This is probably a question for XMO and/or XDC:
Control tones from the TRC console to the DIU3000 determine whether the TX mode from the DIU3000 to the Quantar is analog, or ASTRO Clear or ASTRO Encrypted. These control tones would have no purpose to be passed on to the Quantar. Does the DIU3000 swallow these particular tones? On the other hand, there are control tones that must be passed on to the Quantar, such as the Set-up/Knock Down command. So, does the DIU make a decision as to whether to swallow, versus pass through to the Quantar, each of the various programmable control tones? And, if ALL control tones are passed through the DIU3000 to the Quantar, then I assume one must be darn careful to not inadvertantly cause a control problem (such as with the Mode tones!).
Larry
Quantar, DIU and TRC
Moderator: Queue Moderator
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ASTROMODAT
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The DIU decodes the all the tone remote control sequences. These are converted into Astro digital control commands that are passed to the Quantar over the digital link (modem or V.24). No tones ever go to the radio.
The mapping of the TRC sequences to specific radio functions is created in a Function REQuest table in the DIU. This is done with the DIU RSS.
The mapping of the TRC sequences to specific radio functions is created in a Function REQuest table in the DIU. This is done with the DIU RSS.
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ASTROMODAT
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Xmo, I re-read my DIU3000 manuals and DIU3000 RSS book and I now understand your points. However, may I ask 3 follow-up questions?
1. Regarding the programming of the Quantar RSS: Once I tell it that I am interfacing via ASTRO MODEM, can I ignore (eg, not have to fill out) the Quantar TRC screens?
2. Regarding the TRC console: For some TRC commands (to be sent to the DIU3000), I assume that they must be sent each and every time you press the PTT on the DIU3000 handset (or console mic). For instance, when you choose the Transmit Mode (Analog FM, ASTRO Clear or ASTRO Coded), does this command tone get sent (after Guard Tone) from the TRC to the DIU3000 for each and every subsequent transmission, or is this sent from the TRC to the DIU on a one time basis only the first time you push the appropriate programmable button on the TRC? In other words, this is a one time deal and the DIU3000 remains in that selected Mode, if and until you push a different Mode?
3. On the other hand, for the MRTI Enable/Disable and the Repeater On/Off commands, are these sent once, until toggled differently, or do they get sent from the TRC to the DIU each and every time you hit the PTT?
Xmo, my questions on #2 and #3 are so I can talk to Zetron. I am using their Model 280 programmable TRC. It's confusing to me whether I need to make these Mode selection Commands (such as Analog, Clear or Coded) versus the Repeater On/Off and MRTI Enable /Disable one time (until it needs to be changed), or whether some/all of these commands need to be sent right after Guard Tone (e.g., each and evewry time youy hit a PTT). The issue is that when I studied the programming instructions for my Zetron TRC, it is unclear whether the TRC command tones are sent only when you push/toggle a progammable TRC button, or after each PTT is pressed. I need to call Zetron, but first I thought I'd try to understand what the DIU is "looking for" before I querry Zetron.
Thanks for all of your kind help and patience, Xmo! How about a free helicopter ride?
Larry
P.S. Is it a good idea to use 2432 Hz for HLGT and LLGT soas to get the optimum analog audio filtering in the DIU3000? There is a note in my DIU3000 RSS manual that says: "The LLGT is used internally and then is filtered so it is not heard at the speaker. Best filtering performance in ASTRO modes is achieved by the DIU when the guard tones are set to either multiples of 5t Hz or to the specific frequency of 2432 Hz."
P.S. #2 Do you know what the "Outbound Analog Link Timer" is for (default value is 120 seconds)? What the heck are they referring to in connection with "receiving an analog call?" Also, should I enable the "Digital Link Check?" Should my ASTRO ID be 1 or 293? I am seeing conflicting info on this.
1. Regarding the programming of the Quantar RSS: Once I tell it that I am interfacing via ASTRO MODEM, can I ignore (eg, not have to fill out) the Quantar TRC screens?
2. Regarding the TRC console: For some TRC commands (to be sent to the DIU3000), I assume that they must be sent each and every time you press the PTT on the DIU3000 handset (or console mic). For instance, when you choose the Transmit Mode (Analog FM, ASTRO Clear or ASTRO Coded), does this command tone get sent (after Guard Tone) from the TRC to the DIU3000 for each and every subsequent transmission, or is this sent from the TRC to the DIU on a one time basis only the first time you push the appropriate programmable button on the TRC? In other words, this is a one time deal and the DIU3000 remains in that selected Mode, if and until you push a different Mode?
