Batboard

With as much as people complain about NexTel (me included) you have to admit, it is a good idea. Despite the sound, connection, service problems, the overal concept is good. I am a ham operator, and I have 2 autopatch links in my county for my private use. All I have to do is enter a 4 digit acess code on my handheld or mobile and enter the phone # to call. I also have two way radio connection instantly. Nextel is basicly like a high tech repeater with autopatch phone link.

I would love to be able to use my handheld almost anywhere, tx to a local tower and then link thru phone lines or radio links to another tower easily. Right now for me to have any contact to another repeater 35 miles north, I have to use my HH to my car, then repeat it to my house, then finaly to the tower 35 miles away. That's a lot of equipment to do this. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to have clear communications anywhere with just your handheld.

Now I know that NexTel has taken a LOT of users, freq's, towers, ect away from us. That sucks for all of us who provide radio service. Maybe we should get with the times and find a way to upgrade our existing systems and beat NexTel's technology. Why should we rely on what big M makes for us to use. Linking our systems together is the only way to do this. Why waste a whole tower or antenna for one group. Why not make them linked community repeaters. have say 5-30 users on one frequincy. I hate how all these services suck up the freq's so nobody else can use them. There is what 65pl tones and 200 dpl codes. Why can't we all use those? that's a LOT more users on each freq.

If we want to keep our two way radios, as public service, ham operators, GMRS, business, FRS, ect. we should start acting and use what we have, before NexTel or UPS or some other multi million $ company steals it all from us.

Please give me your input. Thanks.

[quote]
On 2002-03-07 01:44, EC-7 wrote:
With as much as people complain about NexTel (me included) you have to admit, it is a good idea. Despite the sound, connection, service problems, the overal concept is good. I am a ham operator, and I have 2 autopatch links in my county for my private use. All I have to do is enter a 4 digit acess code on my handheld or mobile and enter the phone # to call. I also have two way radio connection instantly. Nextel is basicly like a high tech repeater with autopatch phone link.

Nextel has yet to tuen a profit in almost ten years. They now have a bigger problem: interference to 800MHz critical public safety radio systems. I would hardly call iDEN advanced, it is decade old technology, utilizing TDMA. TDMA is dead- CDMA variants are the winning move in designing a high capacity network. and the audio quality is superior to TDMA systems. Iden is certainly a better use of radio spectrum than wideband analog FM, but today their are better options that allow for broadband data and voice over a single network, such as 3G which in various phases uses wCDMA.

I would love to be able to use my handheld almost anywhere, tx to a local tower and then link thru phone lines or radio links to another tower easily. Right now for me to have any contact to another repeater 35 miles north, I have to use my HH to my car, then repeat it to my house, then finaly to the tower 35 miles away. That's a lot of equipment to do this. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to have clear communications anywhere with just your handheld.

That costs major money to build out a network to have that type of coverage from a portable radio. ham radio and big budgets usually don't go hand in hand. I had a UHF ham repeater several years ago that covered the majority of a major metro area. Almost 7 grand was spent on it. Many people enjoyed freeloading and squatting but not ONE single user ever bothered to donate to keep it on the air.

Now I know that NexTel has taken a LOT of users, freq's, towers, ect away from us. That sucks for all of us who provide radio service. Maybe we should get with the times and find a way to upgrade our existing systems and beat NexTel's technology. Why should we rely on what big M makes for us to use. Linking our systems together is the only way to do this. Why waste a whole tower or antenna for one group. Why not make them linked community repeaters. have say 5-30 users on one frequincy. I hate how all these services suck up the freq's so nobody else can use them. There is what 65pl tones and 200 dpl codes. Why can't we all use those? that's a LOT more users on each freq.

Ever heard of IRLP, the internet radio linking project? IRLP has EXCELLENT recovered audio and links repeaters all over THE WORLD. Try that one on with POOP-tel. and it is a relatively low cost, too.oh and it doesn't have to desense and jam every public safety radio system in the area to do it. As hams we have APRS, pretty darn advanced system considering the little hardware. And we still haven't lost the spirit of ingenuity either. We just need to concentrate on proloning the service by recruiting new hams and improve on showing our viability as a resource to the public.

If we want to keep our two way radios, as public service, ham operators, GMRS, business, FRS, ect. we should start acting and use what we have, before NexTel or UPS or some other multi million $ company steals it all from us.

