Program both control and system channels?

[Alex663]

I'm just trying to verify that both control channels and system channels (frequencies) must be programmed into my "700_800 Control Channels" tab. Let me re-state that, the radio needs all known frequencies programmed for the trunking system because the control channels don't provide the system channel when the radio affiliates.

I just want to minimise typing all the frequencies for a site if I only need to type in the primary and seconday control frequency (yes, I'm lazy). Thanks

[RKG]

If your question is: when defining a trunking "system" for a SmartNet or SmartZone trunked radio, is it necessary to include the frequencies of the voice channels available for assignment by OSW, the answer is No. The trunking controller informs subscriber radios of the frequency to change to as part of the OSW itself. Indeed, this is one of the advantages of the Motorola system: a system operator can add or delete voice channels without having to reprogram all of his subscriber equipment.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but one can get into a bit of trouble programming a trunked radio without at least a working understanding of how SmartNet and SmartZone trunked systems operate. You might want to solicit the assistance of someone in the Commo Section of the system you're trying to program for.

[Alex663]

Thanks. Got that issue resolved. Now I'm wondering why my site alias isn't showing up when I'm connected to the site. I do get a signal strength, but I can't determine which tower I'm hitting. Where should I start looking?

A side note....The techs for the system aren't offering much assistance on programming details unless I want to pay them the programming costs. They are not use to individuals buying CPS and doing the work themselves, so I'm getting the cold shoulder from them.

[spectragod]

Thanks. Got that issue resolved. Now I'm wondering why my site alias isn't showing up when I'm connected to the site. I do get a signal strength, but I can't determine which tower I'm hitting. Where should I start looking?

A side note....The techs for the system aren't offering much assistance on programming details unless I want to pay them the programming costs. They are not use to individuals buying CPS and doing the work themselves, so I'm getting the cold shoulder from them.

Okay, if you are an individual, and the techs are not helping with programming, where did your system key originate from?

Why is it that you would expect them to show you how to program equipment for nothing, they paid for their equipment, software, training at Motorola etc., they have knowledge based on training and experience, and you think that they ought to tell you how do do their jobs (that they woked at for years possibly), for nothing??? WTFO

If you want site training, SZ, Smartnet, CPS training, Motorola offers those classes, you ought to try going, plan on 3K up per class with lodging, but it should be given to you for no charge, because.... ???????

Rant mode off, flame suit on.

SG

[Alex663]

The system key was given to me by the system administration because the agency I work for has legal access to the system and I have written authorization to be on it. However, the agency I work for does not pay for personal radio's to be programmed, So I am left those costs. Seeing how I already have a UHF XTS3000 and a legitimate copy of CPS for said radio I decided to save myself money and do the programming myself. I didn't realise I had to explain this to the board members just to get some help around here.

I didn't ask for free programming, however a little bit of help goes a long way considering I purchase all my equipment from the shop.....

I feel no need to agree/defend my view on what was said in previous posts, but alot of the users on batlabs sure are arrogant and I question why many people bother asking for help around here because they are often driven away by attitudes similar to yours.

No need for a flame war.
Have a good day.

PS. My site ID's do show up, but only for a few seconds when I press my site scan button. Is my thinking that the ID could always stay on, is my thinking incorrect?

[spectragod]

The system key was given to me by the system administration because the agency I work for has legal access to the system and I have written authorization to be on it. However, the agency I work for does not pay for personal radio's to be programmed, So I am left those costs. Seeing how I already have a UHF XTS3000 and a legitimate copy of CPS for said radio I decided to save myself money and do the programming myself. I didn't realise I had to explain this to the board members just to get some help around here.

I didn't ask for free programming, however a little bit of help goes a long way considering I purchase all my equipment from the shop.....

I feel no need to agree/defend my view on what was said in previous posts, but alot of the users on batlabs sure are arrogant and I question why many people bother asking for help around here because they are often driven away by attitudes similar to yours.

No need for a flame war.
Have a good day.

PS. My site ID's do show up, but only for a few seconds when I press my site scan button. Is my thinking that the ID could always stay on, is my thinking incorrect?

Given that there is no shortage of people trying to hack into trunk systems, and you low post count, that is why the response is what it was.

