SAM questions, Again

[FMROB]

Hello all,

I have two quantars set up as base radios in a voting system. Console can select where the TX goes to, neither of the quantars have ICFBR programmed, as this might cause dualing radios. All radios and console are linked via micro.

In case of failure of either the micro or a quantar, more likely a micro hop I want to be able to have the dispatch over a stand alone base radio be able to turn off one quantar and make the other revert to a stand alone repeater. Assume that both quantars have sam modules. My questions is,

Will simple set-up and knock down commands via the SAM take the quantar from base config to repeater or deoes this need some special commands. I don't recall if base and repeat are a per channel programming basis. If this is the case will a simple channel change via sam work?

Any other ideas.

Thx, Rob

[MassFD]

Rob

I do not think the base or repeat is avaiable on a per channel basis, type of system is in the main config menu. There is so little info about the SAM avaiable but I have to assume it can be set up to use wildcard tables, in that case you can do repeater setup and knock down commands from there. You would also need to set up some wildcards tor your tone remote commands from the microwave link to insure that once you regain wireline control and attempt to transmit it cancels the previous SAM wildcard setup.

The only question is does the SAM use the wildcard tables, I do not see it in my CPS but I do not have a SAM.

[MassFD]

Rob

I just looked at the CPS and in the channel screen there is a squelch qualifier for repeater activation normaly set to carrier an PL/DPL but there is an option for OFF that I assume would disable the repeat while still passing RX to the wireline. In that case you could use the SAM to steer the quantar to a second channel to disable repeat.

Would not solve your problem as you are not incabinet repeating with your voter and I understand you not wanting to have them both come up in wireline failure but you could set the station ou want to be primary to ICRPT and only sam that one and let the other one go dead on wireline fail.

[FMROB]

Kevin,

Yes, the SAM can cause wild card functions through SAM programming, but this appears in the SAM programming software (and its very complex with very little helpful data). I can load a factory sam profile which provide setup and knock down functions of the repeater, However I don't know that this will work if the Quantar is set for duplex base station (which now creates the problem). I can't find anything that will change state of the quantar from Full Duplex Base to repeater.

The troubling part is that the system in which I am talking about is a voted system, with the comparator at the HQ location, which only has a co-located Rx'r. The two transmitters are at two seperate remote locations. The customer has no reason to steer the TX except for cases of failure or maintenance.... So, my thought is that one of the more vulnerable components is the micro hop, which if it goes down will make them either tragically deaf or mute. So I need a way to over-the-air regain control of these quantars. Part of this is to proivde some TTL logic fromt he quantars to the console for failures that will alert the dispatcher to failures or alarms on these quantars.

My other thought was to leave one quantar programmed as a full duplex base at the primary site, and then program the back up site repeater as a repeater but leave it knocked down. If I still have a rx'r in the knocked down state than I can program a button on the console to shut off the TX line to the primary site and send it to the remote base radio, send a DTMF command to set-up the repeater, and will TX on the base radio to talk and RX remote base style. ?? I just cant figure the best way to do this

Thx, Rob

[Jason]

There'd be no need to do a frequency change I wouldn't think unless the bases are on separate freqs which it sounds like they aren't. Program the SAM to enable/ disable repeat with a set of dtmf commands from a backup control station. You could then turn on the other base as a repeater when needed when its normally disabled via rf during a wireline loss. Setup the primary base for fallback repeat if the digitac fails, and a set of dtmf commands to disable if needed and you're pretty well protected for backup coverage.

I've used this config in the past trick is the SAM programming. Had to have Schaumburg assist with it, it was a Bear from what I remember.

[Jason]

Yes wireline control and SAM card functions such as dtmf control can coexist as long as the station is not simulcast enabled.

The other key is the default state upon power up. Be sure the backup base defaults to disable in case of a random station reset and the primary is set for default disable also with FBICR enabled with your desired timer setting of comparitor loss so you don't end up with two repeaters after a power loss.

