Let's say you could design FPP features for a radio...

[escomm]

What features would you be looking for?

Let's assume for the sake of conversation that you've got the MotoTRBO line to use as your sandbox.

[AEC]

I would think the logical answer to your question would be: Everything necessary to effect proper and immediate usage of the radio, such as frequencies, PL/DPL codes, offsets, scanning and phone dialing(live).

Not to mention power out on a per channel/mode basis.

let's throw in display readout and menus on the display so one can scroll the programmed options and choose the ones used most often, and then have those show on the display, such as many do now, but only the 'new' settings can be changed on the fly as needs change as well.

Thant's it in my nut shell....as cracked as it is, it's still home to the gray matter!

[jnglmassiv]

I would think the logical answer to your question would be: Everything necessary to effect proper and immediate usage of the radio, such as frequencies, PL/DPL codes, offsets, scanning and phone dialing(live).

Ya, why exclude anything?

[escomm]

how about zone/talkgroup creation on the fly, select/private call, change mdc/ptt id, change signaling, alias list

also two levels of FPP-- basic and advanced, with the ability to set in cps what features can be accessed by each user?

also how about fpp for mobiles?

would these be useful?

[Victor Xray]

+1 vote for mobile FPP. Even with features as basic as a JT1000 it would be helpful in the field when you're traveling.

[wavetar]

how about zone/talkgroup creation on the fly, select/private call, change mdc/ptt id, change signaling, alias list

also two levels of FPP-- basic and advanced, with the ability to set in cps what features can be accessed by each user?

So you basically want CPS...without CPS. I'd ask Cowthief what he has in his Spectra & go from there...

[escomm]

Basically I want some feedback to take to the mototrbo product planner. I was being obtuse for a reason. I'd expect more class from a board administrator.

[motorola_otaku]

My $0.02 (and bear in mind, I have never laid hands on a TRBO radio):

Basic mode: programs like a JT1000, with the addition of enabling/disabling scan per channel and the ability to "lock out" un-configured channels. Radio gets hard-limited to a fixed number of zones and channels per zone with one scan list per zone.

Advanced/Expert mode: Complete modification of the radio's programmable parameters, set up in a menu architecture similar to the one used in the current generation of Uniden scanners (i.e. you build systems and zones, then add channels to them.) Do away with that personality/channel crap; when you enter the channel programming menu, you get all of the per-channel options in one menu with advanced stuff grouped into sub-menus if necessary. If ANI signalling or conventional-mode digital voice are going to be available, then do away with the "systems" for those as well and group their respective options into sub-menus under the per-channel menu. Makes things much more intuitive and allows for greater flexibility.

Both: Switch to a continuous rotary knob? It would allow for greater flexibility in "Expert" mode in regards to zone/system size.


Some other things to think about:
-Is FPP capability at any level going to come at the exclusion of TRBO digital capability, from either customer programming or FLASH options?
-Think for a minute where your target customer bases are going to be for FPP capability, regardless of platform:

• Hams/hobbyists
• Radio technicians
• Government/military
• Wildland firefighting organizations

With particular regard to the 4th and possibly the 3rd groups, if P25 is never going to be an option on the TRBO platform then they can't use it.. and I'm sure they would appreciate a lower-cost alternative to the XTS line.


edit: As far as the mobile platform goes, duplicate the portable architecture with the addition of menu navigation and alphanumeric digit entry through the microphone keypad.

[wavetar]

Basically I want some feedback to take to the mototrbo product planner. I was being obtuse for a reason. I'd expect more class from a board administrator.

Sorry, I wan't poking fun. I just think of cowthief everytime I see "FPP". I do think there should be a limit to what one can do from the keypad, even with an 'advanced' setting. You need to keep in mind the level of radio savvy of the average user, and the possibility they could get themselves to the point of losing comms until someone can come along & fix whatever they've done.

[escomm]

Some other things to think about:
-Is FPP capability at any level going to come at the exclusion of TRBO digital capability, from either customer programming or FLASH options?

I would certainly hope not. It's SDR so sky is the limit.

-Think for a minute where your target customer bases are going to be for FPP capability, regardless of platform:

• Hams/hobbyists

Won't tell Motorola this, even though there are hams that have set up TRBO and done some pretty interesting things with it. Motorola hates hams. Last ham-friendly line was Radius, sadly.

[*]Radio technicians

Yes, exactly, and this was my thinking for the dual access levels. I'd love to be able to temporarily add a conventional channel for field testing, without having to get the laptop out. I don't know that I'd use a TRBO portable for this, given the poor analog audio quality, but at some point my 1550 will die and FPP in the field will be a necessity.

[*]Government/military

I'm sure Motorola would tell these guys they need to buy XTS/XTL5000s

[*]Wildland firefighting organizations[/list]

This is the big one. The HT1550XLS is real popular among wildland FFs, so Motorola is certainly going to be developing an FPP portable to replace the HT1550. How much longer the 1550 will be available is anyone's guess, I'd peg it at less than a year.

With particular regard to the 4th and possibly the 3rd groups, if P25 is never going to be an option on the TRBO platform then they can't use it.. and I'm sure they would appreciate a lower-cost alternative to the XTS line.

I would hope that no FF unit ever uses P25 for any purpose at all, or any digital modulation for that matter. But yes, cost is a huge factor-- you can get 5 TRBO portables for the price of one XTS..

edit: As far as the mobile platform goes, duplicate the portable architecture with the addition of menu navigation and alphanumeric digit entry through the microphone keypad.

My thoughts exactly.