True, but the key here is USING the amateur service as a SERVICE, meaning getting out there and DOING things to support our local community and proving our viability to the community. This means volunteering with local charities and governments to provide not merely "communicators" but trained volunteers who have a plethora of resources at their disposal. "Communicators" aren't needed- you just pointed out how nextel, pcs, etc have made keeping in touch easier. But trained VOLUNTEERS with their own tools (including communications gear, etc) are a resource that will be called on. One of the biggest gripes about using ham "shadows" is that they are untrained people that often get in the way and take too much time in their own formality of q-signals, phonetic alphabets, customs, etc that it takes half a week to pass simple traffic that could be sent directly to the recipient via a commercial service without all the games. So why not lut us as hams emerge as a new blood of resource that can be tapped at NO COST to the public. This is the only economically viable way to restore real public awareness to the service. Sure, during hurricanes and tornadoes ham radio is always the first when the chips are down, but what about the rest of the time? Why not VOLUNTEER and make a difference. That's my take on saving the service.

Please give me your input. Thanks

One way to show "Public Viability" with HAM radio is to join your County Search & Rescue units. Not just as a HAM operator but as a Search Volunteer as well. There is ESAR (Explorer S&R), 4x4 units, K9 teams, Horse mounted teams, Mountain Rescue, etc. All have some members that are HAM operators. The need for well trained volunteers is great, the numbers we have are good but not always adequate.
Contact your County Sheriff Dept for more info on how you can be part of Search and Rescue. Showing FCC we need these freqs for HAM, FRS, Bus and SAR may help keep BIG BUSINESS from taking over what we have left.

_________________
T. Freeman
PCSAR 4x4 Unit 652
PCSAR TAC Unit 705

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PCSAR 4x4 652 on 2002-03-07 02:40 ]</font>

PCSAR, I harve to agree with you post here. I too have lost 800 and 900 channels to NexTel.
I remember when they started this 800 thing, and it was not NexTel then. They had LOTS of troubles even getting the trunking part working.


Will

HamSAR, K9SAR, Races and others.

Nexsmell is exctly an 800 repeater system hat has an auto patch. At least it it by FCC licensing.
When MCI and Nexsmell originaly got into bed together with this concept for a NATION WIDE digital communication system, they had to license it as a two way trunking system with an auto patch.
It would not fall under the cellular licensing under the FCC guidlines because of the frequencies they utilize. All the cellular frequencies were already taken and no one was giving them up. (I am sure they tried anyway)
So Nexsmell set up the original marketing as a two way digital radio with a built in telephone. Now they have reveresed it and call it a DIGITAL PHONE with direct connect.
Because of the direct connect feature , it still falls under the classification as a two way radio.
Nexsmell would like to discontinue the direct connect feature because they lose channel spacing. In time , I am sure thay will as thay still continue to pay $$$$$$ to FCC and anyone who has frequencies they see as potential use for thier system.
Nexsmell has the conception that someday, all wireles communications will have to pass through thier [idiot] if you wish to communicate.

If NEXTEL is considered a Mobile-Relay/Interconnect station, then does that still make it illegal to monitor communications on their frequencies (that is if I had any equipment capable)?

My local shopping mall uses a repeater with phone patch and it is not wrong to listen to that (normal security coms on it, too).

-Josh

A bit off topic, but, how does a nextel "mobile" radio work, the m-100 you see on ebay here or there. Does one need to purchase service from Nextel or is it just plug and play. Our local ambulance chiefs have nextels, however they're the only three that have them and we wanted to put in a base station (rigged up mobile attached to some marine batteries on a trickle charge) at our dispatch console.

Any advice?

On 2002-03-07 20:52, Josh wrote:
If NEXTEL is considered a Mobile-Relay/Interconnect station, then does that still make it illegal to monitor communications on their frequencies (that is if I had any equipment capable)?

Go for it.

I wish all the best of luck in decoding Motorola's iDen trunking format that NexTel uses.

Also, watch out for Motorola's lawyers when making a decoder, since iDen is a Motorola Propritary format.


Does anyone know how to turn an i1000+ into a iDen scanner?

it would be cool to turn an old iden unit into a receiver. I've inquired about the same in the past and haven't had any luck.

Why is everyone so afraid of making a reciever/scanner out of a NexTel phone. I know that there are a few people here who have listned into cordless and cell phones before. The FCC and the lawyers didn't "magicly" find out and bust down your door, did they?

Let's say that we wanted to attempt to do this for "educational purposes" and see if it "can" be done. Of corse, we wouldn't listen in or try to use it at all.

When APCO-25 phase II goes into effect, apparently, it will be digital spread spectrum with QAM technology powering it. This is a lot like Nextel/Motorola's iDEN technology, right? If so, I'm guessing when Undien makes an APCO-25 Ph. II board for their digital scanner, iDEN may be unlocked.

Maybe I'm wrong, too.

-Josh

I agree entirely with what KC8GRQ Mark Rodgers is saying about spectrum utilization. 90% of the time, most two way voice frequencies are silent.

Sure, multiplexing voice is a great idea. But it costs money. And, it works best in large-scale systems. Like a county-wide trunked system. Or, a large metro city. But, trunking a rural town's public safety users is a silly and expensive idea. So, multiplexing must be a large scale operation. Multi-agencies must use the system for the system to be cost effective.