3. On the other hand, for the MRTI Enable/Disable and the Repeater On/Off commands, are these sent once, until toggled differently, or do they get sent from the TRC to the DIU each and every time you hit the PTT?
Xmo, my questions on #2 and #3 are so I can talk to Zetron. I am using their Model 280 programmable TRC. It's confusing to me whether I need to make these Mode selection Commands (such as Analog, Clear or Coded) versus the Repeater On/Off and MRTI Enable /Disable one time (until it needs to be changed), or whether some/all of these commands need to be sent right after Guard Tone (e.g., each and evewry time youy hit a PTT). The issue is that when I studied the programming instructions for my Zetron TRC, it is unclear whether the TRC command tones are sent only when you push/toggle a progammable TRC button, or after each PTT is pressed. I need to call Zetron, but first I thought I'd try to understand what the DIU is "looking for" before I querry Zetron.
Thanks for all of your kind help and patience, Xmo! How about a free helicopter ride?
Larry
P.S. Is it a good idea to use 2432 Hz for HLGT and LLGT soas to get the optimum analog audio filtering in the DIU3000? There is a note in my DIU3000 RSS manual that says: "The LLGT is used internally and then is filtered so it is not heard at the speaker. Best filtering performance in ASTRO modes is achieved by the DIU when the guard tones are set to either multiples of 5t Hz or to the specific frequency of 2432 Hz."
P.S. #2 Do you know what the "Outbound Analog Link Timer" is for (default value is 120 seconds)? What the heck are they referring to in connection with "receiving an analog call?" Also, should I enable the "Digital Link Check?" Should my ASTRO ID be 1 or 293? I am seeing conflicting info on this.
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ASTROMODAT
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Some of these issues are fairly easy and some of them aren't...
1. Once you tell the Quantar it is an Astro station, the RSS won't even let you see the TRC screen. (easy)
2&3. Some commands can be sent once and 'latched' at the DIU until a later time when a different command is sent to change the state - like repeater knock-down. Other commands - like mode selection - can be latched or they can be refreshed with every PTT. This is dependent on the system design. The console device and the DIU obviously have to be programmed the same. (not easy)
The book says the optimum filtering of the LLGT exists if the tone frequency is a 5 Hz increment OR the specific frequency 2432. It doesn't actually recommend changing from the default 2175. (easy - stay with 2175)
The analog link timer pertains to the use of a single 4-wire line for systems where the Quantar is remotely located (using the Motorola 9600 Astro modems) This single line carries digital commands and digitized voice between the DIU and the Quantar EXCEPT during analog voice transmissions. The timer value determines how long the station can stay in analog mode without switching back to digital (presumably to see if the DIU & Quantar need to talk to each other - pass a status or command, etc)
The default time is 120 seconds and can be set to a maximum of 300 seconds. Now let's suppose you have an analog MRTI call in progress - if that call exceeds the timeout and the link switches back to digital - just how bad will that interruption be?? That's a very good question as well as a system design issue. If the link between the DIU & the Quantar is local (V.24) there wouldn't be a drop out. This would be the case where you have the DIU and a Quantar control station at your office talking wirelessly to a remote Quantar repeater.
Here is another design issue - repeater knock down. Suppose your repeater is connected to the DIU by wireline. Now suppose someone at a console device sends the knockdown command. If a mobile talks - the repeater won't come up - no other mobile will hear - BUT - the console devices will hear and someone there could answer. The calling mobile and others will hear the answer - so anyone listening to the channel will only hear one side of the conversation.
Maybe that's what you want - maybe not. Not sure why you want repeater knock down. On the other hand - if you have a control station with no wireline to the remote repeater - and we knock the repeater down - it is DOWN - nobody talks at all until we bring it back up. Maybe that is better- as I said - a system design issue.
Astro brings lots of design issues particularly if you want multiple formats - analog clear, Astro clear, Astro coded. This is where the Free-format configuration applies. If we have the operation mode slaved and the system is in analog mode when somebody calls in Astro mode: "Hello base - hello? hello? HELLO?" Not good. If we set up mixed mode and someone calls in code and someone else answers in clear or analog- that could be bad too.
