XTL 5000 encripted mute question

ScannerDan · Post by **ScannerDan** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:58 pm

I’ve got a Motorola XTL5000 installed in my K-9 vehicle with numerous mutual-aid frequencies programmed into it. My question is how do I get it to mute on encrypted comm’s on a APCO 25 uhf frequency? Both my Astro Saber and XTS3000 will only unmute when proper code is detected. When I check for this feature in CPS I couldn’t find it. It’s real annoying to hear encrypted comm’s.
Thanks

Dan..

Post by **akardam** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:12 pm

Proper Code Detect is located on the Secure tab in both the Conventional Personality and Trunking Personality pages.

ScannerDan · Post by **ScannerDan** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:36 pm

akardam wrote:Proper Code Detect is located on the Secure tab in both the Conventional Personality and Trunking Personality pages.

This box is gray and view only in personality 2 which is for my apco 25 stuff. What do I need to do to make this available?

The help file reads as follows: When the Secure Configuration, Secure Equipped field is enabled, and when the Rx Voice/Signal Type field is set to “Non-ASTRO”, and when Secure Configuration, Hardware is the selected Secure Type.

So does this mean that I have to deal with hearing encrypted transmissions??

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:24 pm

I noticed that too. I looked earlier to verify, but didn't see an easy solution. I guess the logical, but most likely "not going to happen" solution would be to:
1) load your radio with the propper key
2) lock out or remove that talk group/channel from your listening pleasure
3) Have the users using encryption move their operations to another channel.
4) Monitor said channel on a Pro-96 as it will block an encrypted communications.
5) Take lessons from "skeygen" on rr.com as he seems to know a lot about decrypting encrypted audio from radios (although he never produced any evidence of such...lol) This one falls under the DEFINITELY NOT going to happen...lol

"Number 5" is taken from this thread.

Post by **xmo** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:05 pm

P25 encryption uses a KID or LID [depending on whether you are using PID or CKR].

This ID is transmitted along with the encrypted voice in the P25 embedded data.

If your radio is receiving an encrypted transmission and the KID [or LID] matches a KID or LID that you have programmed - then your radio will unmute.

If the actual key in your radio is the same as the one in the sending radio - then you will get decrypted voice - otherwise - you will get the gollywobbles.

Also, if the transmitted KID does not match one in your radio - it won't unmute - even if you have the correct secure key.

Easy fix for your problem - change your KID [or LID]

This can be a real issue for cross system interoperability where nobody thought about it and you have two systems with zillions of radios - each with a different key but the same KID [0001 - how original].

MattSR · Post by **MattSR** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:33 pm

xmo wrote:P25 encryption uses a KID or LID [depending on whether you are using PID or CKR].

This ID is transmitted along with the encrypted voice in the P25 embedded data.

If your radio is receiving an encrypted transmission and the KID [or LID] matches a KID or LID that you have programmed - then your radio will unmute.

If the actual key in your radio is the same as the one in the sending radio - then you will get decrypted voice - otherwise - you will get the gollywobbles.

Also, if the transmitted KID does not match one in your radio - it won't unmute - even if you have the correct secure key.

Easy fix for your problem - change your KID [or LID]

This can be a real issue for cross system interoperability where nobody thought about it and you have two systems with zillions of radios - each with a different key but the same KID [0001 - how original].

Yes, this is all spot on however there is one other thing that can cause this - PL defeat... PL default forces the radio to ignore the KID/LID and unmute regards, also certain encryption algorithms ignore the KID..

ScannerDan · Post by **ScannerDan** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:41 pm

MattSR wrote:
xmo wrote:P25 encryption uses a KID or LID [depending on whether you are using PID or CKR].

This ID is transmitted along with the encrypted voice in the P25 embedded data.

If your radio is receiving an encrypted transmission and the KID [or LID] matches a KID or LID that you have programmed - then your radio will unmute.

If the actual key in your radio is the same as the one in the sending radio - then you will get decrypted voice - otherwise - you will get the gollywobbles.

Also, if the transmitted KID does not match one in your radio - it won't unmute - even if you have the correct secure key.

Easy fix for your problem - change your KID [or LID]

This can be a real issue for cross system interoperability where nobody thought about it and you have two systems with zillions of radios - each with a different key but the same KID [0001 - how original].
Yes, this is all spot on however there is one other thing that can cause this - PL defeat... PL default forces the radio to ignore the KID/LID and unmute regards, also certain encryption algorithms ignore the KID..

