Batboard

sounds overly complicated for such a small town. You must only have secure vehicular repeaters. kinda foolish if you ask me, your only as strong as your weakest link...you have lots of weak links so whomever is under the impression that the system is "encrypted" is terribly mistaken.

No vehicular repeaters, i know that for a fact, just Spectras in the trunk. The HT's transmit to South tower, which is closer to the two towns it serves, and the mobiles transmit to the North tower which is located at the county jail and dispatch.

And i agree, they have it overly complicated with a hodge podge of radios and a mixture of secure and analog, etc...

KG6EAQ wrote:

Cam22 wrote:(Coming to you via sat. internet from somewere in the Pacific.)

What provider are you using? Decent speed?

I don't know much about the system. It's called RoadNET. It about the speed of dial-up.

The ship also has INMARSAT-B - NERA Saturn B. There is also a full on fiber network as well as wireless that covers a lot of the ship(not easy when all the walls are made of steel).

Voice system is kind of cool as well. It a SeaWave Communication system that uses GSM, Iridium and Inmarsat-B. The system picks the "least cost" option and makes the call, all from on handset.

KG6EAQ wrote:What band is the antenna on the MT1000?

There is no "digital" version of the MT1000.
The "digital" version of the Spectra is the Astro Spectra.

Go buy a frequency counter, get somewhat close to a cruiser and cross your fingers.

I agree on the freq counter idea. That will at least tell you the repeater input freq.

I don't know if the MT1000's will do DES or not but, a DES signal is very hard to detect with a scanner or non-DES radio. It just sounds like static on the air.

John

Well, I've reading this post between everybody speculating about what Tyler is using on their transmissions. I personally feel they have chosen either DES or DES-XL to prevent the local people with scanner or analog receivers from listening in on the normal Public Safety voice traffic on their assigned RF channels.

I went back to my notes on the MT-1000 Handheld Portable and couldn't find an option for 12 Kb Securenet Encryption but that doesn't mean a thing. Considering years ago /\/\ customers would request DVP on their brand new purchased MT500s or MX300 series handhelds after the fact of receiving the units out in the field. The decision was made not to send the portables back in for retofits or upgrades considering it was a mistake by the customer but an alternative was presented to sell them OEM modules for all of the radios and perform the modifications out in the field.

This OEM is well known in the Land Mobile Radio business and is located in Lincoln, Nebraska, none other than Transcrypt and their product can be mounted in the front cover of a MT-1000 Handheld Portable. If I had to make an educated guess, they have the PL switch wired for Clear / Coded on each radio. It would be difficult to guess how they are Encoding and Decoding the signals at the console because /\/\ sold the CIU to perform that function but those are Obsolete as a product. Possibly Transcrypt has developed a module to perform this function on any standard console.

The T5365A Quantar stations can be ordered brand new for 12 Kb operation requiring the X598AFSP Securenet option and performs as a transparent Base Station / Repeater. If you need the capability of receiver voting, you would need the Digitac Comparator with the C175AGSP Console Priority option and the Astro-TAC Satellite Receivers with X598AFSP options.

Dan

Hate to throw this into the mix, I know nothing about the geography of Minnesota (the land of 10K lakes and 1K fish I am told) but is it possible that these folks are using your county as a test site?

http://www.armer.state.mn.us/

I think you should swallow really hard, muster up the courage to walk up tone of those uniformed cookie monsters while they are in friendly surroundings, and in a sedate mood- buy them a cup of joe in gratitude for thier service to you and the community, and ask them when they are going to the ARMER system and see what happens. My .02 cents says that a cup of free coffee will sink this ship and one way or the other you will have your answer.

One of the dork PD's here went type II 800 trunked several YEARS ago but KEPT thier UHF conventional system up and running-Installing both radios in all thier cars. They NEVER use the conventional system but it is there on watch waiting for nothing. BOTH are still up and running. The logic? was to have a back up for when the trunk failed. GLAD you have alot of confidence in your new system.....