As far as the sys admin giving away sys keys to those who don't know how to program trunking into a radio is just plain stupid. A radio programmed incorrectly can lock a system up, perfect during any emergency situation..... right?

You didn't ask for free programming, you asked for their experince & time, which they should be compensated for. Say for instance you own a Ford, and you buy your repair parts from said Ford dealer, do they owe you an instructional class in installing those parts?

So there you have my arrogant attitude, if you don't know how to program a trunking radio, legit key or not, you just shouldn't do it. It is similar to buying surgery tools off Ebay, and then opening your own practice, just because you have the tools to do it.

Feel free to ask for help, there are many here that will do so, myself included, but trunking programming............. generally those in the know, don't need to ask how, hence the thought of a potential hacker.

SG

[Alex663]

While I may have a low post count, I have been around here for over 2 years. I'm here to learn, not to provide useless and arrogant information, so that one day I can pass that info on to someone else one day, after I have a significant amount of experience. I am not going to become a self appointed trunking system police officer like some others....

And that's all I have to say about that......

[RKG]

I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you might have (provided I know the answers), but I have neither the time nor the skills to offer a general primer in programming subscriber equipment for SmartNet and SmartZone systems. Unfortunately, it can get complicated pretty quickly.

And in this case, I know zilch about the Site ID function available in some radios, because we don't use it and discourage users from worrying about such details.

A bit of explanation:

First, let us define some terms. "System" refers to a unique combination of SysID and control channel frequencies. Some folks refer to this as a "zone," which has nothing to do with the "zone" concept of dividing channels in a portable radio into groups of 16.

In a SmartNet system, you have one "system", even if you have multiple simulcasting sites.

Some systems employ multiple "zones," each sharing the same SysID but with different control channels. If the SmartZone feature is not implemented, the user manually changes "systems" by changing channels. For programming, you define each "system" (as defined above) as a different "system" (as defined in the CPS), create one or more "personalities" for each "system" and then populate your channels accordingly. It is conventional wisdom not to mix different "systems" in the same zone (as defined in the CPS), just to preserve clarity, and it is a more or less inflexible rule of savvy programmers never to mix "systems" in a single scan list (a so-called "talkgroup" scan list) because of missed calls.

In any event, all the subscriber has to know is whether or not he is getting an "out of range" indication, and if not, what particular transmitting site he might be hearing is something we don't want him to worry about.

In a SmartZone system, you define a single "system" (CPS definition), which is defined by the common SysID and the sum of all of the control channels in all of the "systems" (as defined above) in the system. (Sorry about that sentence, but I don't know how to avoid it and it does, rather nicely, demonstrate the conceptual complexity of the subject.) You then rely on the radio to switch "systems" (as defined above) based on its ability to acquire and retain a data stream over a control channel. Note this inflexible rule: a trunked subscriber unit can "listen" to only one "system" (as defined above ) at a time.

There are two rubs with programming for SmartZone systems:

First, you'll notice the "SmartZone" screen or tab; it has a bunch of values for RSSI and K factors. The values to be put in here are derived by the system designers in the first instance, based on the type of base station equipment employed, some terrain and signal propigation factors, and system overlap. Sometimes (but not often enough) these values are adjusted based on experience. As a practical matter, if you want your radio to work, you should use the values that the system operator has selected for these parameters. There really is no way to guess or intuit what these values should be.

Second, you should understand that not all talkgroups in a SmartZone system are equal. Some will be available only to units affiliated on one "system" (as defined above); some will be available on all "systems" all the time, and some are available only if pulled in by a "visitor" affiliated on a "system" on which these talkgroups are not native. Since full-time and pull-in talkgroups can be quite consumptive of system resources, they are assigned with some care.

In a SmartZone system, we are pretty much in the same boat. So long as the user doesn't get "out of range" or "site trunking", he's in business and we don't expect him to know or care what particular "system" (as defined above) he has affiliated to. If he is getting "out of range" where he shouldn't, he will tell us and we will try to figure out what the problem is.

I decline to join the argument about whether professionals should be willing to share their professional knowledge with non-professionals gratis, but I hope that foregoing will illustrate, in a non-judgmental way, how complicated this subject can be.

[wavetar]

Oh for crissakes...

If you are on a SmartNet or SmartZone system, you will only see site numbers. You will only see 6-character site alias names if you are on a SmartZone OmniLink system. And of course, your radio programming reflects that set-up.