But APCO 25 dosn't use PL it has a NAC and were do I find "KID or LID" in CPS??

MattSR · Post by **MattSR** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:05 pm

PL defeat will defeat PL, DCS, NAC and KID/LID.

KID is only stored in keyloader/secure module... its not in CPS anywhere.

Does your radio have secure installed and enabled or not?

Post by **xmo** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:23 pm

"...KID is only stored in keyloader/secure module... its not in CPS anywhere..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True for single key, for multi-key, you do put these in the radio with the CPS.

MattSR · Post by **MattSR** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:26 pm

Umm not you dont...

You are confusing CKR with KID.

I suggest you refer to the CPS manual.

CKR is Common Key Reference.. It simply references a slot. it has nothing to do with LID or KID. For example, when you OTAR or load new keys with a keyloader, the CKR numbe stays the same, and that slot inherits the new KID/LID.

Hope this explains it clearly enough.

Cheers,
Matt

5-sides · Post by **5-sides** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:54 am

Let me give it a whack.

In multi-key, you can assign a key to a slot, say slot 1 has key "ACE1" and slot 2 has key "A1B1". (ACE1 and A1B1 being the key ID#) [Thanks Matt]

If your version of "ACE1" uses 0123456789ABCDEF..... as its algorithm but some other unit has a key numbered "ACE1" with alogorithm FDECBA9876543210.... then you will get the alien speak.

If the other unit is using "6A5C" as its key, then even if the algorithm is the same as yours (0123456..), you should hear silence.

Basically, the Tx radio sends a message saying "use key #x to decrypt the following", and the Rx radio searches its keylist for number x, then applies the math to try and decrypt. If the two match, all is well.

When sending, you program the radio (or allow the operator to select) to use the key in a particular slot for a particular talkgroup/personality.

On top of all that, you also get to name the keys in the individual radio, so anytime "ACE1" is used, your radio could display "Vice" or "IA" or "Secure 1" or whatever. I often name all of my keys "encrypted", as my users are often confused by anything more elaborate.

The CKR value is used in the KVL as an organizer of sorts. It separates your traffic keys from your KEK's, among other things. One more term to throw into the mix.

Basically, it boils down to the key ID and the actual hex string. If those two are the same, you are good. If the Id's match but not the hex strings, you might get the alien-talk. If the Id's are different, you should not hear anything.

MattSR · Post by **MattSR** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:13 am

Uhh no.

Your idea of what a CKR is, is actually what the KID/LID does.

The CKR number is not transmitted over the air at all..... It only used between the KVL and MR.

Matt.

5-sides · Post by **5-sides** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:20 am

Ahh, yes, you are right.

I forgot that little nugget. I got jammed up between key Id, CKR, and Key number.

One more layer in the murass.

I will edit my post, thanks.

ard099 · Post by **ard099** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:41 pm

Is the personality programmed for mixed mode on the rx side? You might need to change that to astro, or make sure the radio isn't in th monitor mode.

ScannerDan · Post by **ScannerDan** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:19 am

ard099 wrote:Is the personality programmed for mixed mode on the rx side? You might need to change that to astro, or make sure the radio isn't in th monitor mode.

It's programmed as a full ASTRO personality.. =)

MattSR · Post by **MattSR** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:42 pm

MattSR wrote:Does your radio have secure installed and enabled or not?

ScannerDan · Post by **ScannerDan** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:32 pm

MattSR wrote:
MattSR wrote:Does your radio have secure installed and enabled or not?

Secure enabled and installed

ScannerDan · Post by **ScannerDan** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:43 pm

ScannerDan wrote:I’ve got a Motorola XTL5000 installed in my K-9 vehicle with numerous mutual-aid frequencies programmed into it. My question is how do I get it to mute on encrypted comm’s on a APCO 25 UHF frequency? Both my Astro Saber and XTS3000 will only unmute when proper code is detected. When I check for this feature in CPS I couldn't’t find it. It’s real annoying to hear encrypted comm’s.
Thanks

Dan..

Duh, i figured it out. It was right in front of me that I didn't even see it till now. Turn monitor off and all coded transmissions are muted! Thanks to hall who helped.

XTL 5000 encripted mute question

XTL 5000 encripted mute question

Re: XTL 5000 encrypted mute question