A recent post under the "General Discussion" section of the Batboard says that Motorola has put all forms of DES (e.g., DES-CFB, DES-OFB, DES-XL, etc.) onto a common secure board for the XTS 3000. There is no longer a separate board for each of the various DES schemes.
How can one tell (without tearing open their radio!) if their particular XTS 3000 radio has this universal secure board, or is it extremely new? And, has the CPS changed so that there is now a seection whereby one programs the encryption type?
Larry
XTS Major Change/Upgrade!
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ASTROMODAT
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ASTROMODAT
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XDC, please check the recent post regarding XTS secure modules in the General Discussion section of the Batboard. As I noted, the 3 standard forms of DES are now covered by the SAME module: NTN 9121A. This includes DES-CFB, DES-OFB and DES-XL. Notice that regardless of which type of these 3 flavors of DES encryption you need in an XTS radio, the NTN 9121A module handles them. Previously, each board only addressesd 2 forms of DES. Now, the same board, NTN-9121A, covers all 3 versions. Notice how many boards were discontinued with the same, single board.
XDC, are you saying that this has been the case for a long time? If so, how can I check my radio without having to open it up?! Again, I need to convert from DES-CFB to DES-OFB. You can see that the module type is now the SAME, so if it's been around for a long time and the radio ALREADY has the NTN 9121A board in it, what hardware would I need to change? I was kindly advised on this Batboard that with an XTS radio, going from DES-CFB to DES-OFB WOULD require a hardware encryption module change. If my radio has an NTN 9121A (which XDC says has been around for a long time) then why did the post say I need a hardware change? I'm confused now!
I need to find out which encryption hardware module type is physically installed in my particular XTS radios, yet I surely don't want to have to needlessly crack them open. If a hardware change is required, it would make most sense to go directly to AES, as opposed to the stop gap measure of DES-OFB. Thus, my quagmire. If I have the NTN 9121A already installed in my radios, I may delay going to AES for a little while.
This is a fairly big deal for anyone with DES-CFB who needs to go to DES-OFB to be P25 compliant because if their radio has the NTN 9121A, it would mean that an encryption module hardware replacement for $750, not including labor, would NOT be required to convert to OFB.
Does anyone know if the CPS has the ability to specify the DES encryption type among 3 different DES protocols (e.g., DES-CFB, DES-OFB or DES-XL)? If the NTN 9121A has been around for a long time, then I assume this is not a new feature in the CPS? I can't seem to find it.
Pj, would you please let us know how you check in the maintenance mode for the hardware module number of the encryption board on an XTS 3000 Model III? I was not aware that the maintence mode would allow you to check the module number types. Thanks, Pj, in advance, for your help in this!
Larry
XDC, are you saying that this has been the case for a long time? If so, how can I check my radio without having to open it up?! Again, I need to convert from DES-CFB to DES-OFB. You can see that the module type is now the SAME, so if it's been around for a long time and the radio ALREADY has the NTN 9121A board in it, what hardware would I need to change? I was kindly advised on this Batboard that with an XTS radio, going from DES-CFB to DES-OFB WOULD require a hardware encryption module change. If my radio has an NTN 9121A (which XDC says has been around for a long time) then why did the post say I need a hardware change? I'm confused now!
I need to find out which encryption hardware module type is physically installed in my particular XTS radios, yet I surely don't want to have to needlessly crack them open. If a hardware change is required, it would make most sense to go directly to AES, as opposed to the stop gap measure of DES-OFB. Thus, my quagmire. If I have the NTN 9121A already installed in my radios, I may delay going to AES for a little while.
This is a fairly big deal for anyone with DES-CFB who needs to go to DES-OFB to be P25 compliant because if their radio has the NTN 9121A, it would mean that an encryption module hardware replacement for $750, not including labor, would NOT be required to convert to OFB.
Does anyone know if the CPS has the ability to specify the DES encryption type among 3 different DES protocols (e.g., DES-CFB, DES-OFB or DES-XL)? If the NTN 9121A has been around for a long time, then I assume this is not a new feature in the CPS? I can't seem to find it.
Pj, would you please let us know how you check in the maintenance mode for the hardware module number of the encryption board on an XTS 3000 Model III? I was not aware that the maintence mode would allow you to check the module number types. Thanks, Pj, in advance, for your help in this!
