Batboard

first thin, before anyone goes calling anyone a criminal, maybe they should learn how to read and understand more than one line at a time and go down thru the exclusions. just being capable of recieving is only the beginning of the terms, if you read down farther you will see the exclusions.

the confenscation part, we're not the ones confenscating it, we're only asked to remove it for evidence and we give it strait to the pd. from what i understand most are signed over volunterily by the owners so they can get their vehicles back, minus the radios.

i knew when somebody mentioned the term grey area a long time ago this was going to be an arguement and i'm not going to argue, i wasn't offering 2nd or 3rd hand information, i was telling you first hand what i've been asked to do and i'll say it again, take it how you want to and interpit it how you want to. grab yourself a 2-way and come on in to our area with pd frequencies programmed into it and get pulled over and let the rest of us know what happens to you. you can be weekend internet lawyers all you want to and keep telling yourself differently, i'm telling you what the local pd and prosecutors are telling me.

with that said i'm done on this one.

libuff wrote:damn good find! all i have to say is whoah...

so legally, as long as we possess a amateur license, then you fall under this federal FCC ruling, which precludes all state rulings.. that print out has graduated to the glove box!

so what you're telling me, is that i can re-install my scanner? lol.. thanks for the info!

I suggest you reread the Order. It only applies to transceivers. Defined in the order as "Transceivers are radio equipment capable of both transmission and reception."
So this order has NO influence on any state or local law for SCANNERS

Pj wrote:

escomm wrote:HLA, so you're saying the local PD has taken it upon itself to enforce FCC rules?

Adding charges for an FPP battery?

Puh-leeze.

Depends on the state. In NY, it is a violation (pretty sure, not a mis or fel) to have a radio capable of receiving public safety freq's in a vehicle. Now, the law was recently changed which makes it even more vauge, but thats the jist of it. There is a ham exception clause, but because of some of the vagueness, even that causes confusion in court.

Essentially, it was a poorly written scanner law that was recently made even poorer.

Violation of that particular law IS a misdemeanor under NYS Vehicle and Traffic law. There is an exemption for hams.
... I started that class last week.

NYS VTL §397 wrote: Equipping motor vehicles with radio receiving sets capable of
receiving signals on the frequencies allocated for police use. A
person, not a police officer or peace officer, acting pursuant to his
special duties, who equips a motor vehicle with a radio receiving set
capable of receiving signals on the frequencies allocated for police use
or knowingly uses a motor vehicle so equipped or who in any way
knowingly interferes with the transmission of radio messages by the
police without having first secured a permit so to do from the person
authorized to issue such a permit by the local governing body or board
of the city, town or village in which such person resides, or where such
person resides outside of a city or village in a county having a county
police department by the board of supervisors of such county, is guilty
of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not exceeding one thousand
dollars, or imprisonment not exceeding six months, or both. Nothing in
this section contained shall be construed to apply to any person who
holds a valid amateur radio operator's license issued by the federal
communications commission and who operates a duly licensed portable
mobile transmitter and in connection therewith a receiver or receiving
set on frequencies exclusively allocated by the federal communications
commission to duly licensed radio amateurs.

Lets not forget the ham that was ticketed under the "cell phone law" for operating a radio while driving...but thats another topic.

HLA, I was not trying to imply that the radio shop was doing anything illegal, improper or the such.

I am just questioning the practices of the PD as how it was relayed thru what you have told me.

I would be a little leary of reading the radio. A shop in Connecticut was civily sued some time ago for doing that for a PD. It turns out that the criminal case was thrown out (some rinkydink case) but that the PD never got a search warrant for the radio. Radio was sezied as evidence in the inventory of a vehicle, however the contents of the radio where not "apparent". It was basically thought of the same was as computer. You need a seach warrant to see whats in there. The asshat was sucessful in getting money out of the shop. Just something to think about.

I have a ? on the Q52, Q53 FPP issues everyone is talking about.

Where does a radio with both Q52, Q53 fall in this thread ?
The reason that I'm asking is because we had some VHF XTS5000s with both Q52 and Q53 in them.

