XG-100

[123]

Its not a new Company in the Public safety market, just a "merged" company by adding the M/A Com line and changing the name to Harris. The rear chassis is a mirror of the P7100IP series.

[The Pager Geek]

Its not a new Company in the Public safety market, just a "merged" company by adding the M/A Com line and changing the name to Harris. The rear chassis is a mirror of the P7100IP series.

Even more reason to make sure you put your best foot forward... you have to clean up the M/A Com mess.

The name "Harris" is new to the Public Safety market. That's what they're banking on. "M/A Com under new management" if you will.

Now that the horse is dead, I'll finish with: I want them to succeed and I await the updates to make the XG100 better.

tpg

[rangerfourever]

great comments all. I have a XG-100 sitting on the desk as I type. This is a demo unit from our Harris reps to check for fesibility to place on our statewide Moto Astro 25 Omnilink system. We are trying for a FED grant through our state justice authority for radios that must be capable now of P25 trunking. The UNITY as stated will not have trunking until late quarter 2011. For us that might be a deal breaker and the APX will have to be the way to go. I did ask our regional rep why Harris has no plans for EDACS or OPENSKY option in the UNITY. He stated that his sales team has pushed for these formats as a viable UNITY option. We just purchased P7300s from Harris for our new OPENSKY system. I would love to see the triband capability in the P7300 form factor. The 7300 already has P25 trunking standard and has a better "feel" for day to day use on patrol. Just some thoughts for now......

officerdave

[tvsjr]

Most people would be happier to see Opensky die a slow, agonizing death...

[123]

... you have to clean up the M/A Com mess.tpg

The problem I have here is that every instance you bring, I can bring the same in Motorola. My point being both radio manufacturer's have made critical errors at one point or another.

Look at the Florida State wide system. Motorola had it in the bag but made several critical errors, got sued by the State and lost the contract to M/A Com because of it.

I wish both Harris and Motorola the best.

[MTS2000des]

Most people would be happier to see Opensky die a slow, agonizing death...

Funny you should mention that. I had a candid conversation with a Newton County, GA (just East of ATL) about their fairly new OpenSky system. He was quite frank and said that while they were quite happy with the performance of the system for the most part, he feared that Newton county will be left out as we (finally!) are moving to a metro wide Astro 25 DTRS (right now we have about 8 independently run Astro 25 DTRS's on 700/800 but the beginnings of ISSI roaming are finally starting to come to light). Metro Atlanta is a very segregated area government wise, we are very unique in this respect compared to other parts of the country.

I pointed out that Harris/MA-Com/Ericsson/Comnet/GE offers subscriber radios that are capable of operating on the Motorola systems, but for some reason they weren't offered this option. Kind of retarded considering all counties that surround Newton are using either analog Smartnet or Astro 25. Another FAIL for MA/Com. They only have one other major PS system here (Henry County, GA uses ProVoice) but no complaints from them either. Seems like Astro 25 seems to be the dominant choice for wide area trunking systems, they outnumber MA/Com 10-1.

[rangerfourever]

I too would like to see both Moto and Harris do well. Since Harris "took over" our M/A COM build out of our OpenSky system, they have been very, very committed to make this new system work. I was not in agreement with our choice of OpenSky, but it is what we have now and I am part of a joint city taskforce that will see this system work. The UNITY is a nice start of a true SDR radio platform for interoperability. Harris as well as Moto knows that the future is in SDR radio and me hopes each company's products only get better.....

[123]

I pointed out that Harris/MA-Com/Ericsson/Comnet/GE offers subscriber radios that are capable of operating on the Motorola systems, but for some reason they weren't offered this option. Kind of retarded considering all counties that surround Newton are using either analog Smartnet or Astro 25. Another FAIL for MA/Com. They only have one other major PS system here (Henry County, GA uses ProVoice) but no complaints from them either. Seems like Astro 25 seems to be the dominant choice for wide area trunking systems, they outnumber MA/Com 10-1.