I suppose if we lived in a socialist country, we would be licenced for certain user ID's on a government owned nation-wide repeater. But, since we live in the US of A, that isn't going to be the way. Nor would I really want it that way.

Let's look at ham repeaters. Every town has at least one or two ham repeaters. And, they almost all sit idle 23 1/2 hours a day. The reason:
<uL>
<li>Repeaters cover limited, tiny geographic locales.
<li>Ham radio is becoming less popular.
<li>The economy stinks; hardly anyone has a lot of dough for radio stuff (maybe?)
<li>(enter more excuses here)
</ul>
Projects like IRLP are a great start. But, before looking world-wide in linking, why not look within your general region or metro area? Imagine using an HT, walking from one side of a large metro area (like the Detroit-metro area) to the farthest other corner, and still be using the same repeater frequency. You can. Imagine the massive and involved nets that could be hosted on a system that is linked across an entire metro area. It is possiable.

Another intresting project is starting a ham trunked linked system. Try consolidting all of the hardly-ever used repeater frequencies into a trunked system. The result: more traffic over the same number of frequencies.
Sure, I'm sure Alinco won't be making a trunked ham band HT anytime soon, but it could happen.

"The best way to predict the future is to invent it." -Xerox PARC.

If anyone wants to help out with a common linked freqency system in the Metro-Detroit area, feel free to email or private message me.

Let's look at ham repeaters. Every town has at least one or two ham repeaters. And, they almost all sit idle 23 1/2 hours a day. The reason:
<uL>
<li>Repeaters cover limited, tiny geographic locales.
<li>Ham radio is becoming less popular.
<li>The economy stinks; hardly anyone has a lot of dough for radio stuff (maybe?)
<li>(enter more excuses here)
</ul>

No-license radios that are sold almost everywhere it seems these days -- FRS, MURS, dot-channel radios, CB's, cellular/pcs/NexTels/2-way pagers (which are all radios) -- and the Internet has taken a big bite out of the population that might have, at one time, been interested in becoming amateurs. Even young kids carry phones now and "chat" with friends across the globe by "Instant Message."

The consumer cheapie radio equipment made today is another reason -- it's far from repair-friendly -- you can't replace a tube you got from the local radio/tv repair shop to get it working again. You need a microscope and smt soldering station to fix the new ones (which, IMHO, are meant to be tossed out when they break.) And wireless phones are given away free with contractual subscription commitment.

Damn, I'm old. LOL.

-RFB

I was wondering the same thing. (about the HAM trunking thing) Is that a 'legal thing' as for as the HAM community is concerned? ie: IDing everytime you switch freqs and all that other good stuff that goes along with it? There are a few WIDE area repeaters around here that are sometimes too busy to talk on, but if they were trunked, and there was a set of standard HAM talk groups, the problems would be solved...lol
well, on the user level I guess, but making it work would be a nightmare...

There's enough surplus 900mhz equipment out there that you could find more than enough stuff to setup your own trunking system. Only problem would be finding the controlers cheaply enough.

I've been interested in experimenting, but just don't have the time to. I guess if enough interest to make the project happen was there, then I'd be more into it.

There would be a lot of stuff I think you'd have to build into the system to make it so that it complies with amateur radio standards - like the control channel IDing in morse... I'm suprised that while the folks in Schamsburg(SP?) have come up with a neat MDC/user tracking system, that they haven't setup a trunking thing of some sort... They gotta be able to dust off a quantar or two for the project...

-Alex

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: alex on 2002-03-15 10:47 ]</font>

I have a question.
If hams go trunking, it would seem an easy matter for commercial interests to come in and say "you can have 50 talkgroups, lower priority, blah blah blah" and take over the system, and or frequencies. It would at least make it an easy target for businesses to say that they could "share" with the hams. Not to mention, that there are still hams with no PL in their radios, let alone DPL. How would we get others hams involved? I guess we could link the trunked talkgroups to vhf or uhf repeatewrs for those who wouldn't be able to acquire the equipment. Good thread, FatBoy.

Well, I disagree with the point that business would want access to the system. The fact that it is HAM in the first place is enough to keep business out - it's against the rules to use Amateur Radio for business purposes. If a bunch of people want to get together and build a system, there is no one that we have to give access to besides other hams. The control of it would be interesting though with system keys and other things, but if you think about it, with 900mhz transcivers going for $50-$150 on ebay, you could get access to the system. That's not a bad investment, providing your going to be using the system.

I think it would be a fun experiment. I'd be curiuos to know how to setup a system, and make it work, but I personnaly don't have the cash...

Which begs another question.... What does Nextel do with all the stuff that they take down? or buy? Destroy it? There's gotta be someone over there who knows...