In my experience, the number one thing that government employees, (cops+firepersons+emergency service folks in particular) try to avoid like the plague is "The Blame" .

The blame can keep you from getting promoted and put you out of favor with your higher ups . The blame game can really make your life hard. The blame it can earn you midnights with bad days off or a stint in professional standards, ironing firehose or working bad checks.

The fear of blame can move mountains, change minds, spend copious amounts of money in the name of "officer safety" and most importantly- authorize radio techs unlimited overtime to build out a system months ahead of schedule . Budgets, nope, blame runs government.

Hence $tupid things are so very often put into motion like having two radio systems up for a very small PD- just to avoid "the blame" This could be the case also perhaps!? Not probable but not far fetched either.
I did note that neither the city or county are represented on the ARMER board.

I recede back into my secret blame-free secure government location..........

The 10GHz license mentioned several posts back is no doubt for the Point-to-Point microwave.

Is it possible this is a semi-duplex system, where the portables talk to the dispatcher on one frequency, and the dispatcher to the units on another, WITHOUT a "repeat" function? The California Highway Patrol still has several channels set up like this. To listen to the unit, you have to switch to another frequency that is the actual input.

I would think it ridiculous for them to have encrypted mobiles and clear handhelds. I think they've made a frequency change and you're just not seeing it. Try looking in UHF and see if perhaps they went up there, and are just simulcasting dispatch on VHF.

I still believe Tyler is using 12 Kb Securenet Encryption on their repeater system. If you go back to page # 1 of this post and read the correspondence between the guys, it basically indicates this fact.

When the original DVP came out .... and the first system in the United States was located in Salt Lake City, Utah. /\/\ engineering realized their were some RF system coverage issues to over come. As an example I say a standard analog repeater cover is 25 miles but when the end user switches modes to DVP the range drops to approximately 16 miles due to Bit Error Rate or BER.

Engineering was already working the Micor TAC Analog / Secure comparator to increase mobile / handheld portable coverage back up to the 25 mile radius in the secure mode, They also developed Micor Spectra-TAC Secure Satellite Receivers to use in conjunction with the Micor Analog / Secure comparator and incorporate these into Micor Secure stations.

While using the DVP in this configuration worked but the /\/\ Secure engineering team realized that the talk-in range was not what it should have been. The engineers went back to the encryption scheme, improved on the original design by adding more bits to the encryption / decryption and DVP-XL was developed. It was almost the same range as Analog transmissions using a single Micor Secure / Analog Base Station Repeater.

When secure systems use encryption / decryption on the transmissions as the handheld or mobile station unkeys, it transmits a 6 kHz End Of Message (EOM) tone detected by the other receivers on the RF channel to squelch the receiver's speaker audio similiar to PL reverse burst.

Of course secure encryption / decryption moved forward with DES / DES-XL and DVI-XL for International Sales only, The secure encryption continues on into the Astro Digital modes including APCO P25 Standard.

As far as Minnesota's Land of 10K Jumbo Jet Size Misquitoes and 1K Lakes, I get the willies even thinking about fishing there. The AMBER system is a 700 MHz Digital Trunking System proposed by the Big /\/\ which is based upon APCO P25 Standard.

Dan

d119 wrote:The 10GHz license mentioned several posts back is no doubt for the Point-to-Point microwave.

Speed radar.

jhooten wrote:

d119 wrote:The 10GHz license mentioned several posts back is no doubt for the Point-to-Point microwave.

Speed radar.

duh... you're right. I didn't think that one through completely... K-Band.

12GHz is Ku, 14 is Ka... right?

HERE IN CALIFORNIA, HIGHWAY PATROL USES VHF-HIGH HT1000 THAT GOES TO A PORTABLE REPEATER IN THE PATROL CAR THAT THEN COMES OUT ON A VHF-LOW BAND FREQ.

JUST SOMETHING I THOUGHT OF....

