Batboard

So I am doing some searching. I want to buy a nice UHF repeater for use on gmrs. My choices are between a MSF5000, MTR2000, or Quantar (P25).

Of course anyone would love to have a astro repeater, but the $$$ factor is a major problem....

I see that I can buy a MSF for less than 1,000.
I have seen the MTR going nicely equipped for 3,500
And I have seen the Quantar going for around 7-10,000,,,But there is always usually a mystery behind it???

Upon searching google I found this web page.
http://www.danelec.com/index.htm

Has anyone heard or used any of there products.
What kind of price range are we looking with this stuff.
Is it good quality, and Is it worth buying this repeater new.

Also, Are there any other brands to check out?

Thanks, Rob

Daniels makes good stuff, but it tends to be expensive and can be tricky to maintain, and there are far fewer folks out there qualified to maintain it than there are who can work on Motorola stations.

I'd stay away from the MSF. The MTR should be an excellent machine for a UHF conventional station, and if you are willing to spend the bucks, the Quantar is unbeatable. The Quantar is easier to hook up to an external controller, if that is your plan.

Note that, technically, neither the MTR nor the Quantar is type accepted for Part 95, since both are capable of being set for more than 50W peak. But either can be safely trimmed down to 50W.

I should add: digital voice is not a permitted modulation on Part 95.

Yes, I do plan on interfacing the Zetron Model 38 controller to the repeater. As far as power is concerned I just hope to make a solid 30 watts on the out side of the duplexer, nothing more. I would love to get a P25 station, even though it isn't allowed it may at that point be worth getting a lic. channel.
Right now I am running a R100 which is getting it's front end beat up pretty bad by alot of off channel garbage. I would like something a little more stable and with a tighter front end. I plan on adding an angle linear tripple badpass can system with the rx preamplifier to try to alleviate some of the interference. The duplexer is a heavy duty cellwave with almost 100% isolation.

Anyway here some other questions?
1) How much should I expect to resonably pay for a quantar?
2) Who or where is a good vender to get this item used?
3) How do I verify that it is a p25 repeater?
4) And what about this unit/manufacturer http://www.relm.com/Sections/BK/other/vseries.asp

Also, How hard is it to interface the 38 to the MTR since this repeater is one of the more logical and cost effective choices for analog?

Thanks- Rob

Daniels makes excellent stuff. Last time I checked (last fall) they were 12-16 weeks out for production. Seems lots of federal agencies use their stuff and with all that Homeland security money floating around people are buying stuff.

They have lots of fail safes and lots of backup options that can be built in. Biggest problem that I have with them is their resellers. Their midwest reps (auroa marketing) were not to helpful, did not care that I had 60k in my hands (though a governmental po) and just did not seem to understand or want to understand what I wanted.

Howard

I can't tell you about RELM repeaters. And I have little experience with MTRs, though I've heard (second hand; reliability factor unknown) that they have problems with heat dissipation, problems with IF cross-talk if they are mounted close to one another; and can be a pain to wire to an external controller.

The Quantar is a snap to wire to a Zetron 38M, and when, as and if you're ready, let me know and I'll send you detail instructions for both the wire hookup and the required wildcard programming. If you want to impose wireline control on the controller, be sure it is the 38M (or "38 Max"), not the 38A.

Part 95 imposes no limit on ERP, so the issue is not power out of the duplexer, but rather transmitter power at the amp deck output connector.

I think the MTR2000 have great audio - there are 3 in service near where I am, and a very nice properly tuned MTR sounds great.

I know they are all in seperate cabinets, but all in the same genearl area from eachother.

I personally, wouldn't mind having an MSF - just to learn about them a bit.

Quantar would really be the "nuts" tho.

We really need a "buyers guide to the quantar" for us guys going to dayton.

-Alex

I've seen Daniels stuff, and it looked good to me - good RF specs, good mod fidelity on APCO-25.

And they have excellent taste in test equipment

I can't provide a "buyer's guide" to Quantars, but here is some information that might contribute to such a guide:

Quantars come in VHF, UHF, 800 and 900.

