Don't want to say "I told 'ya so, but..."
I placed a post on this site well over a month ago wherein I warned that the new UCM encryption modules with DES-OFB (even without AES) absolutely require a KVL 3000 Plus (KVL 3000 will NOT work). Many folks (including you, r0f---PLEASE don't take offense) said that I was wrong. I knew my facts since they are clearly spelled out in the R3 for the encryption modules and the KVL 3000 Plus. There were many posts saying I was wrong, even including folks claiming to have received brand new XTS radios that they loaded O.K. with their old T3011DX KVL's. I said at the time that this won't work if you have the UCM and current Host/DSP. Notice that ALL of the previous modules have been MD'ed since about November 1, 2002, and ALL have been replaced with the new UCM.
One advantage here is that Motorola has just DROPPED the price of the UCM with AES only (e.g., no DES-OFB). For instance, check the current R3 prices on encryption for the ASTRO Spectra and you will see that it is $625 for the UCM with just AES versus $749 for the UCM with DES-OFB. And, since the current Host/DSP with these UCM modules REQUIRES the KVL 3000 Plus, it would now be dumb to go with DES-OFB, unless the agencies you interact with are using the old DES-OFB. The Fed Boys are RAPIDLY converting to the 256 bit AES (as opposed to the easy to break 56 bit DES-OFB). Keep in mind that Motorola is trying to encourage a shift to AES. In the next few years, I would bet that DES-OFB goes the way of SECURENET---dead! Got to get with the program and go AES---tubes, CW and DES-OFB are all Model_T's)
Larry
Warning to ASTRO users
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ASTROMODAT
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XDCLabs.COM
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Correction. M does care about their customers, they just don't care about you, or for that matter any individual buyer. If you were a major agency/department that wanted to upgrade, then they would have warned you about incompatibalities and made a deal with you for module upgrades.
Why did you upgrade to such a new version? Did you just upgrade Host and not DSP? Something doesn't look right here. Who did the upgrade? Ok, don't tell me....I don't wanna know.
I'm trying to remember why it says OLD EMC. Well, I know why, but I can remember the reasoning. I'll have to think about it. I thought there was a way around it. Let me think...I'll get back to you.
Why did you upgrade to such a new version? Did you just upgrade Host and not DSP? Something doesn't look right here. Who did the upgrade? Ok, don't tell me....I don't wanna know.
I'm trying to remember why it says OLD EMC. Well, I know why, but I can remember the reasoning. I'll have to think about it. I thought there was a way around it. Let me think...I'll get back to you.
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XDCLabs.COM
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ASTROMODAT
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I was thinking about this a bit further, r0f, and I was mulling over how this could have happened.
The ONLY way you can order any type/flavor of a FLASHPort upgrade kit for an XTS or ASTRO Spectra (or for ANY Motorola product) is via Motorola Sales. These FLASHPort upgrade software kits are NOT available through Parts! I would certainly think that this stuff would be illegal if sold on eBay, so the only legitimate source is via Motorola, and specifically, through Motorola Sales, and NOT Motorola Parts.
I suppose that the other way this coulod occur is if you had sent your radio into the Service Depot for some other unrelated service. They always uplift the Host/DSP to current if they are servicing it. Maybe this is what happened in your case? That's one of the reasons I had posted my comments on this issue last month.
Your Motorola Salesperson uses his/her R3 to order the FLASHPort upgrade---they have to, as it shows the various TXXXX kits, depending on the status (e.g., Host/DSP Version) and the Options installed on your specific radio. They require the Model Number and FLASHCode of your radio, and serial number. All of this information is entered on the resulting STIC-1 detailed Order Form. They can't prepare a STIC-1 without all sorts of detail from the FLASHPort Upgrade section of the R3. Herein it spells out all of the Option codes associated with the particular TXXXX upgrade kit, which are dependent on the exact flavor of your radio (e.g., ASTRO Ready, Conventional, etc.).
Sounds like you had a simple software "Refresh," which is Motorola's name for upgrading to the current Host/DSP.
I can assure you that in the R3 under "FLASHPort Upgrades" and in the R3 under "Encryption," they have HUGE WARNINGS in BIG BOLD GIGANTIC print talking about this issue of the Host/DSP compatibility with the new UCM, and the tie in to the KVL 3000 Plus.