[N4DES]

Kevin,

Yes, the SAM can cause wild card functions through SAM programming, but this appears in the SAM programming software (and its very complex with very little helpful data). I can load a factory sam profile which provide setup and knock down functions of the repeater, However I don't know that this will work if the Quantar is set for duplex base station (which now creates the problem). I can't find anything that will change state of the quantar from Full Duplex Base to repeater.

Thx, Rob

Correct...you can't knock down a Quantar programmed as a base in CPS with a SAM card. We tried a number of different configurations when I added an astrotac and satellite receivers to a system that I had a SAM module on. The information from system support is that it is not available in that configuration.
The only option I believe, which would take an external controller, is to utilize the TX inhibit on the backplane. But I'm not 100% on that.

[FMROB]

If I have the quantar programmed as a repeater, will it still act as a receiver, meaning will I get 2175 tone so I can use it in the voting system. If this is the case I can just use simple set-up and knock down. Also, if the repeater in knocked down will the rx'r still work?

[MassFD]

Rob it looks like it will not

I just took 1 of my repeater codeplugs and enabled DigiTac (also tryed Spectra Tac) in the wireline screen then went to the RF screen and the type had changed from Repeater to Base. I then changed the type to repeater and when I looked at the wireline screen the comparitor type had been reset to None. Did it a few times and 1 always canceled the other.SO there goes your status tone and repeater config they are exclusive.

Looks like your only option is to set 1 radio to incab repeat and use that radio as your backup. You woud need to test this on a working Quantar to see if the Wildcard RptrKD and RptrSetup commands work on incab repeat, we know they work on a true repeater but do not know if they work on Incab Repeat.

If it does not work you could always use the sam to output on the backplane and jumper that output to the XmitInh on the backplane, we used to have the MSF's setup that way. Only problem with that is if the Sam has the output active to inhibit the Xmitter the wireline will not be able to key it either so the dispatcher will have to cancel the SAM command before the radio could be used by the wireline again.

If you test this let us know the results.

[xmo]

FMROB asked if you can configure a Quantar as a repeater with voting and as MassFD discovered - you can't do that - but that's the wrong question to ask.

The real question is: can SAM control Fall Back In Cabinet Repeat? The answer to that question is yes.

Configure both Quantars as a base stations. Configure the wirelines for voting with status tone and enable Fall Back In Cabinet Repeat. In the channel screen choose MDC repeater access.

Configure the SAM card in each station to do repeater knockdown and repeater setup. In normal operation, which you will define in the power-up action table, SAM will hold both stations in knocked down state. That won't prevent the stations from operating correctly as base receivers and transmitters in the voting system.

When you lose site connectivity, dispatch would switch to using a control station for over-the-air access to the system. You would use two personalities in the control station - with channel names corresponding to the site names - and have the control station send a unique MDC ID for each.

When each SAM decodes the correct MDC ID and executes an action table with the repeater setup bit, that will allow the Fall Back In Cabinet Repeat to operate in the selected station. Cross program your main and alternate stations so that one MDC ID enables repeat at one site and disables repeat at the other site. Set the second MDC ID to do the opposite. The SAM decoder can recognize the MDC ID as a target to cause a particular action table to be executed. That action table contains the correct address and bit to enable/disable for repeater setup / knockdown.

Have one more action table in both SAM cards so that once normal site connectivity is restored, you can send a third ID as a common knockdown to stop both Quantars from doing Fall Back In Cabinet Repeat.

[MassFD]

There you go Rob

Xmo, as always has the answer. He is the God of Quantar wildcard and has helped me many times.

Only thing I can add is make sure you have battery backup on all stations so the setup will not change on power AC power fail when the wind blows.

[FMROB]

XMO, MassFD,
Thank you. I think this will work for what I need. A couple of thoughts about this

1) Can I use DTMF insted of MDC? I see this being easier button programming on the console for me. I do see DTMF that I can assign to an action table, which should work. ** Also, If I remember MDC in the SAM will not successfully do SU/KD. This was discussed on the board some time ago, don'e exactly remember the outcome.

