System Key Question
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My company (a large maintenance company) is switching to a 800 meg smart zone system in the next few months and I will be responsible for maintaining and issueing the radios. My question is, will motorola sell us the system key so we can program our radios ourselves or are we stuck paying Motorola every time we want to change a radio?
Also are system keys unique to each system or will one system key access any system? I ask this question because if we are not allowed a system key can we use a shop other than Motorola to reprogram our radios.
Our Motorola sales person always defer these questions because we beleived that he is trying to sell us the BIG package.
Also are system keys unique to each system or will one system key access any system? I ask this question because if we are not allowed a system key can we use a shop other than Motorola to reprogram our radios.
Our Motorola sales person always defer these questions because we beleived that he is trying to sell us the BIG package.
- Elroy Jetson
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- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
I just want to mention that if your company owns the system, your company owns the system key as well, and may protect or distribute it as they see fit. And incidentally, system keys are not copyrighted. I've examined several and they're just short codeplug fragments without copyrights. So if your company has ownership of the system and will allow access to the key, then you're set.
Elroy
Elroy
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System Key
Just curious, new comer to the 800 mhz equipment, any way of changing the information of the radio (i.e. MTX 810) without having the system key to change the trunking information?
If so how?
Thanks
Lou
If so how?
Thanks
Lou
> That said it is possible to have systems belonging to different
> entities running as a simulcast system using the same system key.
And, as a historical note, back in the Type I days, many sys keys were interchangeable...
> Just curious, new comer to the 800 mhz equipment, any way of
> changing the information of the radio (i.e. MTX 810) without having
> the system key to change the trunking information?
The short answer is "No".
The longer answer is "Maybe"...
There is some information on creating your own system keys here:
http://www.batlabs.com/syskey.html
Also, Motorola LAB RSS will allow the programming of radios without needing a system key.
> does that suggest then that having a system key for another
> system you aren't authorized on (ie, programming a radio to
> listen on a public safety system) isn't a no-no as most seem to
> think?
Yeah, I'd like to hear more comments on this as well. Copyright notwithstanding, /\/\ clearly belives that the system key is either their property, or the property of the system owner, and that any unauthorized use or posession is illegal.
> entities running as a simulcast system using the same system key.
And, as a historical note, back in the Type I days, many sys keys were interchangeable...
> Just curious, new comer to the 800 mhz equipment, any way of
> changing the information of the radio (i.e. MTX 810) without having
> the system key to change the trunking information?
The short answer is "No".
The longer answer is "Maybe"...
There is some information on creating your own system keys here:
http://www.batlabs.com/syskey.html
Also, Motorola LAB RSS will allow the programming of radios without needing a system key.
> does that suggest then that having a system key for another
> system you aren't authorized on (ie, programming a radio to
> listen on a public safety system) isn't a no-no as most seem to
> think?
Yeah, I'd like to hear more comments on this as well. Copyright notwithstanding, /\/\ clearly belives that the system key is either their property, or the property of the system owner, and that any unauthorized use or posession is illegal.
Well, it's not completly impossible to find a system key generator program out there. That would get you in hot water with Motorola, for sure. But, what about if you took an exsisting system key and modified it using the technique described on batlabs to make it work with your particular system ID?
If system ID's really are free-game to anyone the System Admin wants to grant access to...anyone here a System Admin feel like releasing their System Key into the "public domain" of batlabs, so anyone can download it and modify it with a hex editor?
That's a heck of a stretch mind you.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you do a fresh instal of RSS, does it not put a default system key for 0001 (SYS0001.KEY) or something similar to that? If it did, then you're all set, just hack that.
What was the original idea of a System Key anyway? To prevent someone from buying a radio and mucking around? Seems to me it's a pretty cheap way to provide security.
-Mike
If system ID's really are free-game to anyone the System Admin wants to grant access to...anyone here a System Admin feel like releasing their System Key into the "public domain" of batlabs, so anyone can download it and modify it with a hex editor?
That's a heck of a stretch mind you.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you do a fresh instal of RSS, does it not put a default system key for 0001 (SYS0001.KEY) or something similar to that? If it did, then you're all set, just hack that.