You have to start with a system design that takes into cosideration all these factors including mobile / portable capabilities, Quantar capabilities, DIU capabilities, console (Zetron in your case) capabilities. Then establish compatible programming for all of those devices. (Then train everybody how to use the beast.)
It's a new world - and you want to drag MODAT into all this? Say goodby! RIP MODAT! You get PTT ID built into the Astro anyway.
1. Once you tell the Quantar it is an Astro station, the RSS won't even let you see the TRC screen. (easy)
2&3. Some commands can be sent once and 'latched' at the DIU until a later time when a different command is sent to change the state - like repeater knock-down. Other commands - like mode selection - can be latched or they can be refreshed with every PTT. This is dependent on the system design. The console device and the DIU obviously have to be programmed the same. (not easy)
The book says the optimum filtering of the LLGT exists if the tone frequency is a 5 Hz increment OR the specific frequency 2432. It doesn't actually recommend changing from the default 2175. (easy - stay with 2175)
The analog link timer pertains to the use of a single 4-wire line for systems where the Quantar is remotely located (using the Motorola 9600 Astro modems) This single line carries digital commands and digitized voice between the DIU and the Quantar EXCEPT during analog voice transmissions. The timer value determines how long the station can stay in analog mode without switching back to digital (presumably to see if the DIU & Quantar need to talk to each other - pass a status or command, etc)
The default time is 120 seconds and can be set to a maximum of 300 seconds. Now let's suppose you have an analog MRTI call in progress - if that call exceeds the timeout and the link switches back to digital - just how bad will that interruption be?? That's a very good question as well as a system design issue. If the link between the DIU & the Quantar is local (V.24) there wouldn't be a drop out. This would be the case where you have the DIU and a Quantar control station at your office talking wirelessly to a remote Quantar repeater.
Here is another design issue - repeater knock down. Suppose your repeater is connected to the DIU by wireline. Now suppose someone at a console device sends the knockdown command. If a mobile talks - the repeater won't come up - no other mobile will hear - BUT - the console devices will hear and someone there could answer. The calling mobile and others will hear the answer - so anyone listening to the channel will only hear one side of the conversation.
Maybe that's what you want - maybe not. Not sure why you want repeater knock down. On the other hand - if you have a control station with no wireline to the remote repeater - and we knock the repeater down - it is DOWN - nobody talks at all until we bring it back up. Maybe that is better- as I said - a system design issue.
Astro brings lots of design issues particularly if you want multiple formats - analog clear, Astro clear, Astro coded. This is where the Free-format configuration applies. If we have the operation mode slaved and the system is in analog mode when somebody calls in Astro mode: "Hello base - hello? hello? HELLO?" Not good. If we set up mixed mode and someone calls in code and someone else answers in clear or analog- that could be bad too.
You have to start with a system design that takes into cosideration all these factors including mobile / portable capabilities, Quantar capabilities, DIU capabilities, console (Zetron in your case) capabilities. Then establish compatible programming for all of those devices. (Then train everybody how to use the beast.)
It's a new world - and you want to drag MODAT into all this? Say goodby! RIP MODAT! You get PTT ID built into the Astro anyway.
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ASTROMODAT
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Thanks, Xmo, for all of your kind help on these complicated issues involving DIU interfacing, etc.I believe I now have a good enough understanding, and in the proper context, where I can get things correctly configured.
As to Repeater Set-up/Knock Down, this feature is necessary for my operations to support night time unattended operation of the Quantar (it's actually required by the FCC if you have a repater and you need night time unattended operatrions. I like keeping things 100% legit with Uncle FCC Sam). Also, with all of the programmable radios out there, on analog FM we occassionally get jammers on the repeater screwing around (swearing and the like). The repeater owner/operatrpor can be vulnerable to FCC actions if you let this go on at length without positve control. The solution here is to Knock Down the repeater until the person(s) get bored and go away. Switching PL or DPL, etc. is worthless---the jammers have the scanners and decoders to easily see this. We normally operate in the clear, of course, and even if you do other stuff (including changing to ASTRO) they can piggy back your transmissions and essentially wipe out your operations by laying a strong carrier on the repeater input frequency. You can still use it as a remote base (Knock-Down mode) in the meantime.
As to MODAT, Yes, we have a lot of existing infrastructure. But, with the inavailability of MODAT on legit ASTRO P & M radios, we are in the process of burying MODAT.