The Transcript encryption is speech inversion with a 1khz reference signal, you can hear the speech inversion then you hear the 1khz signal even when the officer is not talking. A couple local counties use it here, it is interesting to listen to, good day, Radio Kid

They don't use vehicular repeaters. The state patrol here do though, they have a lowband HT and a vehicular repeater that then retransmits out on VHF hi band at 110watts.

Its like having a 110w radio on your belt whenever within range of your car.

Could they be operating off of another county's system on different freqs? Try to expand your area's frequincies for other agencies.

10.525 Ghz is "X" band radar guns.

d119 wrote:

jhooten wrote:

d119 wrote:The 10GHz license mentioned several posts back is no doubt for the Point-to-Point microwave.

Speed radar.

duh... you're right. I didn't think that one through completely... K-Band.

12GHz is Ku, 14 is Ka... right?

radiokid wrote:The Transcript encryption is speech inversion with a 1khz reference signal, you can hear the speech inversion then you hear the 1khz signal even when the officer is not talking. A couple local counties use it here, it is interesting to listen to, good day, Radio Kid

True, but Transcrypt also makes a DES module as well. It's the SC-20-DES-LP module. They don't mention if it's compatible with the Motorla line and I didn't see the data rate metioned either.


mancow

No the transcrypt DES is not compatable with the /\/\ DES. This question was asked in a thread by me not to long ago. Do a search under my call sign as author and you can read all about it.

From a friend in the business down in southern MN and from what he remembers from news on the system they are running a 90% encrypted system. He seems to recall that all law comms are encrypted EXCEPT HT transmissions. The only reason the HT transmissions are in the clear is for officer down safety issues.

As for what sort of encryption and more details he could not recall as he has other systems to worry about then some other counties or PD's that are near him yet he does not work on them. (He is truely that when 4:30pm comes around the radio's power button is activated for the off mode. A little humor as he says.)

He also wants to say that it was simplex but it escapes his mind once again. He was going to try and check into finding out more detail but I can assure you it is way at the bottom of his list.

As for those who think that a county would not run simplex then you need to come up to go ole' MN a. There are some counties who are 30 to 45 minutes away from the metro that within the last year finally went to a repeated channel instead of county wide simplex. YES county wide simplex for law MAIN.

Once he can get more info then I can get it and pass it on. Otherwise as stated before log onto the yahoo group ScanMN and there are quite a few knowledable people who might be able to provide some really good answers to how the system is set-up.

Just wanted to ressurect this old thread for a brief update.

They are using the frequencies as listed with the FCC, unfortunately most of the time they are using encryption, they are only in the open when on their HT's. Sounds stupid but thats the way its setup. So whenever they need to transmit anything of a sensitive nature they have to be in the squad to do it.

The squad's are using a W9 Astro Spectra, just like the local FD setup that i was looking at the other day, see other post about siren info for the Astro Spectra if you want to know what's going on there.

The HT's are a hodge podge of odds and ends. One HT750, a couple MT1000's, and even HT600's as backup.

On another note, i was able to 100% confirm the FCC listings for them. I was able to read one of their MT1000's with RSS. Long story. And so i saw the entire setup they are using. They just don't have much radio traffic over the course of a normal day.

Scott, you may want to check to see if they got the letter. That may be the key to this.

ASTROMODAT wrote:Scott, you may want to check to see if they got the letter. That may be the key to this.

Which letter?

updating their license

Oh yeah, sorry, forgot about that. My memory can be rather short sometimes.

They haven't made any licensing changes, that is, they haven't changed frequencies. Like i said, they are using the currently listed frequencies, they just don't pass much radio traffic in an average day. Nothing but blue skies and cow crap around here.

Sounds similar to what one finds on the Ham repeaters these days---zero traffic. All moved to cellular, an/or the Internet, I guess.

larry

Yep, they have dedicated PD cellulars in each squad, and on each officer.

I think they use the cellular phones more than the darn radios. Seems like every time they are sitting having coffee at the local hangout they are on the cell phone giving and taking information with dispatch for something.