I just read the saved odeplugs from these radios and they are as follows:

Radio Information
Feature set:
H35- Conventional Systems operation
Q806- ASTRO Digital Operation
Q498- OTAR with Multikey
Q52- Federal Government Front Panel Programming Enhancement
Q53- FCC Conventional Front Panel Programming and Radio Cloning
FCC ID: AZ489FT3804

Flash is 1A0001 000100 5

What category does a radio with this feature set fall in, Govt cert or FCC cert, or both ?




Mike

If it has Q52, then it's not compliant with Part 90.

Well it has Q52 and Q53 in it just like what the feature set displays in CPS and it has an FCC label on it.

That's why I brought this altered subject up.

If one of the moderators wants I can send them the original saved codeplug and they can look it over to verify it, the radio was last programmed with R09.00.00 CPS BTW.

I can take a picture of the original FCC label also if need be.

I just don't want the S/N to get out.

Also BTW the radio was first programmed at the factory back in August of 2003.

It has now been re-flashed and upgraded to smartzone trunking for one of our sales men. This upgrade was done because the original firmware was R03.00.03 and the sales man wanted trunking in this particular radio.

As a result of the flash upgrade the Q52/Q53 are no longer in the radio which didn't set very well for me, kinda like when departments decommission radios by putting them in a crusher.

I literaly had to leave the lab when the radio was being reflashed.


The only reason why I brought this up was because I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen a VHF XTS5000 like this one but apparently not.

Mike

Whether it has Q53 in it it or not is irrelevant. Whether it has the FCC sticker on it is also irrelevant.

Having Q52 active in the radio makes the radio non-compliant with Part 90. There is no gray area about this. What is actually in the radio is all that matters, not what the sticker says. Any schmuck can slap an FCC type-accepted sticker on a radio transmitter, however that does not in any way guarantee that the transmitter is in fact type-accepted.

Q52 is restricted to federal government subscribers only, because the federal government is not subject to FCC rules and regulations. That's all there is to it.

The radio was purchased new from Motorola so I seriously doubt that any aftermarket forged sticker was placed on it between the time it came from the factory and when it arrived here.

I'm just stating that I have a radio with Q52 and Q53 in it with the FCC label specified which was purchased from Motorola back in 2003.

I seriously doubt that the FedEx driver would change the sticker on this radio.


Mike

I have a question in to Motorola about this particular radio so hopefully by the end of the day I'll have a answer as to how could may radio have Q52, Q53 and a FCC sticker on it at the same time.

Hmmmmmmm, I have done a lot of work in the Indy area, at multipul PD's, I have never been given any grief about out of state possession of firearms, radio equipment, radio's programmed on their PD's freq's etc..

I think what you are seeing is the Joe Dirtbag that gets felony stopped, and then they start looking for every charge that they can get, they are not pulling this equipment from "normal" type people, they are taking it off $hitbags.

As far as the FCC enforcing FPP radio's, thye could have arrested 25% of the participants at Dayton Hamvention, as most people had one.. or two.....or a dozen.

mike m wrote:The radio was purchased new from Motorola so I seriously doubt that any aftermarket forged sticker was placed on it between the time it came from the factory and when it arrived here.

The sticker was placed well before the radio became Q52.

HLA wrote:I wouldn't say they activly go looking for this on a regular basis, but when they come across somebody with one they will enforce it. then they will bring the radio to our shop and they turn on a video camera so the court can see in real time and that ther was no tampering on our part and we look thru the codeplug and compare it to all of the local frequencies. they do this on a regularly, i see a couple radios a month from them because they are just never shure what's programmed in them. i've seen them programmed to the local sherriffs department but labeled something different on the display thinking they could hide it that way. but with the video tape that don't lie that makes it so we don't have to go to court. i know i've posetd on here before about the Indiana laws but all i got in responses was how their lawyers would walk all over it and get it thrown out and the whole grey area thing. but i'll say it again, of all the radios the local pd's have brought me to read, NONE of them have gotten returned to the owners. about a half dozen times i've been called by the local pd's to come to their impound yard because they impounded a vehicle with a mobile radio in it and here's the grey area, the radio was bolted into the vehicle so instead of unbolting and cutting it out of the vehicle on the side of the road, they just impounded it. and after they got out their cameras and we read the radio and told them what was in it, I unbolt the radio and give it to them so they can release the vehicle and when the case goes to court they add in the court costs our fees for reading the radio and removing it and you get to pay that too. and i've also posted this before too, if you have a gun with you in the vehicle with that radio programmed to a pd frequency that you are not supposed to be on, it's now a felony charge, it don't matter if you have a license for the gun or not. I guess here in my neck of the woods they just enforce it more.

