Batboard

I have someone who wants to trade me a couple of radios for the Spectra that I have listed, however, he is in Denmark. I have some concerns over the legality of sending the equipment overseas.

The part number for the DES box is NNTN4024A, according to Motorola Parts ID. I have talked to Motorola about this who says I need to contact the department of defense, and some other people before doing this. They can't give me an ECCA number for it so that I can talk to the 1-800-USA-TRADE people.

Can someone help me out? I want to make sure that this is legal before doing it.

Any help, preferably backed with some info from the web would be great.

Thanks,

Alex

Alex-

Search for K2XM's post "A Question About Exporting Encryption Devices"

Sounds like you may be dealing with the same individual.

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.p ... 12&forum=1

The guy who is trying to sell me the radios has an e-mail of "Bjørling Friholm" and comes from a mail.dk address.

His first name is Christian. He is offering me two DES-XL MTS2000's VHF... which is very tempting, but I'm getting the vibe it isn't a good idea. At least something not worth risking.

what about sending the radio without the des box? Would it sill be illegal even though it doesn't have the actual parts for encrypting the information, just support for it.

-Alex

Alex, steer clear of exporting anything like DES or equipment even capable of it. Its not worth doing, and even if you were able to find some loophole to justify it, the feds could make your life miserable. Furthermore, I would doubt the legitimacy of any MTS2000's coming from Denmark, and you could conceivably land yourself in trouble for receiving DES equipment from a foreign individual. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Chris

On 2002-03-12 17:08, alex wrote:
http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.p ... 12&forum=1

The guy who is trying to sell me the radios has an e-mail of "Bjørling Friholm" and comes from a mail.dk address.

His first name is Christian. He is offering me two DES-XL MTS2000's VHF... which is very tempting, but I'm getting the vibe it isn't a good idea. At least something not worth risking.

what about sending the radio without the des box? Would it sill be illegal even though it doesn't have the actual parts for encrypting the information, just support for it.

-Alex

Alex,

That's the same guy that wanted to get the DES box that I had on e-Bay a few weeks ago. I see someone already referred you to that post where I had asked the same thing about exporting DES equipment. Better to be save then sorry, I told the guy NO!!

Later,
Pete
K2XM

The best part is, when you tell these guys "NO", they get real beligerant with you, I sold a few spectra's to a couple of guys over there, I drew the line when they started with the encryption stuff and wouldn't let it die. I would personally steer clear. I could of course always be some kind of set up, but I'm not much for the conspiracy theroy thing. Best of luck whatever decision you make. SG

Thanks Guys. I will not be selling to this guy. As always appreciate the advice and help.

I started to get more concered when motorola said that they are using this encryption overseas now, and that I should be contacting someone at the department of defense. At that point, I started thinking it's not a hot idea.

Thanks Again,

Alex

Actually, they lightened up on the export of DES (128bit). Clinton signed some laws into effect, It's now ok to many countries, a few its not OK. Denmark is one of the "OK" countries. You can browse over to the US customs websites on encryption exportation, it's there. I know because software that used to be hassled (Lotus Notes, for one) you couldnt send the US DES version, they had special 40bit export version. Not any more, it's all 128 bit now and only 1 global version. With that all said, is it worth the hassle if theres a snag? Probably not, as you will have to prove your innocence, rather than have them prove your guilt. Its just the way the Govt works these days...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pmb1010 on 2002-03-13 11:14 ]</font>

You sounds suspiciously like the person I was talking to about making the trade with. I personally am not risking any of the stuff that I have worked hard for to make some cash. That's just dumb. If your not the person I was exchanging emails with, then I'm sorry.

I looked around, and even after talking with motorola trying to find info, they said I would have to talk to the dept. of defense. Not worth it if you ask me.

I'd still be interested in reading the documentation online, but I wouldn't ship anything out unless I had spoken with a number of people to ensure that what i'm doing is legal, and the info I have is correct.

-Alex

I'm not the person trying to buy... I'm not far from you, in NYS actually.
Go here:
http://www.bxa.doc.gov/Encryption/19Oct2KFactsheet.html

Here is the pertinant paragraph:
Exports to the European Union (EU) plus an additional eight countries: U.S. exporters can export and reexport all encryption items, except cryptanalytic products and their related technology, immediately to the 15 EU member states and Australia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Poland and Switzerland without a license (i.e., under a license exception). Exports to worldwide offices of firms, organizations and governments headquartered in these nations and Canada are also permitted. U.S. exporters can ship their products under this new policy immediately after submitting a commodity classification request to BXA, rather than waiting for the review and classification to be completed.

Products Incorporating Short-Range Technologies: Products that incorporate components providing cryptographic functionality limited to short-range wireless technology can be exported to any end-user without a license (i.e., under a license exception), without a technical review or reporting requirements. These include consumer products such as audio devices, cameras, video recorders, computer accessories, hand held devices, mobile phones and household appliances (e.g., refrigerators, washing machines and microwave ovens) that communicate with each other via short range wireless technologies.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pmb1010 on 2002-03-14 15:03 ]</font>

Hello all

It seems to be some ancient knowledge shared by all that encryption can not be exported. This is very wrong, as you can see from the previous posting which included the link to BXA's website.

All Securenet encryption standards (DVP,DVI,DES and the XL variants) except Fascinator and the other which name I dont remember are subject to export.

Export limitations have easened quite a lot and export of all less than 64bit DES stuff is OK. There are class A countries and class B countries. Whole EU is at category A which means no restrictions, roughly saying.

Previously DES was not exportable, and that's why DVI protocol was developed, to make Securenet available outside US too. For example the finnish interior ministry who runs law enforcement got a DVI-XL securenet about 10 years ago. Now they could run DES-XL.
I run DES-XL on my fleet and have exported DES-XL without questions.

Erik / Finland

Hi there

On 2002-03-12 17:20 Chris wrote:
"...I would doubt the legitimacy of any MTS2000's coming from Denmark...”
I have 2 MTS-2000 - software version R06.58 (with DVI-XL encryption). If I wanted to sell these babes someday it would probably be on eBay because of the very bad "used-marked” for Motorola gear in Denmark. Could you please explain to me why buying a MTS-2000 from someone in Denmark would be such a bad thing ?
Best regards
Otto (who actually lives in Denmark

I in no way attempted to offend you. I have seen all too often radios from overseas end up here that cannot be programmed or serviced by US MSS's or the depot or are not capable of MDC or US trunking protocols. The radios that you have with that version of firmware are indeed fine radios, and if they are capable of MDC and US trunking, have excellent resale value.
Perhaps I overgeneralized.

Chris

Hi Chris

Yes – my MTS-2000 radios are capable of doing MDC - also PTT-ID decode. And yes you are correct that the europeran variant of the MTS-2000 (and other radios) cannot be programmed with normal US RSS. The European radios are known as "select 5" radios and are normally capable of CCIR, MCCIR, ZWEII and EEA tone systems for signalling. No MDC, GE STAR, single tone or trunking
It's probably correct that these radios are being sold from Europe to USA.
Every time I sell these types of radios I make it very clear that these radios are "Select 5" radios.
Just see:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1338292641 or
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1322825516

Best regards
Otto

Otto,

I wish more people had descriptions of equipment like you do in those auctions. The more information the better. Best of luck and thanks for bringing this issue up. I think it makes people more comfortable purchasing radios from overseas - especially purchasing radios from you.

Regards..Chris