Another idea passed around was a PDA-style programmer for mobiles (though I can't see why it wouldn't work with portables as well). I mentioned to them that there had been some iterations of PDAs that folks had managed to get CPS running on, but that it was hit or miss depending on the OS and data connections on the PDA.

[escomm]

You need to keep in mind the level of radio savvy of the average user, and the possibility they could get themselves to the point of losing comms until someone can come along & fix whatever they've done.

How is it any different than them removing batteries, using wrong antennas, or disconnecting wires? End user operation is always guided by training and policy enforcement; and if someone wants to screw around with a radio, they are going to find a way.

The vast majority of customers that ask for FPP know what it is already, and generally understand the obligations that come with having such capability, but at the same time any Joe Schmo can call up Motorola and enter into the license agreement and pay $300 for a license and $200 for a cable. Up until recently, even putting a password on the radio had little effect on those who were determined.

[escomm]

Also, anyone's thoughts on dongle vs. special battery for a portable?

And using an enhanced mic as the dongle for the mobile, instead of a dongle for the accessory connector?

[motorola_otaku]

• Wildland firefighting organizations

This is the big one. The HT1550XLS is real popular among wildland FFs, so Motorola is certainly going to be developing an FPP portable to replace the HT1550. How much longer the 1550 will be available is anyone's guess, I'd peg it at less than a year.

With particular regard to the 4th and possibly the 3rd groups, if P25 is never going to be an option on the TRBO platform then they can't use it.. and I'm sure they would appreciate a lower-cost alternative to the XTS line.

I would hope that no FF unit ever uses P25 for any purpose at all, or any digital modulation for that matter. But yes, cost is a huge factor-- you can get 5 TRBO portables for the price of one XTS..

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think P25 capability is now a requirement for radios used in wildland firefighting, either on the grant money level or as an actual field-use requirement.

Personally, I'm not real keen on the idea of a PDA programmer, since that's just one more thing to have to keep up with.. UNLESS it was developed to the point where it could program multiple radios across multiple platforms. But for the purposes of this discussion, I'd rather see everything done through the controls on the radio itself. And personal preference again: I'd go for a dongle over a battery (smaller, hopefully cheaper, and easier to replicate.. although you don't have to mention that )

[fire_master_21]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think P25 capability is now a requirement for radios used in wildland firefighting, either on the grant money level or as an actual field-use requirement.

You are correct. If going for a grant I have yet to see one that states P25 is an option. As far as acutal field requirement use, I have not come across many Fed's with a P25 radio on a wildland fire ground.

[wavetar]

How is it any different than them removing batteries, using wrong antennas, or disconnecting wires? End user operation is always guided by training and policy enforcement; and if someone wants to screw around with a radio, they are going to find a way.

All the above require a conscious effort to do so...much different than being lost in a labyrinth of menu options. Just look at the DTR series, which have similar options to the TRBO radios. Those were 100% field programmable, with an optional qwerty keyboard no less! Yet anyone who's ever had to deal with programming anything beyond basic info into them breathed a huge sigh of relief when CPS was introduced for the Gen 2 units. I like FPP, we use an HT1550XLS with FPP battery as a service radio, and it's great, but don't see a need for the average wildfire fighter to do much more than it can. Being able to change the alpha tags if you really wanted to would be nice.

[radioinstl]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think P25 capability is now a requirement for radios used in wildland firefighting, either on the grant money level or as an actual field-use requirement.

You are correct. If going for a grant I have yet to see one that states P25 is an option. As far as acutal field requirement use, I have not come across many Fed's with a P25 radio on a wildland fire ground.

Every radio in the current Bosie Cache is a P25 radio and only P25 radios are on the lists for DOI / NWFCG appoved list

[Grog]

Every radio in the current Bosie Cache is a P25 radio and only P25 radios are on the lists for DOI / NWFCG appoved list

Do they actually use pure P25 when all users on an "event" have P25 gear or is it just used as needed with usual use on analog?

[Jason]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think P25 capability is now a requirement for radios used in wildland firefighting, either on the grant money level or as an actual field-use requirement.

You are correct. If going for a grant I have yet to see one that states P25 is an option. As far as acutal field requirement use, I have not come across many Fed's with a P25 radio on a wildland fire ground.

Every radio in the current Bosie Cache is a P25 radio and only P25 radios are on the lists for DOI / NWFCG appoved list

Thats very true. I'd say on a federal fire a 1550 would not likely be approved, contractors included.

[mancow]

I would like to see a menu system similar to the one in the new Uniden scanners. That way you could store trunking and conventional systems and call them up when needed.

[3-SAM-12]

Fire Approved Radios (P25)

January 26, 2005

The term “Fire Approved” refers to a digital radio meeting additional requirements beyond those required for inclusion into the DOI radio contract. The USFS is currently using DOI’s radio contract for P25 radio equipment purchases. Fire testing ensures the radio has met a more rigorous testing regimen to survive field conditions. Several radios have contract deficiencies. Whomever is purchasing radios must review the deficiency list to ensure a specific deficiency will not effect their intended operations. Currently, only portables and aviation radios are fire approved by NIFC.

Portable radio fire requirements include:

Front Keyboard Programmability
Radio to Radio Cloning Capability
AA Battery Clamshell
Rotary Switch Channel Knob
Keypad
Priority Channel Scan
Leather Case
Tone Pick List

Fire Approved P25 Portable Radios
Thales Racal 25
EF Johnson 5100
Motorola XTS5000
Datron Guardian
Relm BK DPH

http://www.fireradios.net/

Chris

SBFD