Indiana, and the attorneys representing overzealous law enforcement can easily be sued poor for prosecutorial misconduct as well as destruction of private property, then comes 4th amendment violations for search and siezure without a valid warrant.

Next comes the felony charges for the officers acting as 'agents' for the F.C.C, which they are not cpnnected to, nor authorized to act on their behalf....That's nothing short of impersonation of a federal official.

Now the cop that takes said radios into his/her posession can now be charged with trafficing in stolen merchandise, as well as receipt of same.

The vehicle in question becomes part and parcel part of that same criminal charge or charges against the department.

These nazi tactics the cops use are the #1 reason I always carry a D.V.R and digital camera with me, no exceptions.

Any attorney worth a dime could easily turn the tables against any PD in a heartbeat, and file counter charges in federal court for impersonation of a federal 'agent'...and make them STICK.

No police department has the power or authority granted to it, to act on the F.C.C's behalf, UNLESS it involves C.B radio complaints, that is all they are allowed to act upon, anything else is a No-No.

Out here, not a single L.E.O even bats an eye if he or she hears their radio traffic blaring from my radios...in fact, many appreciate it when they know people listen and know what's really happeneing.

It's really just about the difference between honesty and dishonesty.....honest cops don't care, the crooked ones do...you choose which ones you believe.

Thank goodness for cop watch L.A....someone NEEDS to keep them under a huge microscope for all the little Hitlers they have within the department.

But no PD can legally keep property that's licensed by the federal government solely because that radio 'may' be able to monitor specific frequencies...it's the sole duty of the F.C.C only, and not any department's.....It is out of their legal jurisdiction, plain and simple.....BTDT myself.....twice!

How hard is it to hit the Zone button when cops pull you up, anyway?

mike m wrote: I'm just stating that I have a radio with Q52 and Q53 in it with the FCC label specified which was purchased from Motorola back in 2003.
Mike

But in 2003 Q52 and Q53 didn't exist and if I read your previous post correctly, you recently flashed the radio.
Technically Q52 does make the radio illegal to be used in Part 90 but does not necessarily void the overall radios type acceptance no matter what stickers are on it because the RF sections of the radio have not been modified to operate outside of its original design.

My hunch is that the radios the FCC receives to type accept have the minimum features and for conventional operation only. I bet "software options" aren't even divulged to the FCC OET division unless they are discussed in the operation manual.

Just as a point of reference, I was probably the first person in the nation to have had a Q53 FPP XTS2500. I received the prototype dongles even before it was manufactured or had a part number directly from an engineer who is a friend of mine who works at the Plantation Motorola Plant. I specified it in a bid that Motorola won for VHF P25 repeaters and subscriber equipment and Motorola delivered.

I just Rcvd an answer to this ? from Ft. Lauderdale today and now my head hurts trying to decipher it.

From Mot:
"OK, it turns out the situation with these two options is confusing,
mostly because the marketing folk have changed exactly what they
represent over the years. As it stands if you order Q53 you get FPP and
cloning, but cloning requires a cable with an ADS (one-wire) chip in it.
If you order Q52 you get FPP and cloning, and can clone with a straight
cable (no chip). Internally all Q52 does is override the ADS
limitation, so when Q52 is ordered Q53 is implicitly added. Thus when
you read a Q52 radio with the CPS, it shows both options."

So my radios with Q52 also have Q53 as i read above and hence the FCC sticker that came with them huh !!!

Now I'm at least clear on some things.


Mike

No my radios were not recently flashed for FPP they were recently reflashed around late 2005 early 2006 to remove the FPP as a salesman was confused and thought they were not FCC certified. They were originally ordered in mid 2003 with Q52 FPP and Q53 FPP in them.

I just found a high split UHF ordered around the same time, August 2003, that still has Q52 & Q53 in it and I may have a couple more VHFs lying around that I need to find.


