RIB and Cable advice for Newbie

[jantman]

I'm not really a radio guy (some ham experience, but a computer systems programmer by trade). I'm a volunteer EMT, and sort of fell into the role of maintaining our computers and radios. I've done quite a bit of M pager programming, but never any radio work (aside from an old Spectra with borrowed laptop/RSS/RIB). Our M dealer is currently charging well over $100 - something like $140 - to program radios. Our new HT1250's (VHF) are conventional mode, 12 channels programmed, and the programming cost for the lot of 8 new radios was more than buying another radio. Our organization and the local FD has toyed with the idea of buying the cables, RIB, and RSS and doing it ourselves.

I'm waiting to hear back from M with an RSS quote and info on what I have to do to purchase the software (also asked for a quote from a local dealer).

Our radios are all MCS2000, HT1250 and a few CDM1250's.

Any suggestions on RIB and cables? I know there are a few companies that make aftermarket hardware, which I assume will be considerably less expensive that Motorola original. Any thoughts on quality, or recommendations of a brand and model for these radios?

Also - does the relevant RSS for these models (I believe HVN9025 and RVN4175N/RVN4113), in the latest version, still require a DOS-based computer, or will these run under Windows (presumably on a new laptop with a USB->serial converter)?

Thanks for any advice. Sorry if some of my questions are a bit basic, but the Newbie page here seems quite dated, and I'm quite new to the M programming world (and, for that matter, software that's so difficult to get).

-Jason

[jantman]

Also - I don't know how this works, but do M dealers have set territory? Do their prices vary, or are they always set by M? In other words, if I'm looking to buy RSS, do I just go to the closest dealer (or direct to M) or can I shop around for the best price?

[Jim202]

First of all unless your background includes adjusting radios with a service monitor and you have the test
equipment, your better off not trying to play with the radios. It is easy to mess up the programming.
Like put it on a channel you don't belong on or didn't intend to be on. Without a service monitor,
you can't be sure if the changes you made are correct. Without a power meter, you can't be sure
the transmit power is where it belongs.

Second, you can only get the programming software (RSS) or (CPS) from Motorola it self. They will
make you fill out a form in order to get the software license before they will even sell it. Dealers
can not sell the programming software.

Third, you will need the different cables to go from each type of radio to the computer or to a RIB.
The RIB is not needed for the newer radios, as the cables are mostly the RIB less type. Your
MCS2000 will use the RIB and need a slow computer running a true DOS and not inside Windows
using a DOS window. You need to boot the computer right into DOS. The CDM is a Windows
program that uses a RIB less cable. You could make your own cables or buy them off od Ebay.
I will tell you though, that the MCS2000 is very voltage level sensitive. It doesn't like to work
on many of the off brand devices that you can find on Ebay. The regular Motorola RIB is almost
a requirement for this radio.

As for the dealer territory, that is a matter of how protective each dealership is of their area. I know
of several regions around the country where multiple Motorola shops exist. Sometimes this comes
from one Motorola shop buying out an independent shop. Sometimes it just happens. The bottom
line is how the regional Motorola service manager deals with it.

Hope this provides some clues as to what your looking at.

Jim

Also - I don't know how this works, but do M dealers have set territory? Do their prices vary, or are they always set by M? In other words, if I'm looking to buy RSS, do I just go to the closest dealer (or direct to M) or can I shop around for the best price?

[jantman]

Jim, thanks for the information about how to (legally) obtain the RSS. I knew that Motorola guarded it like Fort Knox, but I didn't know they won't even let their (authorized) dealers sell it. Being a software guy, it makes me cringe sometimes what companies will go through to keep a lid on a bunch of 1s and 0s that, the odds are, is so specialized few people would want it or know what to do with it anyway.

First of all unless your background includes adjusting radios with a service monitor and you have the test
equipment, your better off not trying to play with the radios. It is easy to mess up the programming. Like put it on a channel you don't belong on or didn't intend to be on. Without a service monitor, you can't be sure if the changes you made are correct. Without a power meter, you can't be sure the transmit power is where it belongs.

Perhaps I'm really missing something here... I've owned and programmed both Icom and Vertex radios, and never needed anything other than the programming software. When our Motorola guy comes out and re-programs the radios in our trucks, he doesn't bring a damn thing other than the laptop and RIB and cable. Granted, I'm really only concerned with adding and deleting channels, not reflashing or doing any other major changes that could be destructive to other settings. As far as "a channel you don't belong on"... as in... typing the number in wrong in RSS?

I really appreciate your advice, but I'm slightly confused about whether this is really such a complicated process (compared to Vertex and Icom), or whether you're trying to avert the potential disaster of a total moron programming important radios. If it's the latter, I've been involved with public safety in our town for six years, and know our frequency plan by heart, and figured out the Minitor V PPS without any documentation or instruction. I'm confident I can handle adding a channel to a few radios.

