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XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

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syntor9k
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XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby syntor9k » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:59 pm

I am considering buying a used XTL5000 for P25 and wide band FM (5kHz), and some commercial use. I need 144-148, 440-450MHz, beside the commercial bands around them...

1) What do I need to look for to do the above?
2) What radio programming software do I need (version)?
3) If duel deck, single head is possible:
A) Does its just treat the other trunk unit as just more channels, or is it a Main and Sub band, or what?
B) What problems or gotcha's are there?
C) What other special software/ hardware (cables) is needed? Is there a list somewhere?
4) Can the radio do any other modes like NXDN, DMR or Fusion?
5) What else do I need to know?

wa6ylb
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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby wa6ylb » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:57 pm

1. The VHF radio model number M20KSS9PW1AN is what you want. Only one model for the entire VHF band. For UHF, you will want the Range 1 M20QSS9PW1AN. This is a 438 - 470 version radio. Stay away from the 450-512 model M20SSS9PW1AN.

2.You will want the XTL series mobile program, that is greater than the actual firmware of the radio you have in front of you. I am currently using R20.01.00. No, I will not supply a copy of this program.

3. A single head is possible with the W3 series of radio. You will need the dual operation flash code bit in both radios, in order to run them on a single W3 control head. You also will need the dual radio head cable that mates both radios to a single W3 series control head. I am not familiar with a O3 version of dual head. A typical flash code, with P25, G114 Digital display and G474 multi radio is 504001-000000-0. A radio without the multi radio bit is 500001-000000-8. See the difference?
A. A button is programmed to change radios.
B. Only one radio can be active at a time. If traffic is occuring on the other radio, you don't hear it as I recall.
C. There is a multi radio cable, for the remote mount W3 radios. It would take me a bit more searching to find the actual part number of this cable.
MULTI RADIO (from the ordering guide for dual radios on XTL5000)

The Multi Radio Feature offers the capability to control TWO (2) XTL 5000 mobile radios from ONE (1) W3 style control head.
The Multi Radio Feature is NOT compatible with W4, W5, W7, or W9 control heads.

The Multi Radio System consists of two XTL 5000 mobile radios in different bands configured for operation with a W3 Control Head,
two speakers, one W3 Control Head, and associated cabling.
This configuration is NOT compatible with W4, W5, W7, or W9 control heads.
Typically, the primary radio is ordered with the necessary Multi Radio software option, the necessary Multi Radio hardware option,
a speaker, an antenna, a mounting option, any additional radio software features and the W3 control head. The secondary radio is
ordered with the necessary Multi Radio software option, a speaker, an antenna, a mounting option, any additional radio software
features and the no control head option.
The options below are orderable from the Multi Radio Section.
Must select the Multi Radio Software (G474) on each mobile radio used in the Multi Radio System.
Must select the W3 Control Head Software (G92) on each mobile radio used in the Multi Radio System.
Must select the W3 Control Head Hardware (G72) on the Primary mobile radio used in the Multi Radio System.
Must select the Multi Radio HHCH W3 Hardware (W845)on the Primary mobile radio used in the Multi Radio System.
Must select the No Control Head option (G88) on the Auxiliary mobile radio used in the Multi Radio System.
A typical order configuration is as follows:
Mobile #1 (Primary) Mobile #2 (Auxiliary)
M20KTS9PW1AN (VHF HP) M20QTS9PW1AN (UHF HP)
G474 G474
G92 G92
G72 G88
W845 etc.
etc...

The following items are only orderable with the Multi Radio configuration:



Description Nomenclature APC Price
ENH: MULTI RADIO SW G474 570 $750.00
Requires option G92.
ADD: MULTI RADIO HDW INTFACE W3 W845 500 $1,300.00
Requires Option G72


4.No. Analog and or P25 - thats it.

5. You may be better off to have two O3 radio heads, on two seperate radios. It will be harder to find the multi radio flash code in any random radio you find for sale. I perfer the O3 control head over the W3 model.
B.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby motorola_otaku » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:12 pm

wa6ylb wrote: Stay away from the 450-512 model M20SSS9PW1AN.

Just curious, why? I've owned several over the years and never had a problem with using them in the 440-450 range, P25 and analog.
When exposed to Rapid Fire Growth or Thermal Emergency, two things are lost:
1. Ability to use fine motor skills
2. Presence of mind

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syntor9k
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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby syntor9k » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:33 pm

The problem, as far as I know the XTL5000 are not supported any more.