In VHF, UHF and 800, they come in:

Conventional Analog (X597)
Conventional Analog Securenet (X598)
Conventional Astro VSELP (X599) (may no longer be available)
Conventional Astro CAI (X806)
6809 Trunking (i.e., SmartNet, no SmartZone) Analog (X997)
6809 Trunking Securenet (X996)
6809 Trunking Astro VSELP (X992)
6809 Trunking Astro CAI (X900)
SmartZone 6809 Trunking Astro VSELP (X989)
SmartZone 6809 Trunking Astro CAI (X897)
and "Intellipeater" (single machine trunking) flavors.

Bands and Powers are:

VHF Range 1 132-154 25W or 125W
VHF Range 2 150-175 25W or 125W
UHF Range 1 403-433 25W or 110W
UHF Range 2 438-470 25W or 110W
UHF Range 3 470-494 110W
UHF Range 4 494-520 100W
800 851-870 20W or 100W
900 935-941 100W

VHF are programmable for 30kHz, 25kHz or 12.5 kHz bandwidths, per channel. UHF and 800, for 25 kHz or 12.5 kHz. 900 for 12.5 kHz only.

All Quantars can be programmed either for 16 channels (with one PL or DPL per channel) or 1 channel (with a limited MPL table), selectable via programming. If the MPL is used, up to 16 tones may be selected, only one of which may be a DPL. (For FB6 use, an external controller is recommended.)

Quantars may be specified with AC power supplies, AC power supplies with DC backup revert, or DC only power supplies. The low power DC radios run on 12VDC and the high power stations run on 24VDC. (In my judgment, the battery backup function is marginal, and there are better ways to provide battery backup to a Quantar, which have been discussed at length in prior posts.)

Quantar receivers use a pre-selector, with a bandwidth of: 4 mHz (VHF and UHF), 19 MHz (800) and 6 MHz (900). Preselector tuning is manual, via 3 (UHF) or 5 (VHF) tuning screws on the face of the preselector mounting plate. All other tuning for receiver, exciter and PA is via programming.

There are two wireline options: 4 wires or 8 wires (though I've never seen a Quantar without one of these "options" installed). In addition, there is a 50-pin telco connector on the backplane that brings a large array of signals by default, and may be programmed to mix and match other input and output signals, both analog and logical, to that connector.

Firmware upgrades and some of the "options" in a Quantar are provided by "flashing." Be aware of something called the "Quantar Limited," which looks like a Quantar but lacks the flashable SCB (system control board).

The basic Quantar, which includes pre-selector, receiver, slot for an auxillary receiver, SCB (including wireline daugherboard), power supply, exciter and PA, comes in a 5 RU high cage and integral backplane. There are optional cabinets of 12", 30", 46" and 60" indoor-rated cabinets. Stay away from the 12" cabinet, which is too small for heat dissipation; the 30" is ideal, as it has enough space for the station, duplexer, external controller, wireline termination panel, and tomorrow's lunch. The higher cabinets are primarily for trunked installations.

The basic Quantar comes with a 1 ppm reference oscillator. There is an optional 0.1 ppm reference, and a BNC connector on the front plane for an external reference.

The front plane includes a DB-9 for programming, pushbuttons for access disable, local test key, and local speaker activation and volume, plus jacks for an external local speaker and a local mike. There are also LEDs for a host of high level diagnostics and functions. (Detailed diagnostics and station history is via programming.)

Programming is via RSS, which comes with the first really usable programming manual I've every seen from Motorola.

Very nice.
Thanks

I've worked with the Daniels P25 repeaters some. They work pretty well, but they are really designed for use with solar power. There is definitely more of a key up delay on the Daniels than there is on the Quantar. I'm guessing this is because they have some power saving "sleep mode" like some portable radios do. If I remember right, the standby current draw on the Daniels is between 100 and 200 mA.

The Quantar works great. Here is some stuff I've know about them, that wasn't covered by previous posts:

There is no vocoder in the Quantar, so you'll need a DIU if you want to use a phone patch or wireline control in the digital mode.