2) On battery, YES. Both sites have LP Gen and have two 106 Amp Hour AGM batteried wired in series for 24 volt charge/revert.


XMO,

I follow your last post to the T. Where I loose you a bit is what you wrote below. Where or what is the power up action table?

Configure the SAM card in each station to do repeater knockdown and repeater setup. In normal operation, which you will define in the power-up action table, SAM will hold both stations in knocked down state.

Here is another question. With the cancellation of the quantar, does the new GT series have a SAM module option or is it more intergrated now?? I see us starting to sell some of these units in the near future.

Happy thanksgiving, Rob

[MassFD]

Rob

I think you can create a wildcard table that on COLD RESET Will perform the actions you want the station to default to on startup.

I kind of like the idea of using MDC on the control station. You could program the 3 modes to display Normal -Emerg East - Emerg West, the dispatcher then just has to select the mode and key the control station, no training required.

Do not know the answer to Rptr Setup and Rptr Knockdown being avaiable in SAM MDC but I am sure Xmo will be along soon to answer that one, if the sam uses the full list of wildcard commands it should be.

[FMROB]

Kev,

Ok on the cold reset table, that make sense. I will have to search the software again to see where that is programmable.

As far as the MDC, yes in theory you are correct about that, two things however.

1) I recall for some reason that the MDC will not control SU/KD, that only the DTMF format would work. I would love to see if someone else got that working.

2) As far as user control, I am dealing with an AVTEC console. I would have to assign a button that would automatically steer the base radio to three different channels, all programmed with a different MDC system. I guess this would work. I could also use one button programmed in an on/off fashion that will send the DTMF string to the one channel on the base radio. Like XMO said, the code would perform opposite commands for each repeater.

I am going to put this in the works within the next two weeks. I am just putting the finishing touches on cleaning up an absolute OVM (other vendor mess) as far as infrastructure and am am getting down to refining the operation and reliabilty of the system. I will report how it works out.

Thx, Rob

[xmo]

The default SAM codeplugs contain an action table [#5] that is executed when SAM wildcard input 15 becomes active upon a SAM reset. That is explained on page 28 of the SAM RSS manual and again on pages 55-56.

On page 60, the manual shows that address 004C, target bit 3 is used to control repeater SETUP/KNOCKDOWN. Just point your decoder targets at two tables like those on page 60. It works perfectly. I set up a station in the lab and programmed it that way to verify. You can use DTMF if you want to, but MDC ID works fine.

Or... forget the SAM, just use PL.

Program the station for MCS. Create a station wildcard action table that executes repeater knockdown on power up. Create another that executes repeater knockdown on wireline PTT. Create another table that executes repeater setup on a second PL that you add to the MCS user table.

When you lose connectivity, change your dispatch control station to a channel that sends the special PL and presto - the station becomes a repeater. It stays that way until it gets a line PTT [or a power-on reset]. That way the comparator automatically resets it!

Actually, you would make three special PL entries - one to enable site 1 / disable site 2, the second to enable site 2 / disable site 1, the third to disable both.

[MassFD]

Wow Xmo you did it again.

I was just playing with the MCS as you sugjested and with a little wildcard programing there is alot it can do, I have a problem similar to FMROB. I have 3 Quantars on wireline, if I lose the wireline (T-1) I need to be able to do a RptKd of the main station (remotely located) so I can switch to the backup that is colocated with the dispatch.

Using MCS all I need is a control station on an alternate PL, key it once and the remote repeater is out of my way so I can repeat from the colocated station.

Only odd thing I found with the MCS is it can only do 1 RX DPL but 12 RX PL's, not a problem for me as the mobiles are all on the same DPL and I would use PL to do the control functions.

More than 1 way to skin a Cat Thanks