Todd

[Alex663]

Wavetar....
Becaues I setup Site Alias, my radio shows the name I defined with the site number not just the site number. However the alias only shows up when I tap the site scan button. I had expected the the ID to stay on all the time, but I guess that's not possible. I also wanted to be able to select a site but haven't figured that out (if it's even possible)

The Site ID matters a little to me as a few units that I talk to on the system do not have access to all the sites, so I have to make sure I'm on a site they can access before making a private call.

RKG, I realize how most people wouldn't need to worry about what site they are on, but it's something I would like for reasons stated above. I do appreciate your comments, they made for good reading are informative. Again, thanks.....

[wavetar]

Wavetar....
Becaues I setup Site Alias, my radio shows the name I defined with the site number not just the site number. However the alias only shows up when I tap the site scan button. I had expected the the ID to stay on all the time, but I guess that's not possible. I also wanted to be able to select a site but haven't figured that out (if it's even possible)
....

Ah yes, if you use the site alias feature, it will show whatever site name you have programmed in the table in non-OmniLink systems. You are correct, it will only show the site for a few seconds, it does not remain on the screen. There is no means to make it do so either. You should be able to force it to a different site by holding in the 'site' button for a second or so. The screen should show 'scanning' for a second or so, then it reverts back to the talkgroup name. You have to tap the 'site' button again to verify if it did indeed find a different site to sit on.

Todd

[Alex663]

So far what you said is what I have already discoverd. I was hoping I could manually select a site instead of hitting my site scan button 8-9 times before it hits the site I need I guess sometimes I expect or ask for too much.....

On another issue..... Has anyone found a way to have more than 8 site aliases per trunking system? I'm hitting 13 different towers between work and home (a 7mile/10 minute drive), and can't keep track of all those numbers. Maybe it's just my old age kicking in.... Suprisingly they all show an RSSI of 70-87

Thanks

[Pj]

Need to keep the eye's on the road, and not the radio

Is there an issue that you need to know what your hitting all the time, or just playing?

[Alex663]

I hit alot of traffic lights on the way home

Some of it is playing, some of it is needing to be on 1 specific tower to stay in contact with a few people from another agency. On this system you pay to have access to a certain # of towers, their agency isn't on all the towers mines is. Because we share access on 1 peticular site I just need to make sure my radio is on that site before contacting them.

Another thing is just testing the system.... Several agencies I come in contact with on a daily business ask how the coverage is, wanting to know if it's worth making the switch. I'm giving it a good test myself before I start providing my opinions to them.....

[wavetar]

So far what you said is what I have already discoverd. I was hoping I could manually select a site instead of hitting my site scan button 8-9 times before it hits the site I need I guess sometimes I expect or ask for too much....
Thanks

You could create a different system with just a single control channel (plus it's back-up, if the freq is known) for each tower you want to monitor. Create a different zone for each system & duplicate the talkgroups in each one. This won't be the answer if your radio is already loaded with a ton of talkgroups, but it would work well otherwise.

Todd

[Alex663]

Todd, I'm going to give that a shot seeing that I dont have that many talkgroups. One thing though, Ive noticed my radio connects to sites that I don't have the control channels programmed in, so it may not work.... Altough I noticed there is a tab where I can set the preference of the site to connect to (or set it to never). Maybe I'll explore that route. Either way, thanks for the idea.....it'll get me going somewhere.

Alex

[wavetar]

Todd, I'm going to give that a shot seeing that I dont have that many talkgroups. One thing though, Ive noticed my radio connects to sites that I don't have the control channels programmed in, so it may not work....

Alex

I believe if you check, you probably have the radio set to "full spectrum scan", which could possibly cause it to find sites that it doesn't have the control channels programmed into it's list for. The other possibility is the site is working on it's back-up frequency which could be the same as another CC in it's list. Otherwise, if the radio does not have the CC programmed in it's list, there's no way it can work on that particular site.

I noticed there is a tab where I can set the preference of the site to connect to (or set it to never). Maybe I'll explore that route. Either way, thanks for the idea.....it'll get me going somewhere.

Alex

You can try it, but I haven't found the 'preference' feature to be effective at all. That's why I've had to do the 'single CC' programming to do what you want.

Todd