SNV 12 VOTER PAGING ISSUES

[efc]

Hello,looking for some insight into a problem that I am having,here is the situation:

Installed a brand new SNV 12 voter into an existing VHF system.The Radio console is a Moto centracom Gold about 8 years old.
The problem that I am having is the paging tones,any of them,I believe that they are hitting the voter too hard because the red and yellow lights on the front of the CIM cardare both lit.It looks like the level out of the console for the paging tones is 8.0 db.I back off the "console" in adjustment so that the paging tones now barely lit the red light on the Cim card.I can inter intermittently get the tones to pass through the voter,but not consistently.Any thoughts?

thanks

[Bill_G]

You need to turn down the paging tones themselves from wherever they originate. ie: a Zetron paging encoder or the CCGE console. Sounds like it was never set up right in the first place.

[efc]

Thanks for the response,that is the first thing that I "tried to do",problem is that it is a Centracom Gold,with as far as , only one transmit overall level adjustment on the front of the Bim card,could find no jumpers to attenuate the tones.

[Bill_G]

+8db is hot. I assume all you did was move the wires from the BIM from whatever they terminated to before over to the new voter. Either the previous device severely loaded down the BIM requiring you to turn it way up, or you have the CIM input set for single ended high impedance (JP2). Doubtful since the default is 600 ohm balanced.

It is okay for the tones to cause the input red and yellow lights to be solid, but the CIM operates best with a -10db input. It should still pass the tones regardless of the input setting though they may be distorted if too loud, and low if set too low. If you get solid yellow and lots of red flicker with voice, you are in the ballpark for settings that sound good over the air. You should measure it with a TMS or AC voltmeter.

As far as I know, the pot on the front of the BIM is the only easy adjustment for the combined tones and voice. You can press the button to get the BIM to produce a test tone for setting levels. The dispatchers will hate you for it since they get to hear the tone too. But, it is expedient. Perhaps someone with more experience with CCGE can chime in if there are other settings for the paging tone levels buried someplace in the configs or jumpers.

[efc]

Yes, it is default at 600 ohm,when I turned up the level on the CIM so that red and yellow lights stay lit,it never passed the tones.What I did to get it to work intermittently was have the dispatcher send out the page while I adjusted the red light to just flicker.Then it would page once and a while,but not at all if I went too far or to high in the sense of the red light on or off.I am fairly certain it is a level issue,because 8 db is hot,the alert tone from the console is -9.0 db,so there is a variation.First,I thought that I needed to increase the front porch time from 100ms to maybe 500ms in the server,under the console settings.

[Jim202]

Yes, it is default at 600 ohm,when I turned up the level on the CIM so that red and yellow lights stay lit,it never passed the tones.What I did to get it to work intermittently was have the dispatcher send out the page while I adjusted the red light to just flicker.Then it would page once and a while,but not at all if I went too far or to high in the sense of the red light on or off.I am fairly certain it is a level issue,because 8 db is hot,the alert tone from the console is -9.0 db,so there is a variation.First,I thought that I needed to increase the front porch time from 100ms to maybe 500ms in the server,under the console settings.

Your starting to sound like a complete system audio alignment is in order here. Most systems that I have run into in my travels around the country were aligned by radio tech morons. They don't understand that a TIMS unit even exists. They don't understand that audio compression will destroy the functioning of a paging operation. They don't understand that too much audio hitting the remote transmitter destroys paging audio tones and just brings up the background noise of the system users.

You might consider at this point to start with the console and work your way through to the end radio. Make sure that the audio levels leaving the console are good. You didn't say how the audio gets from the console to the remote radio. If it's through a microwave, your audio levels are even more important. If it's through leased phone lines, good luck. Go to the end point and measure it again as the audio is going into the radio. If it's a leased line, some radio tech might have jacked up the input gain to compensate for a poor telephone line with high losses. Then the phone company found the problem and the level came back up. Now your hitting the radio with too high of audio levels.

Jim

[gtriever]

And if you're using leased lines, make sure some telco moron hasn't set the gain at +8 through their system. I see this all the time from a local provider, so much so that I finally threw up my hands and just padded the darned thing at each end.

[Bill_G]

Yes, it is default at 600 ohm,when I turned up the level on the CIM so that red and yellow lights stay lit,it never passed the tones.What I did to get it to work intermittently was have the dispatcher send out the page while I adjusted the red light to just flicker.Then it would page once and a while,but not at all if I went too far or to high in the sense of the red light on or off.I am fairly certain it is a level issue,because 8 db is hot,the alert tone from the console is -9.0 db,so there is a variation.First,I thought that I needed to increase the front porch time from 100ms to maybe 500ms in the server,under the console settings.

Okay. How are you determining the voter is not passing the tones? Are you looking at the tx line leaving the appropriate site module, or are you trying to measure with a service monitor over the air?

[efc]

Hello, in response to Bill,I am placing a telephones test set on the output of the voter,I believe it is 4,and 5 on TB 1,going up to the Quantro base station,and there is no leased lines,just in house, I initially did not set up the whole system,somebody else did,so you know,hard telling what happened.When I attach the output of the console directly to the base station upstairs,not through the voter,it works,my monitor says the paging tones are 2.2 kHz on a wide band system,which is good.That same level though, the voter does not like whether the CIM light,red, is on fully or partial.Plus the speech level is about 4.0 kHz with my monitor,not through the voter.

[Bill_G]

You haven't said whether the station keys through the voter or not. That is a function of SW2-1,2,3,4,5, & 6 on the CIM. Do you have the manual and quick reference?