I saw today in the latest R3 catalog (Nov 2002) that there is an option on the portable ASTRO Quantar repeater (ASTRO 3500 repeater---essentially a 45 lb suitcase version of a Quantar with a built-in duplxer) that supports dial-up wireline remote control. You are instructed to order the v.24 option on the wireline board. Then, the R3 instructions say you need an external (drop shipped) modem on each end, with a dial-up arrangement.
Xmo, this dial up remote control set-up referred to in the R3 re: the ASTRO 3500 Quantar is EXACTLY what I was hoping for, and it says only 1 modem at each end is required (as all modern dial up modems are full duplex). The problem I see is that I best hurry up and buy a couple of dial up modems, or pretty soon the ancient slow speed of 9600 baud will no longer be supported. I can't possibly see why someone would go with the dedicated 4-wire solution with ASTRO modems when a single POTS dial up line at each end, with a 9600 baud modem at each end, apparently supports the DIU just as well as a dedicated 4 wire circuit.
Again, am I missing something here (my local Telco supports 7 x 24 dial up connections without tearing them down)? What's the problem/disadvantage of this dial up approach to connect the Quantar to the DIU?
Larry
P.S. They jacked up the CAI IMBE mode on the Quantar from an $1,100 option to a $2,750 option, plus many other big price increases.
As to Repeater Set-up/Knock Down, this feature is necessary for my operations to support night time unattended operation of the Quantar (it's actually required by the FCC if you have a repater and you need night time unattended operatrions. I like keeping things 100% legit with Uncle FCC Sam). Also, with all of the programmable radios out there, on analog FM we occassionally get jammers on the repeater screwing around (swearing and the like). The repeater owner/operatrpor can be vulnerable to FCC actions if you let this go on at length without positve control. The solution here is to Knock Down the repeater until the person(s) get bored and go away. Switching PL or DPL, etc. is worthless---the jammers have the scanners and decoders to easily see this. We normally operate in the clear, of course, and even if you do other stuff (including changing to ASTRO) they can piggy back your transmissions and essentially wipe out your operations by laying a strong carrier on the repeater input frequency. You can still use it as a remote base (Knock-Down mode) in the meantime.
As to MODAT, Yes, we have a lot of existing infrastructure. But, with the inavailability of MODAT on legit ASTRO P & M radios, we are in the process of burying MODAT.
I saw today in the latest R3 catalog (Nov 2002) that there is an option on the portable ASTRO Quantar repeater (ASTRO 3500 repeater---essentially a 45 lb suitcase version of a Quantar with a built-in duplxer) that supports dial-up wireline remote control. You are instructed to order the v.24 option on the wireline board. Then, the R3 instructions say you need an external (drop shipped) modem on each end, with a dial-up arrangement.
Xmo, this dial up remote control set-up referred to in the R3 re: the ASTRO 3500 Quantar is EXACTLY what I was hoping for, and it says only 1 modem at each end is required (as all modern dial up modems are full duplex). The problem I see is that I best hurry up and buy a couple of dial up modems, or pretty soon the ancient slow speed of 9600 baud will no longer be supported. I can't possibly see why someone would go with the dedicated 4-wire solution with ASTRO modems when a single POTS dial up line at each end, with a 9600 baud modem at each end, apparently supports the DIU just as well as a dedicated 4 wire circuit.
Again, am I missing something here (my local Telco supports 7 x 24 dial up connections without tearing them down)? What's the problem/disadvantage of this dial up approach to connect the Quantar to the DIU?
Larry
P.S. They jacked up the CAI IMBE mode on the Quantar from an $1,100 option to a $2,750 option, plus many other big price increases.
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ASTROMODAT
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Xmo, it is Model PDR 3500. Basically a Quantar inside a metal suitcase with the modules mounted horizontally, as opposed to vertically as in the normal rack and/or compa station cabinet configurations. Uses the same Quantar RSS as the full size flavor. 30 watts Conventional only. By the time you equip it with CAI operational, internal duplexer and the ASTRO modem, it's $20,000. Not too cheap. The other downside is that it is only rated for 50% duty cycle operation. Must be a small heatsink and not enough, if any, fan blower(s) on the PA. Not bad, but for $20 grand...
Larry
Larry
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ASTROMODAT
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Exactly.
When you use the motorola internal astro modems the radio uses the single 4-wire line for both analog audio transmit / receive audio AND for Astro digitized audio + Astro digital remote control - time shared by switching back and forth.