Larry
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I'm not sure about model numbers, but the DES-XL/DES-OFB modules that came out in the mid 90's are capable of DES, DES-XL and DES-OFB. <b>Before I move any further, keep in mind that DES (aka DES CFB) can only be used in Securenet mode and not in digital mode, unless M has changed this recently.</b> If you want to know what algorithms are in your radio, you will have to put the radio in service mode by turning it on and pressing the bottom side button (just over the ptt) 5 times with 10-15 seconds of powerup. you may have to play with it, because depending when you start, not all presses are registered. The display will cycle through the host/dsp firmware versions then it will display the EMC version number followed by the encryption algorithms in KG1 and KG2. You do not have to open the radio up. Oh yes, make sure "secure h/w" is first enabled in the codeplug, otherwise service mode will skip the EMC info.
If your radio does indeed have a DES/DES-OFB board in it and you want to do DES-XL, then you will have to change the encryption board. Thats the only hardware change that is required. You don't need any software changes.
Are your radios multikey?
If your radio does indeed have a DES/DES-OFB board in it and you want to do DES-XL, then you will have to change the encryption board. Thats the only hardware change that is required. You don't need any software changes.
Are your radios multikey?
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ASTROMODAT
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My XTS 3000 Model III UHF conventional ASTRO Ready radios were ordered new from Motorola in December, 1997. They are NOT muklti-key. I do plan to FLASH upgrade to enable the digital voice mode, and they must be P25 compliant.
I would like to enable DES-OFB, and have no need for neither DES-CFB, nor DES-XL. I have no need for SECURENET operations. Instead, I need to be DES-OFB for P25 compliance.
Here is what the radios say in the SERVICE mode:
EMC R02.11
KG1 DES
KG2 None
Can you tell from this information if I need vs. do not need a module change to support DES-OFB?
Thanks. XDC, for all of your help!
Larry
I would like to enable DES-OFB, and have no need for neither DES-CFB, nor DES-XL. I have no need for SECURENET operations. Instead, I need to be DES-OFB for P25 compliance.
Here is what the radios say in the SERVICE mode:
EMC R02.11
KG1 DES
KG2 None
Can you tell from this information if I need vs. do not need a module change to support DES-OFB?
Thanks. XDC, for all of your help!
Larry
DES/DVP etc etc is pretty much "Securenet"...
BTW: Look to spend about $680 per radio from "READY" to IMBE digital. Prices may be +/- $20.
Remember that unless you are exchanging the same encryption key between multiple agencies in the Astro mode, you can use any for of encryption. P25 complainace for encrypted communications only applies to the radio if you have -OFB chip installed. If you have a P25 radio transmitting in the clear, with a DVP chip installed, you are still in compliance. You are out of compliance if you are in P25 mode transmitting with a DVP chip, but the radio will still transmit in the P25 mode without any problems..
Just trying to save ya some cash!
(I only bring this up again as many people are baffled by BS from sales guys)
From what you wrote, looks like you have straight DES only (no-XL/-OFB etc).
BTW: Look to spend about $680 per radio from "READY" to IMBE digital. Prices may be +/- $20.
Remember that unless you are exchanging the same encryption key between multiple agencies in the Astro mode, you can use any for of encryption. P25 complainace for encrypted communications only applies to the radio if you have -OFB chip installed. If you have a P25 radio transmitting in the clear, with a DVP chip installed, you are still in compliance. You are out of compliance if you are in P25 mode transmitting with a DVP chip, but the radio will still transmit in the P25 mode without any problems..
Just trying to save ya some cash!
(I only bring this up again as many people are baffled by BS from sales guys)
From what you wrote, looks like you have straight DES only (no-XL/-OFB etc).
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
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XDCLabs.COM
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You will need to switch modules in order to do DES-OFB. Furthermore this module is useless to you in Astro mode. M made a business decision a long time ago to not support DES (CFB) in Astro/Digital mode. It is only supported in Securenet/Analog mode. If you do attempt to use it in digital mode, keys will load fine, but on astro channels, you will see an "Invalid Key" display.ASTROMODAT wrote:Here is what the radios say in the SERVICE mode:
EMC R02.11
KG1 DES
KG2 None
Can you tell from this information if I need vs. do not need a module change to support DES-OFB?