Mike

As a small clarification (local policy/laws may vary), if a vehicle is impounded, it is typically "inventoried" for articles. This allows the PD to state on paper what was in the car at the time of the tow. This is to protect the PD and tow company from someone saying they had a $10,000 stereo system in there instead of a $25 Wal-Mart AM radio.

However, the flip side is that if there is anything illegal in the vehicle, it can be sezied as evidence. Generally speaking, plain view rules apply and you can't go "digging" for contraband. To do that, you still need a search warrant.

I can't tell you how many reports state "subsequent to a vehicle inventory per department policy, xyz illeagal item was sezied as evidence".

SG is right, its not like Joe Ham has something to worry about. Its typically going to be something more substancial than running a red light. Though, if the cops are actually seeing radios and taking the car based on a minor traffic violation only (or anything else not related to that radio) then there is a boatload of liability that the PD is open for once they stop someone who knows what the game is.

I still vote for felony stops/crimes. I'd still ask for a search warrant authorizing the radio read.

Pj wrote:As a small clarification (local policy/laws may vary), if a vehicle is impounded, it is typically "inventoried" for articles. This allows the PD to state on paper what was in the car at the time of the tow. This is to protect the PD and tow company from someone saying they had a $10,000 stereo system in there instead of a $25 Wal-Mart AM radio.

However, the flip side is that if there is anything illegal in the vehicle, it can be sezied as evidence. Generally speaking, plain view rules apply and you can't go "digging" for contraband. To do that, you still need a search warrant.

I can't tell you how many reports state "subsequent to a vehicle inventory per department policy, xyz illeagal item was sezied as evidence".

SG is right, its not like Joe Ham has something to worry about. Its typically going to be something more substancial than running a red light. Though, if the cops are actually seeing radios and taking the car based on a minor traffic violation only (or anything else not related to that radio) then there is a boatload of liability that the PD is open for once they stop someone who knows what the game is.

I still vote for felony stops/crimes. I'd still ask for a search warrant authorizing the radio read.

and if there is radio in the car, to do anything to it ie: turn it on, transmit etc you need a warrant.

I still vote for felony stops/crimes. I'd still ask for a search warrant authorizing the radio read.


Ok i'm with you on this but now humor me and step back and look at the big picture. let's just say it's 2am and you get stopped for anythign stupid like rolling thru a stop sign or broken tail light? now they ask you the simple questions, can i see your license, registration, and proof of insurance, have you been drinking tonight or is there any weapons in the vehicle or is there anything illegal in the car like drugs or whatever? your answer is probablly going to be no. so their response is do you mind if i have a look to see? now 3 things will happen, you say yes you can look around and here's my amateur license for the 2 way and they send you on your way. or you say yes and they look around and find the radio and you don't have an amateur license. now they are going to ask you questions about it like what's it for and what's in it. if you say i don't know then they are going to start getting an attitude with you saying it's your vehicle and you don't know what's in it? now humor me agian, they ask if they can turn it on, you say yes and they find pd frequencies in it they impound the car, you say no get a warrant, they impound the car until they get a warrant or hold you there until they get a warrant. or the other way, when they first ask if they can have a look in your car you tell them no. then right away they think you are hiding something and they are going to hold you there and probablly see if there is a dog around to check the car and they are going to do even more to see what you are hiding that you tell them no. i mean that's just common sense when you deal with them in that kind of situation. and there are not many 2 ways that are hidden, the whole radio or control head is usually where the driver can see it good and there is a mic plugged into it so if the driver can see it so can the cop. I think what everyone on here is not understanding is that you are going by your local laws and it's probablly legal to be able to do that where you are, that don't mean it is everywhere. some states say you can't use radar detectors, now does that mean you can't own one or just turn it off while you are in that state? Or a handgun, here in Indiana if you have a license you can carry it with you, and the constitution says you can carrry one, but why is it that you can't carry one in Chicago, because the local laws say you can't. now i know some people on here are from chicago, what would happen if you got stopped by the cops downtown in the loop with a gun even if you have a firearm card and you tell them the constitution says you have the right to carry one? they are going to laugh at you lock you up, am i wrong? someone on here posted a federal law on scanners or 2 ways or whatever but that only applies if there is no local laws.

