes the unit as having 10 "channels", with 50 frequencies to hop among per channel. Will the units support multiple simultaneous conversations per channel, either by interleaving data, or by using different hoping sequences, or is it limited to one conversation per channel at a time?

Thanks!

You can have multiple simultaneous conversations on any one "channel", that's the beauty of frequency hopping. I guess in theory if there were absolutely no interfering signals, you could have up to 50 conversations on any given channel. As it is, I've tested it with as many as 3...no problems at all. I'm sure it won't be an issue for you.

Todd

Post by **HumHead** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:27 pm

Thanks! Glad to hear that. Now I just have to sort out a minor issue with the scan function to see if I can actually make these do everything that they want.

Post by **escomm** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:45 pm

Oh yeah the software that comes with is technically only supposed to be used to program the demos, apparently /\/\ wants us to buy another copy if we want to use it for customer programming. Not like it matters though

All NEW Breakthrough Motorola Digital Radio: DTR550/650!!

All NEW Breakthrough Motorola Digital Radio: DTR550/650!!

Re: All NEW Breakthrough Motorola Digital Radio: DTR550/650!