Batboard

Can anyone please tell me if an Astro SPectra is listed as Analog only can it be flashed to do APCO 25 Digital? If so, what's the ball park price for doing this?

$600 for the flash from Motorola, plus any hardware that might be required.

-Alex

Checking the current 4Q04 Motorola price book, the IMBE uplift to an Analog (ASTRO Ready) ASTRO Spectra mobile is $770. Don't forget to add sales tax (about $70 in WA state), plus around $20 for shipping. That brings the real price of an IMBE uplift to a total of $860. There is no discount on FLASHport, unless you have a contract in place with Motorola where you negotiated specific FLASHport uplift(s) at the time of purchase. You also need a completely legit radio (they will require the radio’s serial number and existing firmware and FLASHport data). It requires an FO to be generated because FLASHport can not be ordered through Parts (e.g., it involves a sales order requiring an FO to be generated by your Motorola salesman, with a full blown STIC-1 required, etc.). It typically takes 4 to 6 weeks to get the FLASHport kit, sometimes longer. They are very labor intensive, as a Motorola Tec has to hand type in their computer system all of the pertinent details on each radio(s) so the FLASHport load can be uniquely built and customized to each individual radio. I’ve seen FLASHport orders take up to 8 weeks, especially if your Moto sales guy is a newbie and forgets to cross an “i”/dot a “t.” The FLASHport order form is a somewhat complex order form, and a newbie Moto sales guy is likely to hose something up in this regards.

This is one of the huge things to watch out for on eBay radios. An $800 eBay radio that is “ASTRO Ready” (e.g., analog) will be a lot pricier when you are all done. Figure $860 for IMBE, plus most of these eBay ASTRO Ready radios do not have DES-OFB. Depending on how lucky you are, you can figure at least $200 for a guaranteed good DES-OFB module, if not more (I've seen “guaranteed good” DES-OFB modules on eBay for up to $400).

All told, that “great deal” ASTRO Ready eBay radio that you bought for $800 is now an $1860+ radio by the time it is enabled for IMBE and DES-OFB. And, who knows if the underlying FLASHport firmware is legit, or not. If not, it needs to be refreshed to be eligible for a FLASHport, at substantial costs. However, if it's not legit, you can't open up an FO for a refresh FLASHport, since it will bomb out in Order Edit.

BTW, until very recently, the uplift from VSELP to IMBE was only $200. They have now jacked up the ASTRO VSELP to IMBE uplift cost to $500. Again, you’ve got to watch these things like a hawk, in terms of eBay radios. If your end game is an IMBE radio, consider the new XTS1500 at $1260, brand new. How many folks really need more than 16 modes on a conventional radio?

Larry

god motorola sucks...my 802.11a router has a more technologically advanced packetization scheme over the air and it only costs 30$...they are seriously on the way down if you ask me...they are about to be leapfrogged by about 10 fold. Only ignorant people and wannabe public service offical losers with motorola fever would be caught dead paying so much for a clearly lackluster and ancient product. I love this "if you digitize your transmissions you will have interoperability" and "there is no room on the bands anymore so we must digitize to create more space" Bullsh*t! Last time I checked a VHF Astro saber couldnt communicate with a UHF astro saber at all, and hardly anyone (at least down here in miami/ft. lauderdale, which is a concrete jungle might I add) is on the UHF or VHF bands, especially VHF. It's all a load of crap perpetrated by a *TRADE ORGINIZATION* called APCO. Since when does a trade orginization decide which technologies are good for an industry and life-safety? Usually it is experts like the IEEE. Seems like it's in self intrest to me..It's nothing more than a registry of public safety related businesses. Good riddance to Motorola's reign as king and innovator in the 2 way industry, it looks like the title is offcially up for grabs...it's funny because they even got their competitors to follow their suicidal path and now things are really open for change (i.e. Kenwood, iCOM, etc)...its going to take alot to pull out of this tailspin...They should stick to StarTAC's. The only thing keeping them alive is existing customer relationships from the good ol' days. ASTROMODAT, this isnt a shot at you or your intrests but I wouldnt feel too hot if I were you knowing that I blew all my money and evangilized stuff that really isn't that nice. Ditch that stupid motorola price book you always seem to have on your hip and memorize something that is going to mean something 10 years from now...APCO25 will be like a 1200 baud modem (which it pretty much already is) and you will be kicking yourself on all the time you spent memorizing worthless facts...Motorola won't be attending your funeral so there is no point in wasting your time with them. I'm not trying to dis' you, just trying to get you to stop ASTROing your life away. Don't let motorola take you with them to their grave, your worth so much more than that. It reminds me of these people with the nike swooshes on their cars...WTF?
Steve

Have a beer, Steve. Nothing is that important to get so worked up over.