Sounds like two heads are better than one. I'll have to rethink my options. I need at least, that the Aux radio scanned, full-duplex is nice, but not required.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby syntor9k » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:47 pm

So If I choose two heads (one each for VHF and UHF), is there any other reason that a XTL-2500 wound not work (what would I loose), Vs the 5000?

Would this one work OK for example?
M21KTM9PW1AN

Whats the difference between a M5 and 05 Heads?

IS there an option to program a button for hi/low RF PO? RSSI or some sort of paragraph for signal strength?

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby N4KVE » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:49 pm

A 2500 would work just fine. The benefits of the 5000 would be no help to you. 2500's can easily be converted to 5000's. It seems some of my 5000's started life as 2500's. I did not know that when I bought them, but I'm not complaining. And the range 1 UHF radio's coverage is 380-470 MHZ. Besides, I prefer the black control head of the 2500 vs the silver/black 5000 head. GARY.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby Jim202 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:38 am

syntor9k wrote:I am considering buying a used XTL5000 for P25 and wide band FM (5kHz), and some commercial use. I need 144-148, 440-450MHz, beside the commercial bands around them...

1) What do I need to look for to do the above?
2) What radio programming software do I need (version)?
3) If duel deck, single head is possible:
A) Does its just treat the other trunk unit as just more channels, or is it a Main and Sub band, or what?
B) What problems or gotcha's are there?
C) What other special software/ hardware (cables) is needed? Is there a list somewhere?
4) Can the radio do any other modes like NXDN, DMR or Fusion?
5) What else do I need to know?


The first thing you need to do is to define exactly what your intentions are of just how your looking to use this radio or radios.

They will not do the NXDN, DMR or fusion. Your looking at FM and P25. With that said, you will run into problems if your looking to do both Public Safety and ham Radio. This is because after a certain version of the firmware and software the radios will only do narrow band. The other thing that our beloved Mother M did was screw the pooch on multi PL after about version R15 with the software. R15 would let you have a fixed PL on a per channel basis. You could program a button on the control head to select multi PL. This would then allow you to select which PL you wanted on TX if that was the way you set it up. But in the newer software versions, if you selected multi Pl when you set it up, it would gray out the fixed PL settings. Not what I would call swift from the 2 year old mentality of the Motorola software programmers.

The next issue is the narrow / wide band programming. With the FCC mandate, after the passing of the FCC deadline, all radios could only be sold with narrow band ability. Motorola did have a workaround and a software patch to allow certain users that stayed wideband to be able to still program their radios for wide band use. But Motorola made you jump through hoops and sign your life away to get the wideband patch.

I like to use the 05 control head. It provides me with the flexibility I am looking for. As I travel around the country a bunch, I program up the up to 50 zones you can get in the head for the different regions I travel through. Be it ham or public safety, you do get that flexibility. Again, you need to be careful here as a firmware update can cause you to loose the multi PL feature, like what happened to me. I was at one point limited on the max zones and did a firmware upgrade. This also forced me into a software update. In doing so, I lost my multi PL select ability.

Let me say one thing about the multi PL select before I get jumped on by some nit pickers on here. Yes you do have the multi PL ability, but it takes away the ability to still maintain the fixed PL ability when your not in the multi PL selection mode. It will force you to select the needed PL for all your channels that the PL does not need to be changed on. In other words, if you select the check box for multi Pl on a channel, you will have to make sure you have the required PL tone selected for that channel to function correctly. This is not what I call user friendly. It would require you to maintain a list of the required PL tone for every channel in your radio once you check the box for those channels. Nope I am not going to have to go through that hassle because Motorola didn't see the need to keep it working like it was before they screwed the pooch on their software update.

One more comment. You can program a button on the control head for high / low power. This lets you go to what would be half power of the radio by pressing that button.

So the bottom line here is be careful what you ask for. You may get some added features, but can loose some features in the process.

You can program a button on the control head for scan. Set another button for adjusting the squelch on the channel you have selected. But you need to check a box for allowing the squelch to be set on a per channel basis.