It would be hard to understand how he/she missed this, if you indeed ordered the Refreshh Uplift through Motorola Sales. Here's one advantage of working through Motorola Sales!
BTW, it is interesting to note that the KVL 3000 Plus will be needed for more than just loading encryption keys. For instance, to FLASHPort upgrade the DIU 3000 from 4Q2001 to current, you need not only the $700 software refresh, but you also need the KVL 3000 Plus to work in unison with your DOS PC in loading the current Host/DSP and to activate the UCM cartridge, let alone to load the actual specific keys into the DIU UCM. You need both! This is the first time I've seen a KVL needed for a software uplift. Prior to this, they were strictly needed to load keys. No more. KEWL---kudoes to the Motorola Marketing guys! You got to admit, they give Mr. Gates a run for his money in this regards! Got to respect that.
BTW #2, r0f, it sounds like you sent your XTS into the Service Depot for the refresh. They charge $60 for an upgrade that you could have done yourself. Perhaps you had paid the $375 flat rate for various other stuff, so their loading of the uplift was essentially free?
Anyways, your example goes to show how one needs to double check first on this stuff as these compatibility issues are starting to get a bit more trickey than in the past!
I guess this is what they call "Live and Learn!" No sense in stressing your heart on this any further, r0f. It doesn't do any good, and it is hard on your heart---you need that to live, and you can't take the AS with you...
Larry
The ONLY way you can order any type/flavor of a FLASHPort upgrade kit for an XTS or ASTRO Spectra (or for ANY Motorola product) is via Motorola Sales. These FLASHPort upgrade software kits are NOT available through Parts! I would certainly think that this stuff would be illegal if sold on eBay, so the only legitimate source is via Motorola, and specifically, through Motorola Sales, and NOT Motorola Parts.
I suppose that the other way this coulod occur is if you had sent your radio into the Service Depot for some other unrelated service. They always uplift the Host/DSP to current if they are servicing it. Maybe this is what happened in your case? That's one of the reasons I had posted my comments on this issue last month.
Your Motorola Salesperson uses his/her R3 to order the FLASHPort upgrade---they have to, as it shows the various TXXXX kits, depending on the status (e.g., Host/DSP Version) and the Options installed on your specific radio. They require the Model Number and FLASHCode of your radio, and serial number. All of this information is entered on the resulting STIC-1 detailed Order Form. They can't prepare a STIC-1 without all sorts of detail from the FLASHPort Upgrade section of the R3. Herein it spells out all of the Option codes associated with the particular TXXXX upgrade kit, which are dependent on the exact flavor of your radio (e.g., ASTRO Ready, Conventional, etc.).
Sounds like you had a simple software "Refresh," which is Motorola's name for upgrading to the current Host/DSP.
I can assure you that in the R3 under "FLASHPort Upgrades" and in the R3 under "Encryption," they have HUGE WARNINGS in BIG BOLD GIGANTIC print talking about this issue of the Host/DSP compatibility with the new UCM, and the tie in to the KVL 3000 Plus.
It would be hard to understand how he/she missed this, if you indeed ordered the Refreshh Uplift through Motorola Sales. Here's one advantage of working through Motorola Sales!
BTW, it is interesting to note that the KVL 3000 Plus will be needed for more than just loading encryption keys. For instance, to FLASHPort upgrade the DIU 3000 from 4Q2001 to current, you need not only the $700 software refresh, but you also need the KVL 3000 Plus to work in unison with your DOS PC in loading the current Host/DSP and to activate the UCM cartridge, let alone to load the actual specific keys into the DIU UCM. You need both! This is the first time I've seen a KVL needed for a software uplift. Prior to this, they were strictly needed to load keys. No more. KEWL---kudoes to the Motorola Marketing guys! You got to admit, they give Mr. Gates a run for his money in this regards! Got to respect that.
BTW #2, r0f, it sounds like you sent your XTS into the Service Depot for the refresh. They charge $60 for an upgrade that you could have done yourself. Perhaps you had paid the $375 flat rate for various other stuff, so their loading of the uplift was essentially free?
Anyways, your example goes to show how one needs to double check first on this stuff as these compatibility issues are starting to get a bit more trickey than in the past!