The reason I asked you about multikey is that singlekey radios will only use the first algorithm, unless it is DES-XL/DES-OFB. So if you get a great deal on, say DVP-XL/DES-OFB and you're not upgrading to multikey, then stay away from it, because it will only use the first algo. Remember DES-XL/DES-OFB will be fine. So if you're sticking with singlekey, make sure the module is DES-XL/DES-OFB or DES-OFB is in KG1.
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ASTROMODAT
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XDC,
I can't seem to find anyone knowledgable enough on ASTRO P & M to answer my question: With the current encryption module NTN 9121A that supports ALL forms of DES, where and how in the RSS and/or CPS do you set the encryption type?
Since I have to upgrade, shouldn't I make a clean break and go with AES?
Larry
I can't seem to find anyone knowledgable enough on ASTRO P & M to answer my question: With the current encryption module NTN 9121A that supports ALL forms of DES, where and how in the RSS and/or CPS do you set the encryption type?
Since I have to upgrade, shouldn't I make a clean break and go with AES?
Larry
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XDCLabs.COM
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In general you don't need to set encryption type in RSS, unless you're using a module that has DES-XL and DES-OFB. The reason is because the same DES key can be used in XL or OFB modes. Usually the module determines algorithm based on the key type. Here there is ambiguity.
In RSS, this was solved by adding an option in the "secure options" screen per "personality" (do you know where this is?). The option allows you to select DES-XL or DES-OFB operation when you're using a dual-DES module. This tells the module which algorithm to use for the selected DES key. Now keep in mind that in "older" firmware, the radio automatically selected DES-XL for securenet operation and DES-OFB in astro operation. So the RSS option has no effect. After a certain host version this feature was introduced. If you have host 5.x.x or older, then you can't manually select DES flavor.
I hope I've answered your question.
As for AES, I think M has triple crypto now. You can have AES, DES-XL and DES-OFB in the same module. Whether to go to AES, can can't answer unless I understand your needs. You may contact me directly for this.
In RSS, this was solved by adding an option in the "secure options" screen per "personality" (do you know where this is?). The option allows you to select DES-XL or DES-OFB operation when you're using a dual-DES module. This tells the module which algorithm to use for the selected DES key. Now keep in mind that in "older" firmware, the radio automatically selected DES-XL for securenet operation and DES-OFB in astro operation. So the RSS option has no effect. After a certain host version this feature was introduced. If you have host 5.x.x or older, then you can't manually select DES flavor.
I hope I've answered your question.
As for AES, I think M has triple crypto now. You can have AES, DES-XL and DES-OFB in the same module. Whether to go to AES, can can't answer unless I understand your needs. You may contact me directly for this.
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ASTROMODAT
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XDC, there is a screen in my RSS 6.50.00 that lets you select "software encryption," but ONLY IF ASTRO is enabled. (This "software encryption" option is not visible if you have an ASTRO Ready radio, as opposed to ASTRO Operational.)
Therefore, when I FLASH upgrade my XTS radios from ASTRO Ready to ASTRO Operational, is it possible that this "software encryption" option will be activated, thus DES Securenet will be supplanted by DES-OFB, without having to change the actual hardware encryption module?
Larry
Therefore, when I FLASH upgrade my XTS radios from ASTRO Ready to ASTRO Operational, is it possible that this "software encryption" option will be activated, thus DES Securenet will be supplanted by DES-OFB, without having to change the actual hardware encryption module?
Larry
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XDCLabs.COM
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It's been a while since I've used RSS 6.5.0. What host/dsp firmware do you have? That will help me answer you question more precisely.
Software encryption and algorithms available on encryption modules (called hardware encryption) are completely separate. Software encryption is a M proprietary algorithm implemented in software within the DSP and thats what it is called, while hardware encryption is in a physical module, which gets you all the DES flavors, DVP-XL, etc.
Software encryption and algorithms available on encryption modules (called hardware encryption) are completely separate. Software encryption is a M proprietary algorithm implemented in software within the DSP and thats what it is called, while hardware encryption is in a physical module, which gets you all the DES flavors, DVP-XL, etc.
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ASTROMODAT
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XDC, the DSP version in my XTS radios is in the 5.x something series (I ordered my XTS 3000 Model III and ASTRO Spectra mobile radios new from M in December, 1997). In the Maintenance mode, the XTS display readouts scroll by so fast that I can't copy the data down. Is there a way to slow down this maintenance mode readout routine, or manually advance it a step at a time?