The 05 control head has a round 4 selection rocker switch. This allows you to actually have more selections that you can get to by scrolling off the original screen to get to the additional selections. Like setting the screen colors and a bunch of other selections you can add such as nuisance delete in scan. It's a very flexible control head.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby N4KVE » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:17 am

Jim202 wrote:
The next issue is the narrow / wide band programming. With the FCC mandate, after the passing of the FCC deadline, all radios could only be sold with narrow band ability. Motorola did have a workaround and a software patch to allow certain users that stayed wideband to be able to still program their radios for wide band use. But Motorola made you jump through hoops and sign your life away to get the wideband patch.
ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. What you are describing is for their DMR/XPR series of radios. The XTL/XTS has no such policy, & there is no wide band patch for them. Mine have the newest FW, 2.05.09, & do wide band just fine as is. No wide band patch exists for these radios. Jim is confusing the XPR with the XTL. While the XPR DOES require a wide band patch, the XTL does NOT. GARY.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby C17LVFD » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:06 am

N4KVE wrote:
Jim202 wrote:
The next issue is the narrow / wide band programming. With the FCC mandate, after the passing of the FCC deadline, all radios could only be sold with narrow band ability. Motorola did have a workaround and a software patch to allow certain users that stayed wideband to be able to still program their radios for wide band use. But Motorola made you jump through hoops and sign your life away to get the wideband patch.
ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. What you are describing is for their DMR/XPR series of radios. The XTL/XTS has no such policy, & there is no wide band patch for them. Mine have the newest FW, 2.05.09, & do wide band just fine as is. No wide band patch exists for these radios. Jim is confusing the XPR with the XTL. While the XPR DOES require a wide band patch, the XTL does NOT. GARY.


I will respectfully disagree.

XTL/XTS radios sold after 2013 to my knowledge all had the flashcode feature "Q507" - 12.5kHz FCC Mandate. You could have it bypassed by providing documentation as to why you still needed wideband capability (FCC Exemption for example). I manage many ASTRO25 radios that came with the FCC Mandate 12.5kHz option that was not requested or wanted. An ibutton flash "upgrade" removed the Q507 but not without a lot of paperwork.

Also, latest firmware for the XTL/XTS series is R20.50.09... not 2.05.09. The revision of firmware for the XTL/XTS does not affect the narrowband/wideband capability... it's a feature in the feature set/flashcode.

A simple look at the flashcode will tell you if the radio your looking at buying has Q507 feature in the flash. If it has Q507, keep looking for one that doesn't... No Q507 = wideband/narrowband capable.

Best of luck,
Seth
Seth

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby N4KVE » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:55 am

Sorry, typo. My radios do have 20.50.09. But as long as Q507 is not part of your flash code, by upgrading to the newest FW will not suddenly make a radio narrow band only like the XPR series of radios. Even my APX8000 does not have Q507, but has the newest FW, & is still wide band. GARY.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby Jim202 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:49 pm

N4KVE wrote:
Jim202 wrote:
The next issue is the narrow / wide band programming. With the FCC mandate, after the passing of the FCC deadline, all radios could only be sold with narrow band ability. Motorola did have a workaround and a software patch to allow certain users that stayed wideband to be able to still program their radios for wide band use. But Motorola made you jump through hoops and sign your life away to get the wideband patch.
ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. What you are describing is for their DMR/XPR series of radios. The XTL/XTS has no such policy, & there is no wide band patch for them. Mine have the newest FW, 2.05.09, & do wide band just fine as is. No wide band patch exists for these radios. Jim is confusing the XPR with the XTL. While the XPR DOES require a wide band patch, the XTL does NOT. GARY.


If I am so wrong then explain to me why the 5 XTL 2500 and 5000 radios I have all doing the same thing with the 05 control heads. Think you need to go back and consider just what radios your talking about.

Jim

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby N4KVE » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:07 pm

DUP.
Last edited by N4KVE on Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby N4KVE » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:22 pm

Jim202 wrote: This is because after a certain version of the firmware and software the radios will only do narrow band. The next issue is the narrow / wide band programming. But Motorola made you jump through hoops and sign your life away to get the wideband patch.
All I am saying, is ALL 6 of my XTL5000/2500's with 05 heads, & the newest FW [20.50.09] all do wide band w/o any wide band patch. The wide band patch was for XPR radios that DID go narrow band after a FW upgrade, & DO have a wide band patch/EID. GARY

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby Astro Spectra » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:55 pm

Gentlemen, it's pretty simple:

If you don't have Q507 then there is no restriction.

If you do have Q507 and modern firmware then the radio is restricted to 12.5 kHz on frequencies that align to Part 90 (tested on VHF).

Even with Q507 and modern firmware, non Part 90 freqs (such as those used by the marine service Part 80 VHF and amateur 2M) can still be programmed as 25 kHz.

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Re: XTL5000 P25 and wideband FM (5kHz) and other questions...

Postby syntor9k » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:34 pm

While I can't make those radios wound work in my car (I might use NX-5700/5800 radio). But the XTL5000/2500 would work at home. This is my next project. But I think I need to find a local expert I think...
Thanks for the help everyone...


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