I guess this is what they call "Live and Learn!" No sense in stressing your heart on this any further, r0f. It doesn't do any good, and it is hard on your heart---you need that to live, and you can't take the AS with you...
Larry
If you had your radio cycled thru the depot, and it came back this way, give them a call and they will take care of you. If it was another way, you may be on your own. I do know that with my DVP-XL module, it will show OLD EMC (V.06!) and will not support certain advanced secure features, but everything works fine. The AS3 has the current HOST/DSP and was last serviced by the Depot. Loads find with a DX loader.
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
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XDCLabs.COM
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XDCLabs.COM
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Strange....the newer firmware is designed to notify the user when using a pre 3.x version module (aka EMC. UCMs are 3.x and newer). This is because the user needs to be warned that the EMC is not capable of CKR key management. So that part is working fine. What beats me is that the keys won't load. Keep in mind that the keys pass directly to the module from the KVL. I know, because I've built my own keyloader from scratch. So the version of firmware should have nothing to do with the keyloading.
Ok, answer another question. When you attach the KVL, does the radio display "Keyloading"?
Ok, answer another question. When you attach the KVL, does the radio display "Keyloading"?
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ASTROMODAT
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xdc, youy might want to thoroughly and carefully review the current R3 (Oct - Nov, 2002) on this subject.
Look under "Software Upgrades/FLASHport," and also under "Subscriber Software Upgrades/FLASHport" and then under that section look under "ASTRO Spectra FLASHport Upgrade." You get the hang of it. It is addressed in great detail under these various sections. It is also addressed very specifically under the "Secure Solutions" section, and then under the DIU 3000 and the KVL 3000 Plus, as well as under the ASTRO P & M radios within this section.
Tired of typing, but if you spend an hour or so you will get the picture. It has all sorts of notes/warnings about the UCM and Host/DSP compatibilities, plus there is lots of information on the conditions requiring the KVL 3000 Plus.
Might save you a lot of time.
Larry
Look under "Software Upgrades/FLASHport," and also under "Subscriber Software Upgrades/FLASHport" and then under that section look under "ASTRO Spectra FLASHport Upgrade." You get the hang of it. It is addressed in great detail under these various sections. It is also addressed very specifically under the "Secure Solutions" section, and then under the DIU 3000 and the KVL 3000 Plus, as well as under the ASTRO P & M radios within this section.
Tired of typing, but if you spend an hour or so you will get the picture. It has all sorts of notes/warnings about the UCM and Host/DSP compatibilities, plus there is lots of information on the conditions requiring the KVL 3000 Plus.
Might save you a lot of time.
Larry
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XDCLabs.COM
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ASTROMODAT
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Vedddy Interestink....
This is very interesting - it sounds like the new modules will not do the Motorola ASN keyloading protocol - only the new APCO 25 keyloading protocol.
That is vedddy interestink... If M is going to be forcing everybody over to the new encryption modules, and the new encryption modules will require APCO-25 keyloading protocol, then I may not have to worry as much about supporting the older ASN protocol myself. Since M wants $$$ to give me what little documentation they have on the ASN protocol, this might not (from my limited perspective) be a bad thing.
I'll have to keep an eye on this thread...
That is vedddy interestink... If M is going to be forcing everybody over to the new encryption modules, and the new encryption modules will require APCO-25 keyloading protocol, then I may not have to worry as much about supporting the older ASN protocol myself. Since M wants $$$ to give me what little documentation they have on the ASN protocol, this might not (from my limited perspective) be a bad thing.
I'll have to keep an eye on this thread...
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
Well, the new XTS3000's and Astro Spectra's are in, and they should be programmed up this week. They have the new DVP-XL UCM modules in them, so we will see if they will load the keys.....we were told they will. We will see!
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
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XDCLabs.COM
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ASTROMODAT
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I think it's important to keep in mind that this is one case of antecdotal evidence that the old T3011DX workhorse may still have a few last gasps of air left in its old lungs, if you are lucky. Kind of like driving fast in the snow with bald tires---for a while, you can be "fat, dumb and happy," and everything "seems" to be fine. You can even call Grandma on the cell phone and report "All is well." The next minute, you are off the road and upside down, with your tires spinning in the air. Been there, and definately done that (it was kind of fun, too!).