I actually look at things this way, if it's in the air and you have the brains to be able to figure it out and listen it should be ok. i didn't even have a problem with the people years ago that were altering the satellite cards to watch tv, it's in the air, if they can figure it out good for them. I don't think it's right if they do figure it out that they can sell it. but i don't think it's ok for anyone to transmit over something that isn't theirs and i don't think it's ok for you to climb the pole and tap into the cable line. i think if somebody don't want you to hear them then they should encrypt it. and if you can figure out the encryption then good for you. and i think the biggest thing is that laws should be the same everywhere for all states

HLA wrote:I still vote for felony stops/crimes. I'd still ask for a search warrant authorizing the radio read.


Ok i'm with you on this but now humor me and step back and look at the big picture. let's just say it's 2am and you get stopped for anythign stupid like rolling thru a stop sign or broken tail light? now they ask you the simple questions, can i see your license, registration, and proof of insurance, have you been drinking tonight or is there any weapons in the vehicle or is there anything illegal in the car like drugs or whatever? your answer is probablly going to be no. so their response is do you mind if i have a look to see? now 3 things will happen, you say yes you can look around and here's my amateur license for the 2 way and they send you on your way. or you say yes and they look around and find the radio and you don't have an amateur license. now they are going to ask you questions about it like what's it for and what's in it. if you say i don't know then they are going to start getting an attitude with you saying it's your vehicle and you don't know what's in it? now humor me agian, they ask if they can turn it on, you say yes and they find pd frequencies in it they impound the car, you say no get a warrant, they impound the car until they get a warrant or hold you there until they get a warrant. or the other way, when they first ask if they can have a look in your car you tell them no. then right away they think you are hiding something and they are going to hold you there and probablly see if there is a dog around to check the car and they are going to do even more to see what you are hiding that you tell them no. i mean that's just common sense when you deal with them in that kind of situation. and there are not many 2 ways that are hidden, the whole radio or control head is usually where the driver can see it good and there is a mic plugged into it so if the driver can see it so can the cop. I think what everyone on here is not understanding is that you are going by your local laws and it's probablly legal to be able to do that where you are, that don't mean it is everywhere. some states say you can't use radar detectors, now does that mean you can't own one or just turn it off while you are in that state? Or a handgun, here in Indiana if you have a license you can carry it with you, and the constitution says you can carrry one, but why is it that you can't carry one in Chicago, because the local laws say you can't. now i know some people on here are from chicago, what would happen if you got stopped by the cops downtown in the loop with a gun even if you have a firearm card and you tell them the constitution says you have the right to carry one? they are going to laugh at you lock you up, am i wrong? someone on here posted a federal law on scanners or 2 ways or whatever but that only applies if there is no local laws.

I actually look at things this way, if it's in the air and you have the brains to be able to figure it out and listen it should be ok. i didn't even have a problem with the people years ago that were altering the satellite cards to watch tv, it's in the air, if they can figure it out good for them. I don't think it's right if they do figure it out that they can sell it. but i don't think it's ok for anyone to transmit over something that isn't theirs and i don't think it's ok for you to climb the pole and tap into the cable line. i think if somebody don't want you to hear them then they should encrypt it. and if you can figure out the encryption then good for you. and i think the biggest thing is that laws should be the same everywhere for all states

Generally speaking, when you are stopped @ 2AM, they are looking for drugs and/or alcohol violations, not looking for radios.

It, to me, sounds like you have lived this experience, and are venting on this board.

I have been stopped, had firearms, radios etc., in my car, I have never been given the hassel that you are referring, I travel 3-4 states, all the laws are different, and have never had so much as a hiccup.

My suggestion would be to quit violating traffic laws, quit running around in "suspect" area's late at night, and, don't talk to the officer like your on crack when you get stopped.

As far as impounding my car waiting for a warrant, they can do that, the end result the next day won't be a pleasant one, but they can do it. In the United States, you need Probable Cause, because you won't turn a radio on for someone, is not PC for a warrant, a judge won't sign it.

I didn't get much more than that out of the cobbled up mess that you typed with no punctuation/capitalization etc..

Just FYI.

SG

i have reached saturation on this topic.



move on.




doug