When you use an external modem (which you would have to do for dial-up), the station hooks up to that modem with the V.24 interface. Now the station really thinks it is hooked up locally - it uses the V.24 connection for the Astro data and the regular 4-wire line for analog.
If you use external modems (dial-up or otherwise) and still want analog - you would have to have that 4-wire line. If you do that then you might as well skip the external modems and use the one line for both analog & Astro.
When you use the motorola internal astro modems the radio uses the single 4-wire line for both analog audio transmit / receive audio AND for Astro digitized audio + Astro digital remote control - time shared by switching back and forth.
When you use an external modem (which you would have to do for dial-up), the station hooks up to that modem with the V.24 interface. Now the station really thinks it is hooked up locally - it uses the V.24 connection for the Astro data and the regular 4-wire line for analog.
If you use external modems (dial-up or otherwise) and still want analog - you would have to have that 4-wire line. If you do that then you might as well skip the external modems and use the one line for both analog & Astro.
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ASTROMODAT
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Xmo, if you have a MRTI patch in progress in the analog mode (MRTI hooked to DIU3000), after the ASTRO DIU look back analog timer times out (programmable, I know), does it do a very quick revert to digital for housekeeping purposes, and then quickly (milliseconds sort of timeframe) switch back to analog so there is just a quick hiccup on the analog audio path? Or, does it need to switch over to digital for some seconds (or large fraction of a second), perhaps even terminating the patch, or at least chopping off a lot of words/phrases in the conversation?
One other related quick question: I still can't see why the half duplex MRTI mode (my application has the MRTI 2000 connected to the DIU3000) would not work, unless it has something to do with this analog look back/switch over periodic housekeeping requirement. My MRTI RSS defaults to the "Enhanced VOX Simplex" MRTI mode if you select the ASTRO DIU interface application in the MRTI RSS Installation screen. I'm wondering why the half duplex MRTI mode (far preferable to VOX simplex!) wouldn't work? I can see where a half duplex (2-wire private line circuit) console with no COS would need the MRTI Simplex VOX mode. However, with the ASTRO modems and a 4-wire 3002 full duplex Telco circuit, I will have a full duplex connection between the DIU3000 and the Quantar. And, there is digital COS detect logic at the DIU3000 Patch RJ-45 Port (Pin 4), with a digital COS interface at the MRTI 2000 (also Pin 4). The Motorola standard cable for connecting the MRTI to the DIU3000 has a connection between these pins, so there is digital COS detect connectivity in their standard MRTI to DIU cable. Therefore, I am very puzzled why Motorola defaults to Enhanced VOX Simplex mode for the MRTI 2000 when you select the ASTRO DIU mode in the MRTI RSS. The only logic I could see here is that VOX Simplex is bullet proof in that it will work O.K. whether the MRTI had a half duplex or full duplex console lashup. Perhaps this is conservative Motorola again?
Thanks,
Larry
One other related quick question: I still can't see why the half duplex MRTI mode (my application has the MRTI 2000 connected to the DIU3000) would not work, unless it has something to do with this analog look back/switch over periodic housekeeping requirement. My MRTI RSS defaults to the "Enhanced VOX Simplex" MRTI mode if you select the ASTRO DIU interface application in the MRTI RSS Installation screen. I'm wondering why the half duplex MRTI mode (far preferable to VOX simplex!) wouldn't work? I can see where a half duplex (2-wire private line circuit) console with no COS would need the MRTI Simplex VOX mode. However, with the ASTRO modems and a 4-wire 3002 full duplex Telco circuit, I will have a full duplex connection between the DIU3000 and the Quantar. And, there is digital COS detect logic at the DIU3000 Patch RJ-45 Port (Pin 4), with a digital COS interface at the MRTI 2000 (also Pin 4). The Motorola standard cable for connecting the MRTI to the DIU3000 has a connection between these pins, so there is digital COS detect connectivity in their standard MRTI to DIU cable. Therefore, I am very puzzled why Motorola defaults to Enhanced VOX Simplex mode for the MRTI 2000 when you select the ASTRO DIU mode in the MRTI RSS. The only logic I could see here is that VOX Simplex is bullet proof in that it will work O.K. whether the MRTI had a half duplex or full duplex console lashup. Perhaps this is conservative Motorola again?
Thanks,
Larry