Same deal here. Motorola is saying in their publications that you need the KVL 3000 Plus for the current UCM to be fully compatable with ASTRO P & M radios that have the current Host/DSP loaded. However, that's not to say that there may be additional antecdotal evidence wherein folks will discover various other specific combinations where the old T3011DX can still load keys (under some conditions). And, for hobbyist use, I say "Go for it!" But, when you later on down the road add that one KEWL new feature and it bombs out, one better have a known good plug for recovery! In the meantime, for hobby use and the like, who cares--- if you can get the eBay parts radio to work with the T3011DX, Go For It! It'll save 'ya 5 grand or so.
Still, I can't hardly imagine a company buying new ASTRO's trying to leverage their old T3011s just to save on the KVL 3000 Plus, which is chump change compared to the tons of money they'd be spending on an ASTRO system, even a small one. Someone posted that a fire dept is going to try to use their old keyloaders. (Except for huge systems, a single KVL is usually adequate.) As a tax payer, I say fine, but when the radios later on bomb out with some combination, then who pays for all of the radio re-work---the tax payers! I guess I'm not too cynical---but, I just don't believe Motorola does this for a joke. There are all sorts of combinations that they need to assure will work, or the big user will call them to task. Again, for hobbyist use, if it works, what the heck!
The main issue here is that r0f is happy---that's all that counts!
Alls well that ends well!
Larry
Same deal here. Motorola is saying in their publications that you need the KVL 3000 Plus for the current UCM to be fully compatable with ASTRO P & M radios that have the current Host/DSP loaded. However, that's not to say that there may be additional antecdotal evidence wherein folks will discover various other specific combinations where the old T3011DX can still load keys (under some conditions). And, for hobbyist use, I say "Go for it!" But, when you later on down the road add that one KEWL new feature and it bombs out, one better have a known good plug for recovery! In the meantime, for hobby use and the like, who cares--- if you can get the eBay parts radio to work with the T3011DX, Go For It! It'll save 'ya 5 grand or so.
Still, I can't hardly imagine a company buying new ASTRO's trying to leverage their old T3011s just to save on the KVL 3000 Plus, which is chump change compared to the tons of money they'd be spending on an ASTRO system, even a small one. Someone posted that a fire dept is going to try to use their old keyloaders. (Except for huge systems, a single KVL is usually adequate.) As a tax payer, I say fine, but when the radios later on bomb out with some combination, then who pays for all of the radio re-work---the tax payers! I guess I'm not too cynical---but, I just don't believe Motorola does this for a joke. There are all sorts of combinations that they need to assure will work, or the big user will call them to task. Again, for hobbyist use, if it works, what the heck!
The main issue here is that r0f is happy---that's all that counts!
Alls well that ends well!
Larry
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Elroy Jetson
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Hi, guys!
It's been a while since I jumped in...actually, since I even visited!
(I've been very busy and am not "radio active" right now!)
I wish I'd seen this thread when it started. I could have told you, Shaun,
that disabling CKR key management would solve your problem.
There's something about CKR and some EMC/firmware combinations that make it KVL3000 dependent when it's enabled. I don't know why they set it up like that or even if it's a bug, but I learned that one a long time ago
and could have answered if I'd bothered to visit.
Just one thing, guys....do me a favor and watch the language. I'm seeing too many
's to suit my tender sensibilities. (ha ha ha!)
So, while I've got your attention, please feel free to update me re: Astro products. What's new, and what's been discontinued, as of now, and have any of the 'basement flashers' been tracked down and nailed to the Tree of Woe yet?
Elroy
It's been a while since I jumped in...actually, since I even visited!
(I've been very busy and am not "radio active" right now!)
I wish I'd seen this thread when it started. I could have told you, Shaun,
that disabling CKR key management would solve your problem.
There's something about CKR and some EMC/firmware combinations that make it KVL3000 dependent when it's enabled. I don't know why they set it up like that or even if it's a bug, but I learned that one a long time ago
and could have answered if I'd bothered to visit.
Just one thing, guys....do me a favor and watch the language. I'm seeing too many
's to suit my tender sensibilities. (ha ha ha!)So, while I've got your attention, please feel free to update me re: Astro products. What's new, and what's been discontinued, as of now, and have any of the 'basement flashers' been tracked down and nailed to the Tree of Woe yet?
Elroy