What was the original idea of a System Key anyway? To prevent someone from buying a radio and mucking around? Seems to me it's a pretty cheap way to provide security.
-Mike
VoIP: BAT-MIKE (228-6453)
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I shall correct you. The RSS does not create a system key in any way, shape, or form. The default radio codeplugs from the factory have system '0001' in them, and the RSS still shows it as 'disabled' in the system key line.ExKa|iBuR wrote:
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you do a fresh instal of RSS, does it not put a default system key for 0001 (SYS0001.KEY) or something similar to that?
-Mike
Yes, the system key is Motorola's front line defense against someone legitimately loading a single radio onto a system, then acquiring 30 more & programming them onto the system with the same ID, thus not paying the monthly fees for them. This happens all the time with LTR systems. The system key made this next to impossible for a long while...until LAB RSS & the System Key Generator were leaked out.ExKa|iBuR wrote:
What was the original idea of a System Key anyway? To prevent someone from buying a radio and mucking around? Seems to me it's a pretty cheap way to provide security.
-Mike
As far as the copyright on the system keys, it's true there's no copyright info in the file itself. However, when you purchase a trunked system from Motorola, the system key isn't 'automatically' included! It's a seperate item you need to request & purchase. I haven't seen the actual paperwork involved, but it would be foolish to think Motorola wouldn't protect their system keys with some sort of license agreement or other legal mumbo jumbo. I don't believe the system admins can do whatever they wish with the key, and are bound by legal terms.
Todd
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
The only 'Master key' that I was ever aware of is the FTR hardkey. One of those would open the door to programming any system you wanted using standard release RSS.
As far as I know, the FTR key has never been duplicated. It probably doesn't matter much these days anyway. I don't think the new CPS will recognize the hard key.
I believe that Motorola is revising the entire system key process to give the system administrator better control over his system with tools like key files that allow programming of a specific radio or key files that expire. Organizations that spend millions of dollars for public safety trunking systems expect to have complete control over their assets.
As far as I know, the FTR key has never been duplicated. It probably doesn't matter much these days anyway. I don't think the new CPS will recognize the hard key.
I believe that Motorola is revising the entire system key process to give the system administrator better control over his system with tools like key files that allow programming of a specific radio or key files that expire. Organizations that spend millions of dollars for public safety trunking systems expect to have complete control over their assets.
My two bits worth:
System Keys:
The actual "System Key" is a very small file, and it is generated from the System ID. Some sort of simple mathematical function with the hex.
If you just happen to have a subscriber unit with the last two digits in the system ID identical you can have limited access to a system.
If the first two are XX, then only the last two count, and you can then have full access.
For example Mt Barragada MOSMR on Guam, had the same last two digits as the Kona, Hawaii MOSMR, as well as the same control channels, and connect tone. Motorola shop was always "fleet 200"
It was possible to make one interconnect call, or inniate a transmission
before the radio discovered that it was on a "foreign system".
This is possible because the subscriber unit decodes the last two digits first, if they match, then the other data such as channel assignments are decoded, then the first two digits are checked. The reason for this is for fast response.
There are several programs such as "MAKEY" that generate the system key from the System ID.
Needless to say the old key system is largely no more effective on security than a 2135 radio key is for your radio.
Depending on the radio model certain parameters are only accessable with a system key, "Lab" RSS, or FTR hard key.
Maintenance functions do not generally require a hard key, and
usuially non-system parameters may be changed. (The maybe mentioned above)
System Keys:
The actual "System Key" is a very small file, and it is generated from the System ID. Some sort of simple mathematical function with the hex.
If you just happen to have a subscriber unit with the last two digits in the system ID identical you can have limited access to a system.
If the first two are XX, then only the last two count, and you can then have full access.
For example Mt Barragada MOSMR on Guam, had the same last two digits as the Kona, Hawaii MOSMR, as well as the same control channels, and connect tone. Motorola shop was always "fleet 200"
It was possible to make one interconnect call, or inniate a transmission
before the radio discovered that it was on a "foreign system".
This is possible because the subscriber unit decodes the last two digits first, if they match, then the other data such as channel assignments are decoded, then the first two digits are checked. The reason for this is for fast response.