Anyway, now I'm confused. Since I must upgrade to a new encryption module, the new one has ALL flavors of DES protocols. I have never seen any option in the RSS where you can select the DES type (which I will now absolutely be forced to do). Yes, I know the screen that allows you to choose DES vs. DES-XL, but I have never seen a screen with ALL DES types in the RSS.
Are you saying that I need to upgrade from DSP 5 to DSP 7 firmware? Will this require the new XTS chasis?
So, it sounds like I need to do 3 things: Step 1) Change the hardware encryption module; Step 2) FLASH for ASTRO IMBE P25; and Step 3) Upgrade the XTS firmware so I can somehow toggle to DES-OFB, since the current encryption modules carry ALL of the various DES flavors. This is going to get pricey, as Steps 1 and 2 (by themselves) will be $1,500, plus Tax and Motorola Depot Mtce Labor (probably will total about $1,900 per radio. Still, it's a lot less than the $5,000+ for a new XTS with ASTRO and DES-OFB).
What is involved in upgrading my XTS 3000 radios' firmware from HOST 5.x to the current HOST? I assume this is more than a FLASH, and I will need to have Motorola change out the affected PROMs? Any guess as to price? Given Steps 1 and 2, can I assume that having M upgrade my radios' firmware is pretty routine and perhaps the price is packaged in with Steps 1 and 2?
Larry
Anyway, now I'm confused. Since I must upgrade to a new encryption module, the new one has ALL flavors of DES protocols. I have never seen any option in the RSS where you can select the DES type (which I will now absolutely be forced to do). Yes, I know the screen that allows you to choose DES vs. DES-XL, but I have never seen a screen with ALL DES types in the RSS.
Are you saying that I need to upgrade from DSP 5 to DSP 7 firmware? Will this require the new XTS chasis?
So, it sounds like I need to do 3 things: Step 1) Change the hardware encryption module; Step 2) FLASH for ASTRO IMBE P25; and Step 3) Upgrade the XTS firmware so I can somehow toggle to DES-OFB, since the current encryption modules carry ALL of the various DES flavors. This is going to get pricey, as Steps 1 and 2 (by themselves) will be $1,500, plus Tax and Motorola Depot Mtce Labor (probably will total about $1,900 per radio. Still, it's a lot less than the $5,000+ for a new XTS with ASTRO and DES-OFB).
What is involved in upgrading my XTS 3000 radios' firmware from HOST 5.x to the current HOST? I assume this is more than a FLASH, and I will need to have Motorola change out the affected PROMs? Any guess as to price? Given Steps 1 and 2, can I assume that having M upgrade my radios' firmware is pretty routine and perhaps the price is packaged in with Steps 1 and 2?
Larry
Well, it may not be a firmware deal for the new encyption. You should update you RSS as v9.05 is out (dos verison).
When you upgrade your radio with newer features that require a higher HOST/DSP, the flashupdate will update them to the correct verison.
If you just want to update your radios to the current host/dsp, it will cost approx $986 and you will get no real value. This is the price that I got for my Astro's.
I also wonder if you have one of the orginal XTS's with the 512k boards in them. I BELIEVE with the saber and XTS they both follow the same HOST/DSP guidelines... V7 and up Host is a 1MEG board and V5 and below is a 512k board. You may need a 1MEG vocon to use the newer encyption.
Also, if you need a truly APCO 25 complaint radio with the 9600 control channel for trunking, you need the 1meg board. No way around that.
I would call M and ask them what's in your radio, or check your paperwork and see if its stated.
When you upgrade your radio with newer features that require a higher HOST/DSP, the flashupdate will update them to the correct verison.
If you just want to update your radios to the current host/dsp, it will cost approx $986 and you will get no real value. This is the price that I got for my Astro's.
I also wonder if you have one of the orginal XTS's with the 512k boards in them. I BELIEVE with the saber and XTS they both follow the same HOST/DSP guidelines... V7 and up Host is a 1MEG board and V5 and below is a 512k board. You may need a 1MEG vocon to use the newer encyption.
Also, if you need a truly APCO 25 complaint radio with the 9600 control channel for trunking, you need the 1meg board. No way around that.