Incorrect, Motorola systems are proprietary and can only be installed in the radios if you pay Motorola royalties & Motorola gives you their blessing {Like EF Johnson does}
I think you are misunderstanding the difference between Motorola Systems and P25 systems. Analog Smartnet as you pointed out is Motorola Proprietary. And why would Harris waste their time paying royalties to a dieing system? Analog Smartnet is old technology. P25 anyone can manufacturer, P25 trunking is NOT a Motorola "baby". All the leading radio manufacturer's produce P25, its not a Motorola system as you call it.

For the Open Sky system users they can still inter-operate. Harris has radios that are able to do OpenSky and P25 in the same radio.

[MTS2000des]

I pointed out that Harris/MA-Com/Ericsson/Comnet/GE offers subscriber radios that are capable of operating on the Motorola systems, but for some reason they weren't offered this option. Kind of retarded considering all counties that surround Newton are using either analog Smartnet or Astro 25. Another FAIL for MA/Com. They only have one other major PS system here (Henry County, GA uses ProVoice) but no complaints from them either. Seems like Astro 25 seems to be the dominant choice for wide area trunking systems, they outnumber MA/Com 10-1.

Incorrect, Motorola systems are proprietary and can only be installed in the radios if you pay Motorola royalties & Motorola gives you their blessing {Like EF Johnson does}
I think you are misunderstanding the difference between Motorola Systems and P25 systems. Analog Smartnet as you pointed out is Motorola Proprietary. And why would Harris waste their time paying royalties to a dieing system? Analog Smartnet is old technology. P25 anyone can manufacturer, P25 trunking is NOT a Motorola "baby". All the leading radio manufacturer's produce P25, its not a Motorola system as you call it.

For the Open Sky system users they can still inter-operate. Harris has radios that are able to do OpenSky and P25 in the same radio.

I am very clear on what the differences are. I am also very clear that Harris/MA-Com sold Newton county a system that will NEVER become a part of our metro wide (and maybe one day statewide) 700/800 Astro 25 DTRS and is just as proprietary as Astro 25 SZOL is. The only Smartnet II systems in use are being phased out, everyone around here (except Newton) uses Astro 25 (except MARTA who is using Astro SZ V4 3600 baud CC). So why buy something that is totally incompatible from system level to subscriber radio level with everyone else around you?

[resqguy911]

I am also very clear that Harris/MA-Com sold Newton county a system that will NEVER become a part of our metro wide (and maybe one day statewide) 700/800 Astro 25 DTRS and is just as proprietary as Astro 25 SZOL is.

And how is that the fault of anyone but the system designer or governance that allowed it to occur? Thats like saying hose manufacturers are responsible for incompatible thread cuts on couplings when there is a NST.

[MTS2000des]

I am also very clear that Harris/MA-Com sold Newton county a system that will NEVER become a part of our metro wide (and maybe one day statewide) 700/800 Astro 25 DTRS and is just as proprietary as Astro 25 SZOL is.

And how is that the fault of anyone but the system designer or governance that allowed it to occur? Thats like saying hose manufacturers are responsible for incompatible thread cuts on couplings when there is a NST.

it is when you promise something that you cannot deliver, which is what allegedly occurred here.
and apparently not so different than similar experiences of those such as the State of Pennsylvania, New York, and Milwaukee. All of them were sold OpenSky. All of them have yet to see a fully functional system built out with the coverage, reliability and interoperability they were promised. OpenSKY is a bad idea.
How much has Harris had to lose on the PA system just to get it functional? You can defend it all you wish, fact is Motorola while not perfect, has sold many a more Astro 25 networks and has had fewer problems than OpenSky deployements. Fact is OpenSKY systems don't qualify for SAFECOM grant money.

If Harris wants to grow and prosper they need to shed themselves of this white elephant fast. Why so many QC problems with subscriber radios? What's the deal here? Bueller...anyone..Bueller?

[123]

I quote
"So why buy something that is totally incompatible from system level to subscriber radio level with everyone else around you?"

Why did Motorola sell Smartnet systems in the 90's in areas where everyone else around them were still conventional and did not have trunked smartnet radios to talk on? This example is direct to your point of "totally incompatible from system level to subscriber radio level"

Or better yet, why would System Manager "B" buy a P25 trunking radio for his Police Dept if System Manager "A" wont allow the Newly bought Dept radio on his system?