[d119]

And if you're using leased lines, make sure some telco moron hasn't set the gain at +8 through their system. I see this all the time from a local provider, so much so that I finally threw up my hands and just padded the darned thing at each end.

You mean you didn't just crack open the terminal unit and adjust the pads on it? *snicker*

I'm getting ready to set up my first SNV-12 on a public safety system. I have it on the bench, and I'm pretty impressed! We won't be doing any paging though, just alert tones. We'll see how goes.

I've also encountered problems with CCGE paging tones being way too hot compared to voice audio. Never did find a way to turn down just the tones. Its been more of an issue with Quick Call I (2+2) than anything else. We use quite a bit ouf that out here.

[efc]

Bill, yes it does ,the base station,does key through the the voter.SW 2, #6 sets the first SVM card up as the card that keys the transmitter, tone only,I am not using the PTT.So here is how I have it setup:

TB 13

PIN 1,2 Console in

PIN 4,5 Voted audio out to the console


TB 12

PIN 1,2 Audio in from tac site

PIN 4,5 Audio out to transmitter site

That is how I have it setup except for 6 more tac sites.Th paging tones come in on PINS 1,2 From the Centracom Gold console

[efc]

d119,yea, that is what I mean,about the tones.I don't believe that there is a typical way to turn them down.

[Bill_G]

Bill, yes it does ,the base station,does key through the the voter.SW 2, #6 sets the first SVM card up as the card that keys the transmitter, tone only,I am not using the PTT.So here is how I have it setup:

TB 13

PIN 1,2 Console in

PIN 4,5 Voted audio out to the console


TB 12

PIN 1,2 Audio in from tac site

PIN 4,5 Audio out to transmitter site

That is how I have it setup except for 6 more tac sites.Th paging tones come in on PINS 1,2 From the Centracom Gold console

Okay. The console keys up meaning the tone decoder and encoder in the voter works. The voter does not pass the control tones. It decodes, and then regens them. Does it pass voice? If it passes voice, it should also pass paging tones. If it doesn't pass voice, then you need to tackle that first. TX level to the xmitter is adjusted by R62 on the SVM card associated with that site. In this case, it sounds like you are using the first SVM. You will need the extender to dial it in perfectly, or you can rough it in by pulling the card, turning the pot, and reinserting.

[efc]

Yes, the console works perfectly fine,when not paging.Voice leaves console,enters Voter,along with HLGT,FUNCTION TONE,THEN LLGT.Al that works good,transmitter keys fine,it is when you introduce the paging tone.The paging format is QCIIB,and I also tried other paging tones for other departments,so as to isolate it to a "tones" issue.I had one of these voters once that had to have a firmware upgrade because one of the tones was too low,so I tried paging several departments,all QCIIB,......nothing.All you would hear is the voice announcement after the page,which is done by pushing the "instant tx button" after the page is sent.Now if I bypass the voter,in other words console to Base station,we are good to go.The thing that gets me is that I tried varying the input to the voter by adjusting the "console in".No success.

[Bill_G]

Well, that is truly odd. I having paging, or dtmf, or non-standard tones passing through every one of the SNV-12's I've installed. Works perfect. I'd be calling Raytheon. You'll get to talk to Benny Hillman. Great guy.

[efc]

Yes, it is odd,I will call him tom.,yes he is a great guy,talked with him before.I will post when I get this figured out so as to help others,thanks for you help Bill.

[Will]

Why is the paging tones going thru the Voter? The console should go 'in' after the Voter on the line to the transmitter.

[Bill_G]

Why is the paging tones going thru the Voter? The console should go 'in' after the Voter on the line to the transmitter.

It goes into the JPS voter the same way it goes into a SpectraTAC or a DigiTAC - on the console input. There's a CIM (console interface module) in every JPS whether you use it or not. If you do use it, it gives dispatch supervisory control over the channel as well as some limited control functionality over the voter if enabled. Paging tones originate in the same BIM as voice in a CCGE. As far as I know, there is no secondary output from a BIM just for paging tones. So, tones and voice go into the console input, not the xmitter line to the station.

This is an odd problem. There is nothing in the JPS that should prevent paging tones from passing from the console input back out the door to the xmitter through the selected SVM. If the tone control is decoded and regen'd correctly (he says it does), and voice passes correctly (he says it does), and his levels are correct (he says they are), then paging tones should pass through too. Very strange.

[efc]

Bill thank you for answering Will's question.I did not get to call Benny today on this problem,but I noticed an error that I made with this whole thing,and a strange one. I extended the "front porch" timing from 100ms to 1000ms so that I could get a better idea of this issue by separating the HLGT and paging tone.I noticed that the CIM did not even light up,Norm light and the Peak light ,that is, at the beginning of the sequence of the paging.Just like the HLGT is not being "seen".However,it works fine with voice,I did not have a tone decoder with me or a scope to see if the HLGT is distorted or wrong freq.I will check that tom.

[Bill_G]

Doh! The console is paging with PL strip during the tones. It's probably using 1850 during tones and 1950 during voice. The CIM looks at 1850 and says "nope". Look at the base station programming wild card tables for an entry to xmit without PL. Also check the CCGE config to verify. Change the CCGE to xmit paging tones with 1950, or change the CIM to decode 2175 as PTT on SW2-1,2,3.

[FMROB]

What level (level leaving console into tone remote) do you set your paging tones at vs. voice. As discussed voice level of -10db, how about paging tones?

Thanks, Rob

[efc]

Bill, thanks for the tip,I got rid of PL strip and now the voter is good to go,THANKS MUCH.

[Bill_G]

Excellent. Glad to help.