I would call M and ask them what's in your radio, or check your paperwork and see if its stated.
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ASTROMODAT
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If you are able to select "software encryption", then I believe you have VSELP radios. It's my understanding that software encryption is not a feature of IMBE radios. If that's the case, you won't be able to make your radios APCO-25 compliant since IMBE would require different hardware.ASTROMODAT wrote:XDC, there is a screen in my RSS 6.50.00 that lets you select "software encryption," but ONLY IF ASTRO is enabled. (This "software encryption" option is not visible if you have an ASTRO Ready radio, as opposed to ASTRO Operational.)
Therefore, when I FLASH upgrade my XTS radios from ASTRO Ready to ASTRO Operational, is it possible that this "software encryption" option will be activated, thus DES Securenet will be supplanted by DES-OFB, without having to change the actual hardware encryption module?
Larry
Todd
The "Chicago Flashcode" radios are IMBE CAI and have software encription in the flash code. You can set it all up with the RSS, enter keys, etc. It just doesn't work!
M tells me they only delivered functional software encryption to one customer - LAPD - and LAPD is not using it anymore.
What makes it fuctional or not functional? Apparently there is only one firmware version - the one shipped to LAPD - that actually functions correctly - and you may be right - this may be only with the VSELP vocoder.
M has been surveying large users about the desire for this product (software encryption), but have not decided on a delivery date or price structure yet.
M tells me they only delivered functional software encryption to one customer - LAPD - and LAPD is not using it anymore.
What makes it fuctional or not functional? Apparently there is only one firmware version - the one shipped to LAPD - that actually functions correctly - and you may be right - this may be only with the VSELP vocoder.
M has been surveying large users about the desire for this product (software encryption), but have not decided on a delivery date or price structure yet.
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XDCLabs.COM
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There is a way to slow it down, but I can't remember. I think it is linked to a temporary display duration field. In any case, you can see it in RSS. After you read in the codeplug, press F9 and you'll see all you need but the EMC info.ASTROMODAT wrote:In the Maintenance mode, the XTS display readouts scroll by so fast that I can't copy the data down. Is there a way to slow down this maintenance mode readout routine, or manually advance it a step at a time?
Thats because you're using RSS 6.5.0. This option was first introduced in 8.0.0.ASTROMODAT wrote:I have never seen any option in the RSS where you can select the DES type (which I will now absolutely be forced to do). Yes, I know the screen that allows you to choose DES vs. DES-XL, but I have never seen a screen with ALL DES types in the RSS.
If you want to be APCO25/IMBE compliant you will need a host/dsp upgrade in addition to an upgraded codeplug. I don't believe you need and hardware upgrades considering you have 1Mb vocoders.ASTROMODAT wrote:Are you saying that I need to upgrade from DSP 5 to DSP 7 firmware? Will this require the new XTS chasis?
You need 1.) and 2.). I would hope pricing for 2.) will include 3.). Toggling the XL/OFB option required using RSS8 or newer, which you will automatically be using due to the upgrade.ASTROMODAT wrote:So, it sounds like I need to do 3 things: Step 1) Change the hardware encryption module; Step 2) FLASH for ASTRO IMBE P25; and Step 3) Upgrade the XTS firmware so I can somehow toggle to DES-OFB, since the current encryption modules carry ALL of the various DES flavors.
I was going to explain the flashing process, but that would be too much to type. Since you spending a good deal of money you probably should be prepared/knowledgeable. I can explain it to you if you're interested. PM me or email me. It's in my profile.ASTROMODAT wrote:What is involved in upgrading my XTS 3000 radios' firmware from HOST 5.x to the current HOST? I assume this is more than a FLASH, and I will need to have Motorola change out the affected PROMs? Any guess as to price? Given Steps 1 and 2, can I assume that having M upgrade my radios' firmware is pretty routine and perhaps the price is packaged in with Steps 1 and 2?
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XDCLabs.COM
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These recently got released. You can purchase AES, DES, DVP-XL on one module. No I don't have any. I think it will be a while before it hits ebay and poor buggers like us have a shot at them.Pj wrote:With the current Astro Saber firmware HOST 7.10.00 DSPN 08.02.06, it will show up to three encryptions (KG-1, KG-2, KG-3) but I have never seen any modules with three types.