-Alex

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: alex on 2002-03-15 15:00 ]</font>

they should give it to Batlabs...hehehe

heh... start the batlabs national trunking system... It would be scary to see what we would come up with for a system.

Be expensive, but at the push of a button, access to the amount of knoledge here almost instantly would be scary...

Oh well... I guess that's why Nextel makes so much cash... they already got that.

-Alex

Nextel throws away everything that they take in on trade. EVERYTHING! The local shop had a repeater, cardcage and cards just sitting out in the rain by the trashcan one day. It came from a trunked system they took down and I would've grabbed it but it was obviously ruined. I know a guy that worked there and he said they have days that they literally throw away thousands of radios and equipment. My dumpster diving efforts have been in vain though...

As for monitoring, if they're licensed as YB (haven't seen a Nextel frequency that wasn't) and they're not encrypted, it's legal to monitor them.

Is the Iden technology a standard? If so there are papers on the technology that can be obtained from the government for a fee (at least they're up front about selling your technology out!) just like someone did in the infancy of Trunker.

I'd like to see one of their junk radios reverse engineered. If you don't subscribe to the service, then you've signed nothing that said you won't.

As for monitoring cellular or cordless phones, I would never admit to it. The ECPA is a dangerous thing, just look at what happened to Bill Cheek! He was made an example of...Not to mention, I'd hate to know what kind of stupid things people say across the airwaves.

my $0.01

TO BUBBASNEST:

You da man!!! Give it to em, both or even all barrells!

As it's been mentioned before, Nexsmell has illegelly taken many a frequencies from privately owned businesses that worked there arses off to build! The FCeeCee was part of that deal! And unforkunately, Motoscrolla was too! But, as any big business would do, the shell with the low man, which is apparently the Ammmmmericannn way of life, anymore! You people are going to have to learn to fight back! And don't give me this sccrap about ccapitalizzium! I always thought true "C" was were you worked your arses off to make or improve something out of almost nothing! But, what the heck do I know!?!?

Well I've vented, Sorry!

There's a juicy 20 MHz in the ham band that could be easily re-allocated. I'm referring to the 420-440 segment of the 420-450 band. In the US almost all users of this band are using only the 440 -450 segment. Many ham units are only capable of the 440-450 segment, and a lot of hams even refer to this band as '440'. 420-440 is extremely under-utilized and 'prime pickin'. I ran a scanner a few months 420-440 nothing but images/spurs,etc. EME/SSTV? Certainlly 20 MHz not needed.

As for the 440 band (yes I call that too) it seems to be geographically specific on its utilitization. Where I live in the northeast, there isn't too much going on, but 6/2 meters are out of control. More west you go (at least in my experiences and what I have heard from people) more and more of the 440 band is used.

lets see.. starting at the bottom,
we have links in the 420 range, weak signal
SSB/CW etc near 430, plus ATV and satellite..

as mentioned above, it depends on the area..

except for the links, which are mostly point-point, you won't hear most of this on your scanner.. you need to use a all-mode
radio..

420-440 near Canada is for normal two-way users. Ham's can't use it.

The scary thing is, some local fire departments use 420 - 440. Geepers. Now that's just asking for trouble from kiddies that bought a ham HT at Radio Shack. (from the same clerk that tells them they don't need a license, and that it's just like FRS)
<hr>
I think it's time for me to find a friend working at NexTel to get my hands on the equipment they trash.

Nextel does resell a lot of it, mostly the fixed end side. Unfortunately I can't find the link. Stuff like controllers, antennas, etc. I think I do recall them listing subscriber end equipment also. Talk about markup too.

Be careful what you wish for. While I'm sure that there is plenty of nice gear in the big Nextel dumpster in the sky, a lot will be pure crap. A few years back, a shop I worked for took the "trade in any radio for a free nextel" thing to the extreme. We needed to augment our cell phone rental fleet, and we were trading in all kinds of crap. mastr pro mobiles, vhf hiband ACSB junkers, radios with no guts. Felt good to stick it to the "man". Oh well, my dumpster diving efforts have been in vain with nextel as well. I'll just stick to the old pager companies, amazing what kind of infrastructure gets thrown out if you know where to look.

As for the ham/trunk thing, It'd sure be neat. I'd think some kind of distributed architechture system, like smarttrunk, would work fine. I just spent all of last saturday helping to consollidate 6m/2m/220/440 near boston for one club to a central site, and I'd hate to have to bring more stuff to the same site. With the distributed controller thing, you get better channel re-use without having to tie it all up with cables, and the refit for most older radios isn't too tough, so long as they have scan. If you had the right place, just set up UHF trunking. used tk-353/hx-482 radios are cheaper than some monoband uhf ham radios.

OK, enough about off brand stuff, putting the saber blinders back on....

Will

Try this link for the Nextel Resale site

http://ndl-intl.nextel.com/ndc/index.html