[akardam]

Perhaps I'm really missing something here... I've owned and programmed both Icom and Vertex radios, and never needed anything other than the programming software. When our Motorola guy comes out and re-programs the radios in our trucks, he doesn't bring a damn thing other than the laptop and RIB and cable. Granted, I'm really only concerned with adding and deleting channels, not reflashing or doing any other major changes that could be destructive to other settings. As far as "a channel you don't belong on"... as in... typing the number in wrong in RSS?

I really appreciate your advice, but I'm slightly confused about whether this is really such a complicated process (compared to Vertex and Icom), or whether you're trying to avert the potential disaster of a total moron programming important radios. If it's the latter, I've been involved with public safety in our town for six years, and know our frequency plan by heart, and figured out the Minitor V PPS without any documentation or instruction. I'm confident I can handle adding a channel to a few radios.

It's not. He's overblowing it. Yes, it's a simple as having your computer, the right software and the right cables. Other than making a typo in frequency (which you'd soon enough discover because you wouldn't recieve transmissions and/or other people wouldn't recieve yours), the programming software should not let you make a change that would cause the radio to operate improperly.

That's not to say that you shouldn't have the radios checked every once in a while by a shop to make sure that they are performing in spec. For that, one would need access to RF test equipment, such as a service monitor, wattmeter, etc. But, for day to day programming, no, you won't need access to that kind of equipment nor the knowledge of how to use it.

All the radios listed above have current versions of CPS, the windows-based programming software. Other than making sure you hav a computer with a serial port (or a USB or PCMCIA to serial adapter), you should be good to go. Create your business account with Motorola, sign the license agreement, and start ordering software and cables. I would strongly suggest you stay with OEM cables and RIB all the way, especially as these radios are used in a public safety service.

[Jim202]

I am not trying to make it sound overly complicated. Problem today with a good number of the radio shops and
the techs they have, is that they have become plug and play with the radios and programming. If you just whip
out your ever ready laptop and cables, plug into the radio and hit some keys, you think that it's done. How does
the tech know the radio is even working correctly? How does the tech know the radio isn't off frequency? How
does the radio tech know the radio has a good receiver or transmitter? Without connecting a service monitor
up to the radio, your just rolling the dice that the radio is performing correctly.

This is the point I am trying to make. If you don't test the radio after programming it, how can you be sure
the changes made are correct?

You could probably win a couple of steak dinners on betting the radio tech won't break out the service monitor
these days. In most cases they just don't care. They figure that if the radio isn't working right, they will get
a phone call and be able to make another service call to play with the radio again. That is not my idea of the
way to keep customers happy. It doesn't take but a couple of minutes to run the radio through a few checks
and know it is working the way it should.

Over the years I have made a good living on servicing radios and having customers come to me for service.
Never had to go looking for new customers. They always managed to see the way of their old radio shop
and didn't like the way they were treated in the past.

Call it being overly complicated, I don't think so. I just think the customer should get what they paid for. A
service call is just that. Your there to service the radio and keep the customer happy. It costs too much to
have to make a free return call for some simple thing you didn't do when you were there the first time. Yup,
many of a radio shops today will charge a customer for their sloppy work on a radio. But remember, that
customer does have a choice on just how many times they will put up with poor service work or sloppy repairs.

Jim

[jantman]

I just think the customer should get what they paid for.

Agreed. Our last service call from the local shop charged something on the order of $150 per radio to ADD ONE CHANNEL in three mobiles. No service monitor, no wattmeter, just a laptop, about eight minutes, and $450.

I don't intend on going into the service business. The idea is for me to do programming for the town's radios, and maybe some local volunteers on the side, that's it. I already have a day job that I enjoy (and doesn't require an investment in a $4000 service monitor). As I said, I'm not familiar with Motorola transceivers, but I don't see how reading a codeplug, adding a channel, and then writing it would change alignment, output power, whatever. If you're talking about detecting pre-existing problems... I have no intentions of doing any more than programming... the radios should still be checked out by the techs on a regular basis.

Thanks for all the advice. I've contacted Motorola and am waiting to hear back on a business account and license agreements. After that... hopefully their prices won't be so outrageous that I scrap the whole project!

[ducomm]

I have been programming M radio's for a couple of years now and this is what I use. I have access to a real M RIB at work but I just use a aftermarket RIB from www.radiostew.com (more on that later). The RIB works first time every time, never recieved an error. as for the computer I use a Toshiba P III laptop running Windows 98se (Still has pure dos) i bought off Ebay for around $75. Slow enought for the old radios (Ht1000, Spectra) Fast enought for the new stuff (CDM's HT1250's ect.) You dont need to waste your money on a 486 computer for the radios you need to program. As for the cables, I bought used M OEM cables from Ebay when other people got rid of there old programming hardware. If you buy a RIB from where I told you I got mine, You don't need to buy a cable for your CDM's, The RIB has a RJ45 plug on it where you can just plug any Ethernet cable from the radio mic jack to the RIB. also works with the Radius/Maxtrac radio's and any other that program from the mic jack. As for the software, one choice the big M. You can recieve a BIG discount on the price of the software if you set up a government account throught your department and not a regular public account.

I hope this helps you out a little bit

James