It all depends on your "version" or view point. Your theory can easily be reversed in many various examples.


I make this point:

As long as your subscriber has a multi mode radio and able to switch between the systems within your area. Such as a EDACS/P25 dual mode radio, etc. A Public Safety agency does not need to buy the same system or radios to inter operate. They are still interoperating, who cares how they accomplish it?

And you seem to forget that there are National Conventional interoperable repeaters & simplex frequencies all over the US, and dispatchers have always had the option to patch channels together if the console is configured for it {Trunked or not} So even if they can NOT inter operate on a trunked system they can ALWAYS inter operate on a conventional level.

And I will also point out there are high dollar P25 Multi-Site roaming State Of the Art Systems on right now that the System Managers refuse to allow other agencies to roam on their system for various reasons. Just because a agency is on a Multi-site system does not mean they will have Multi-site roaming privileges. Which defeats the purpose to begin with... There are many other red tape political factors involved in interoperability then just everyone using the "same system" and we are all happy and talking on the same system. Its not as simple as that.

Every agency has a right to chose, we are not in a Communist Country where everyone is forced to buy the same product regardless if we like the choices or not. Trust me, in a big REAL disaster that is effected on a Systemwide level, when the towers go down, or you can't get a talk permit-tone, and when all else fails...When everyone and there mother is causing "busy" outs on the trunked systems you will be glad you still have a conventional simplex frequency for interoperability because the interoperable trunked system wont count for much. Interoperability systems are only as good as the natural disaster environment they are hit with. That is the true test of interoperability to the maximum capacity when you need interoperable communications the most !

[123]

it is when you promise something that you cannot deliver, which is what allegedly occurred here.
and apparently not so different than similar experiences of those such as the State of Pennsylvania, New York, and Milwaukee. All of them were sold OpenSky. All of them have yet to see a fully functional system built out with the coverage, reliability and interoperability they were promised. OpenSKY is a bad idea.

Tell that to the State of Florida that had a Motorola system incompletely built VSELP system for years, even after ASTRO25 was introduced they were still dealing with critical faults in the system, went tremendously over budget and at the end Motorola got sued, and Fl went with M/A com

As already pointed in my previous posts you can point fingers on both sides of the fence. Just because this is a Motorola favorable website does not mean you sweep Motorola's bad dealings under the rug and pretend they are holy. I love Motorola, but lets not give them the clean bill of health so fast as they are equally as guilty on critical failures.

[resqguy911]

it is when you promise something that you cannot deliver, which is what allegedly occurred here.
and apparently not so different than similar experiences of those such as the State of Pennsylvania, New York, and Milwaukee.

And only New York had the forethought to require it to work properly before they paid up.

Once again, please don't take this the wrong way. I think this discussion is great- more people should dig this deep when specing these things.

[The Pager Geek]

... you have to clean up the M/A Com mess.tpg

The problem I have here is that every instance you bring, I can bring the same in Motorola. My point being both radio manufacturer's have made critical errors at one point or another.

Look at the Florida State wide system. Motorola had it in the bag but made several critical errors, got sued by the State and lost the contract to M/A Com because of it.

I wish both Harris and Motorola the best.

I agree, they both have histories... except M/A Com has a worse history than Motorola. Also, people hate change. Typically, you have to show significant improvement to change anything in life. It's human nature. We hate change.

In the end, I can count far more failures for M/A Com per systems sold. Yes, Motorola has failures, but when the number of Motorola systems outnumber the competition significantly, the number of potential failure increases. That's basic math.

Again, I fall back to: Harris needs to make a good first impression in the Public Safety market, otherwise people will brush them aside. You keep pointing the finger "Motorola does bad things too." It doesn't make it right, but incumbents win for a reason. People don't like change. I've seen it COUNTLESS times. Motorola is highest bid, least assured design and not what the customer needs... but guess what: In the end, the politicians and decision maker "radio experts" still choose them. "We've always used them and we're not sure about Brand X." It happens everywhere.