There are several programs such as "MAKEY" that generate the system key from the System ID.
Needless to say the old key system is largely no more effective on security than a 2135 radio key is for your radio.
Depending on the radio model certain parameters are only accessable with a system key, "Lab" RSS, or FTR hard key.
Maintenance functions do not generally require a hard key, and
usuially non-system parameters may be changed. (The maybe mentioned above)
Aloha, Bernie
- N4DES
- was KS4VT
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The System Key while not copyrighted, is considered a proprietary item sold to the system owner as part of the system.
If the system owner of the system you will be on will trust you with the key then you can do your own modifications. Maybe if you prepared a non-dislocure agreement for the system owner stating that:
1. you won't duplicate ID's
2. won't assign talk-groups your not authorized for, and
3. won't make copies to distribute and will keep it locked in a safe when not in use, could convice him to allow you to do your own radio maintenance.
It's usually easier to ask for permission in this case than ask for forgiveness especially if you get caught doing something your not supposed to.
my 2 cents worth.
If the system owner of the system you will be on will trust you with the key then you can do your own modifications. Maybe if you prepared a non-dislocure agreement for the system owner stating that:
1. you won't duplicate ID's
2. won't assign talk-groups your not authorized for, and
3. won't make copies to distribute and will keep it locked in a safe when not in use, could convice him to allow you to do your own radio maintenance.
It's usually easier to ask for permission in this case than ask for forgiveness especially if you get caught doing something your not supposed to.
my 2 cents worth.
Well, one wouldn't really need a "master system key", as you can use lab - which doesn't require a key at all.
Once Motorola introduces this supposed encrypted system key - we're SOL. But, that's not going to happen anytime soon I wouldn't imagine.
-Mike
Once Motorola introduces this supposed encrypted system key - we're SOL. But, that's not going to happen anytime soon I wouldn't imagine.
-Mike
VoIP: BAT-MIKE (228-6453)
Are YOU hamsexy?
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My two bits worth:
I think Ben has the .USR file in mind.
When this file is placed in the same directory as your garden variety RSS, you then have the "FTR", or depot version of the RSS.
Unfortunately, the .USR file seems to be only compatable with the type, and version of the RSS it was created for.
Not that I have experimented with this......
I think Ben has the .USR file in mind.
When this file is placed in the same directory as your garden variety RSS, you then have the "FTR", or depot version of the RSS.
Unfortunately, the .USR file seems to be only compatable with the type, and version of the RSS it was created for.
Not that I have experimented with this......
Aloha, Bernie
- N4DES
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The Hardware System key is actually going to be either a serial or USB device that will plug into the programming computer to work with the CPS software in addition to the software system key.ExKa|iBuR wrote: Once Motorola introduces this supposed encrypted system key - we're SOL. But, that's not going to happen anytime soon I wouldn't imagine.
-Mike
Basicially if a radio is programmed one time with the hardware system key it cannot be programmed without it again.
In addition the System Admin. can make copies of the master key that has an expiration date (along with other neat features), so if he has a contractor that he needs to control, he can set the expiration date to kill the key (or other limiting programming parameters) after the contract expires.
I dont have an exact date of release but it's coming around soon.
Mark
Re: System Key Question
Sorry to revive an old a dead thread, but KS4VT is right, they are called "Advanced System Keys" or ASK's and they are either serial or USB devices that hold iButtons (fancy one way encryption technology) that will set a specific access level in the CPS, that is determined by the key admin that creates the keys. They can be set to expire after a certain number of days, or after a certain number of uses, and are qunique to each trunking system.
iButtons have a bunch of other uses too... opening locks, etc... some older stuff that has since been replaced by RFID technology; but Moto is using them for ASK's
If you're wondering what one looks like...
Here is the iButton itself (the encrypted programmable part)
and here is the USB adapter it lives in (you can see it inside)
iButtons have a bunch of other uses too... opening locks, etc... some older stuff that has since been replaced by RFID technology; but Moto is using them for ASK's
If you're wondering what one looks like...
Here is the iButton itself (the encrypted programmable part)
and here is the USB adapter it lives in (you can see it inside)
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