You can't use the multi-PL built in "community repeater" control and P25 digital at the same time. The "community repeater" function requires you to set the station up as analog-only.

On the other hand, if you have a P25 capable station, and you only need it to repeat one PL/DPL in addition to P25, that can easily be done... You can also program the repeater as P25 digital only.

If you want to link two Quantars in the P25 mode, either a V.24 interface or an Astro Modem will be required on each station. They are both daughterboards that can be installed on the wireline card. Either way works great in P25--there is no double vocoding.

As far as I know, any P25 capable station will support DES-OFB repeat. It is completely transparent to DES-OFB. (Some early-model Daniels repeaters will not support this)

P25 repeat operation is also transparent to conventional talkgroups. Any transmission on the input frequency with the correct network ID will be repeated, and the talkgroup will be repeated as well. If you set all of your radios to "Selective Squelch", and use conventional talkgroups, you can essentially have a P25 community repeater that supports over 65,000 "tones" or users! (Some early-model Daniels repeaters do not support this feature)

And finally, unlike just about every other RSS program, the DOS Quantar RSS works just fine (reads and programs the station) in a DOS window in Windows 2000... Of course it doesn't require a RIB.


Hope this helps...

Problem on GMRS is that there are FRS'ers 12.5 k from the input (467.6xx) and the IF filters in the R100 are a bit wide to keep the drifting FRS'ers out of it. The IF filters can be changed to a much newer type with a much narrower "skirt" without too much problem. Same thing happens on GM/Radius/Maxtrac receivers.

I have put Marti's and M38's on MTR's with no problems.

The MSF5000 with the narrower filters is a good receiver, even at 5khz pass and 12.5khz spacing.

How about this...

Could I interface a spectratac reciever and still use the r100 as the tx radio with the model 38A controller.

Thanks, Rob

Yes with the 38M and presumably with the 38A, but you'll have to strap the SpectraTac for local COR (versus wireline idle tone).

RKG....

Can you give me some more info on this modification and what it intails..
Or maybe the directions on how to do that, If it isn't too crazy. I am not familiar with the spectratac reciever as I have not worked with them much at all. Thanks, Rob

Hi,
Why not concider a gr 300? I have 2 online now in gmrs and I have had zero trbls with them. They are outdoors ( in a enclosure ) and you can also get a controler from Will that works great. I am getting 30 watts out of the duplexor on 1 and have great coverage. There are gr 300 cabinets avail and with 16 pin ( Will can make a controler for 5 pin also) radios it is a snap. I am currently adding the battery backup module for 1 gr300 and hope to do # 2 larter this year. What ever you drcide I hope you at least check it out

Slars

When a receiver is intended to be used in a voting system, there has to be some way for it to tell the comparator that it has unsquelched and is receiving what it believes to be a valid signal.

If the receiver is co-located with the comparator, this can be done with a signal that is sometimes referred to as COR, but really means that the radio has detected all conditions valid for receive and is gating audio: freq valid and tone valid.

If the receiver is remotely located, there is no way to get this electrical COR signal to the comparator, so it is done by having a "receiver interface" between the receiver and the telco lines. The interface generates a continuous idle tone down the telco line until the receiver generates a COR signal. The comparator takes the absence of the idle tone as signifying COR.

Receivers specifically designed for voting use usually have this interface buillt in, and by strapping or programming, you tell the receiver whether it will be hooked up to a voting selector and by what means.

If you want to use a receiver in a repeater setup, the repeater controller needs the same COR signal, via a logical pin. The repeater controller has no use for the idle tone and doesn't want to see it.

I'm not familiar with your receiver, but the book should show you how to disable the idle tone generator and hook up a direct electrical connection to signify COR.

Note that in a voting situation, you usually do tone decoding in the receiver. If you're going to use the receiver as part of a repeater with an external controller, you program the receiver for CSQ, pass the discriminator audio to the controller, and let the controller do tone decoding. In this case, the COR signal will be true COR, i.e., valid freq only.