You like to point the finger at "The State of Florida" as the poster child for Motorola failure. Do you REALLY want to play the "who's failed more" game with systems? Then play the "who has more systems in operation" game? M/A Com will lose both.

The TRUE test will be the deployment of P25 Phase 2 trunking systems. It's a standard both must achieve. That will be the real test. Only time will tell.

tpg

[123]

It's human nature. We hate change.tpg

Now you are just getting ridiculous with your opinions with no facts to base them on.

If change wasn't good Businesses wouldn't merge. Many businesses merge, and change names over the years. And usually very good for business. Actually, it is business !

example 1.
Barnett Bank > Nations Bank > Bank America > Bank of America
{I can't even count how many businesses Bank of America has bought !}
They also bought out Merrill Lynch

Indeed, they have a large empire !

example 2 {Includes mergers, buyouts, and name changes}

Allied Telephone Company > Systematics, Inc > 360 Communications > Standard Group, Inc. > Aliant Communications > Liberty Cellular > SBC Communications > First Cellular > GTE Wireless > Bell Atlantic > Alltel > Verizon {Too long of a list to show them all !}

Indeed, Verizon also has a very large empire !

Example 3 {Oh ! You will love this one ! Motorola wasn't always Motorola}

Galvin Manufacturing Corporation > Motorola
Motorola also bought out General Instrument

And this was just 5 mins of typing ! Changes are indeed a way to do business. Rarely does a business just sit still and not buy out other businesses.

Harris made a smart move by buying M/A Com, they just added a nice asset to their empire.
And don't forget, Harris has bought out about 15 other Companies !


Verizon has a lonngg list of names yes? So what/ revenue is $107 Billion

Don't tell me people don't like change ! Change is good, change enhances.
By the way, Motorola Revenue is down while Harris Revenue is going up. Although Harris is not beating Motorola yet, wait and see. I am sure that will change. Motorola made its money on controlling the market with propitiatory systems, but they no longer have control.

[akardam]

Gentlemen, this is a warning... keep it on topic, and keep it civil.

[MTS2000des]

the bottom line is multi-system, multi-band radios are too high end, overpriced and over complicated now. 7000 dollars for a portable, the price can skyrocket if you add trunking software and accessories. That is absurd when many agencies are scraping pennies and struggling how to make payroll. Until the price points and user interfaces are brought down to reality, the XG100 is a nice toy for system admins and military comm folks but I don't see every cop or hose jockey toting one.

Maybe things are different in your town, but not the case around here.

[The Pager Geek]

It's human nature. We hate change.tpg

Now you are just getting ridiculous with your opinions with no facts to base them on.

I think you may have misunderstood me or I did a poor job of typing. I believe corp change and growth is good and well accepted. The decision makers purchasing the devices and systems are human, and humans (specifically men) dislike change. They must move from understanding and comfort to the unknown. Every example you listed was business oriented, not human. I wish people would look objectively, but usually the decision makers rely on instinct. Not always, but usually.

I apologize for the miscommunication.

tpg

[edit: Note to mods, if agreeable to 123, I'm ok moving to a diff thread or deleting the posts as it seems it turned into more of a Harris vs Motorola conversation instead of the XG100 Topic. I leave it up to him.]

[123]

the bottom line is multi-system, multi-band radios are too high end, overpriced and over complicated now. 7000 dollars for a portable, the price can skyrocket if you add trunking software and accessories.

$7,000 {An estimated retail price} actually includes the trunking option in that price {When it is released}. But when you slice it into a single band price. It only comes to $1,750.00 per band {VHF,UHF-L,UHF-H,700/800MHz}

And again, that is FULL list price. Actual quoted price can be lower.

[123]

I would love to move on to the topic and discuss the pros and cons of the radio and hopefully enhance the radios future features. Although I do not believe we can leave Motorola clearly out of the picture because I am sure most of us will agree. We want the radio to have similar options or at least work in conjunction with our current M radios on basic features. Hopefully we can have a productive conversation on that as well because I think this is a learning experience for all of us and together we can help form this radio into something we ultimately enjoy to have in our toy box or Public Safety job.

With that said, I have already emailed a Harris rep on possible firmware updates and changes with my and others issues that we have with the radio. This includes the suggestion about the volume control issue that "The Pager Geek" pointed out.

Another point that I saw is needing the ability to page the radio. The XG 100 does "call" a motorola radio & XG 100 receives a call but no audio able tone.

I also think the software seems very difficult to navigate and lacks user customizable options for the radio. I think a software revision is in order as well....

Has anyone tested the emergency button? I got my Motorola radios to acknowledge the Emergency call with the audible emergency alarm one time from the Motorola radios but have not been able to reproduce that scenario again. They do show my PTT ID as emergency but would like the audible tone to ring on the motorola radios when I press the Emerg. button on the XG 100 each time.

[123]

By the way. For those of you that are interested in monitoring P25 trunked systems in conventional mode with the XG-100:

I am successfully tracking single talkgroup conversations in conventional mode on a P25 system. And yes I have the control channel included in the scan list, the radio ignores the control channel and moves on to voice traffic with no problem. PTT ID of the unit talking is displayed along with your single talkgroup ID.

If you wish to monitor the entire system for any conversation that works well also,and displays the current talkgroup ID & PTT ID simultaneously.

If the conversation is encrypted the radio will still show the PTT ID and also display "no key" meaning you do not have a valid secure key to monitor that conversation.

[MTS2000des]

the bottom line is multi-system, multi-band radios are too high end, overpriced and over complicated now. 7000 dollars for a portable, the price can skyrocket if you add trunking software and accessories.

$7,000 {An estimated retail price} actually includes the trunking option in that price {When it is released}. But when you slice it into a single band price. It only comes to $1,750.00 per band {VHF,UHF-L,UHF-H,700/800MHz}

And again, that is FULL list price. Actual quoted price can be lower.

still out of reach of most but large affluent agencies. It's nothing more than inflation, and Motorola is just as guilty of it. The COST to produce and XTS2500 is somewhere around $70 in materials and labor, and yet the average selling price is close to it's nameplate "2500" dollars. Absurd. Considering that the iPhone 4 has 100 times the RAM, CPU and can operate on multiple radio bands and modes (2G GSM, 3G UMTS, WiFi) and yet the cost is still a fraction of what a BASIC digital public safety radio is. Oh yeah, I know, that XTS or XG comes in a ruggedized Macroblend polyester housing- but aside from all that, there really isn't that much under the hood to justify the high price, other than the users are willing to pay. Or at least until they started going broke.

Hams have enjoyed multiband VHF/UHF radios in mobile and portable flavors since the mid 1980's. Why did it take almost 3 decades for this to come to public safety? It sure isn't a lack of users demanding it. Because we know that isn't the case.
More like an industry fat and content on selling the same old hardware and designs to a small base of customers who don't really have a choice. That is until those "rice patty" radio companies starting turning out damn good products at fraction of the cost and getting into the infrastructure business.

[123]

"MTS2000des" The moderator has already warned to stay on topic, so I won't respond to those comments on this thread.

[rangerfourever]

123 I agree....lets get back to the radio itself( I got off topic myself). I agree with pager geek, the volume on our demo model would never work on the belt,on a fire scene outside with all the surronding noise. I for one do not like the "feel" of the knobs. Others have commented that they feel cheap for such an expensive radio. I have used the FPP in the radio to reprogram on the fly.... still having trouble with the radio when it reboots a mission file,losing my programing. Not sure if that will end once I get the cable to use CPS to program. I just have to work with the radio more. Hopefully I have a couple of weeks more on the demo....

[The Pager Geek]

I have used the FPP in the radio to reprogram on the fly.... still having trouble with the radio when it reboots a mission file,losing my programing. Not sure if that will end once I get the cable to use CPS to program.

If you FPP a channel it will not save it to the stored mission file. Thus, if you reload the mission file, the original stored mission file will overwrite your FPP changes. Using the LMR program will create the mission file that is stored in the radio.

Hope that helps.

tpg

[rangerfourever]

thank you sir....that makes sense. If I understand correctly, a mission file can only be done by the LMR program? I would like to see full programing capability including updating/creating mission files through the FPP function. Would be great for programing on the fly, on mutual aid incidents, outside of our home area. (i.e. enroute downstate to aid in tornado cleanup, we program a new mission plan for the effected location's radio(s) without having to drag along a laptop etc) Harris so far seems very receptive to constructive feedback on the UNITY.

[123]

If I understand correctly, a mission file can only be done by the LMR program?

Yes correct. But you still can FPP each channel of the mission files saved in the radio, which technically is all you need in the field. Then when you get back to the software just save what you have done before switching mission files. You have 10 mission files you can dump into the radio, so I suggest taking advantage of that and pre-plan your frequencies ahead of time. 12,500 channels should satisfy most agencies needs for mutual aid where ever they go. What I did is created a mission file for each state around me.

[123]

And just to clarify, you can switch between mission files already saved in the radio. Software is not needed for that.
10 mission files with 1,250 channels each = 12,500 total channels that you can save in your radio.

So getting your mission files created in the software and saved in your radio is the key.

[alex]

I'm curious...

How is the programming software for the XG100? Anyone post some screen shots?

-Alex

[rangerfourever]

thanks 123, makes sense to have multiple mission files saved per possible scenerio and just switch to them as the need arises. Hopefully when I can work with the software, I will have a better understanding...

[123]

Other then the above mentioned issues, does anyone else have anything else they would like to add in future firmware releases?
I am working with Harris on these issues.

Also FYI per Harris {spoke to the Engineer today} DES-OFB/AES-256 they are still working on some issues so no it is not officially released yet.

[WCHija]

True Home Revert scan versus talkback with a 0 second hang time, FPP in designated zones only, 900mhz coverage, adjustable time out on the display back light. Bluetooth FTP.

[123]

Understood.
They are not supporting any open market bluetooth pairing options because they are pushing for their own AES-256 encrypted bluetooth acc's that will start shipping next year.
{Note: Although I have paired my laptop with the radio so I know pairing with open market BT items is possible but not guaranteed.}
Also Harris advises they may discontinue the CPA and release RPM 2.0 as a new software platform.

There is no "big" demand for 900MHz so dont hold your breathe on a official 900mhz release. I think you have a better chance of someone creating a 900 mhz hack codeplug for the hams out there...

I think its safe to say the first batch of radios are a good start but this is still in the developmental stages to say the least.

[123]

I'm curious...

How is the programming software for the XG100? Anyone post some screen shots?

-Alex

I emailed it to you along with pics of the XG-100 and XTS 5000 side by side. Sorry it too so long, been busy with other projects.

[fineshot1]

I recently had two of these to try out and do a small un-scientific comparison with some older
motorola portables on vhf-hi band. Back in july i had an XG-100P and in sept i had an XG-100F
of which i really dont know the difference. The moto portables i had on hand were a HT-1000
and a HT-600. The XG-100 rx & tx characteristics were just great until it came to rx'ing in a
dense rf environment. The moto portables with the XG right next to it in tx mode rx'ed just
fine(i should mention this is not simplex, but duplex repeater operation) but the XG while
rx'ing with the moto portables in tx side by side got very desensed. The tx & rx freqs are
about 1 Mhz apart in this comparison and both the moto's and XG had about 5 watts out.

I searched hi & low for the selectivity specs for the XG but could not find that out and
when i requested such specs from the sales rep(he is not a Harris rep) i got a bunch of
excuses, theories, and weird looks.

I'd have to say my experience with the XG-100 is limited but not positive due to the
above comparison on vhf-hi band only.

[123]

Squelch setting are set too high on the XG
Also make sure you have the current firmware in the radio and not an old one.

[radioinstl]

Squelch setting are set too high on the XG
Also make sure you have the current firmware in the radio and not an old one.

1. What is the current version of firmware?

2. Can it be upgraded in the field yet? The last time they updated my XG, it had to go back to the factory to have it done.

[123]

To answer your questions:

1. 1.1
2. You can upload firmware via the programming software. I have done it already and easy to do.