As to Motorola, only time will tell if they manage to hold on to their domination of the Public Safety sector. While we keep hearing about Kenwood, Icom, etc. where are they? The competitors that have thus far come forward are EF Johnson (or whatever they are called now), with their $5,200 hand held P25 radio that's the size of a building. Then there is M/A Comm, with their $5k+ portable. Let's not forget Daytron, with their $5,400 gigantic portable. And, none of them has an integrated, end-to-end system, all the way down to a DIU. Motorola will lower its prices when, but only if, real competition emerges. So far, it hasn't. Only time will tell if this changes, or not.

Larry

Not to pile on, Steve, but I hope your tirade against Motorola isn't based on an opinion that they are somehow ripping off the marketplace, etc. with their P25 pricing. I think you mentioned Icom as a possible savior in the P25 radio marketplace. Take a gander at an excerpt from an Icom press release, wherein one of their executives comments on Icom's pricing plans for their P25 radios:

"Icom America, Inc. has released information on its new Project 25 radios. The testing of the radios have been done but have not been type approved as of yet. This new handheld and new mobile radio that Icom is adding to its line of radios will save the end user a large sum of money. The retail price on these radios will be around $1700.00 each. This is a far cry better than $2,500.00 for a handheld and $4,200.00 for a mobile from other land mobile dealers. Icom is working to release these radios in the late fall of this year."

The mobile and portable pre-production P25 radios that Icom displayed at last year's APCO convention in Indianapolis (referred to in this Icom press release) were 16 mode radios, with no encryption. Guess what, Steve? Sorry to quote from your dreaded Motorola price book, but the list price on the Motorola P25 IMBE equipped XTS 1500 is $1,260. That's $440 less than Icom's price point of $1,700. And, the XTS 1500 is available now, unlike Icom's vaporware. Also, Motorola is going to release a companion mobile (the XTL 1500) in 1Q05 for the same sub-$1,300 price point.

BTW, take a look at the ugly duckling Icom F40G portable. That is the same body that Icom is using on their P25 radio. Ouch!!!!!!!!!

Larry

Thanks to all those who have replied so far on this topic. I was looking at a radio on ebay but ended up letting it go on to someone else. At around $800 bucks or so I thought it might be a good deal but it ended up going for $1025. I think that is a bit much for a used radio that I would have to spend another $600 to $1000. I am curious why would someone pay over $1000 for a radio that esentially won't do anything more than a maxtrac? Is there something else that an analog only Astro is good for?

Larry is right -

I stand corrected - my pricebook for the XTS is showing a $700 upgrade to IMBE. Apparently, you can also take the pluge (if your pockets are really deep - and you want to be on the cutting edge of digita!!!!) and order Q243. VSELP for $700.

-Alex

My problem is I cant have A beer I have to have 12 beers!
Steve

I dont like icom either... I just think the whole P25 standard should be abandoned because it doesnt do ANYTHING except make your radios sound bad and frustrate people (plus blow your eardrum out when wearing a speaker mic and a abrubpt volume fluctuation takes place)....I'm listing to the state of florida right now and it sounds worse than nextel (which is no gold standard), then I switch to Boca Raton...Same thing, Delray Beach, same thing..then boynton beach, SAME thing...they are starting to call dispatch and car 2 car on their personal cell phones. This never happened with the old 800Mhz conventional GE equipment. The Analog side of the boca system for wastewater and public works sounds awesome though. This gives the police/fire emloyees the perception (not knowing anything about radios) that public works has better radios than the guys getting shot at or burnt up. LTS2000's vs. XTS3000's a fully analog smartnet system would have been a much better choice. Digital is gear'd towards lots of low altitude sites that provide an even coverage area (cellular style topology), two way radio has traditionally been 1 high altitude site you talk into (your lucky if you have voting). Virtually nobody can afford smartZone once you factor in the extra $$ just to be digital. They need to change their philosophy on how they build the systems if they want to make the customers happy. Many sites is going to equal many more $$ (that nobody has) therefore they should find some other technology and kick APCO25 to the curb.

"I am curious why would someone pay over $1000 for a radio that essentially won't do anything more than a Maxtrac? Is there something else that an analog only ASTRO is good for?"

Not really. It's just the fact that it CAN be uplifted to digital that makes it have added value, to some people. Economists refer to this phenomenon as "reservation demand." It's demand for a good that you recognize that you will most likely never consume, but you are willing to pay for it because just knowing the potential is there for future consumption makes it have increased value. Example: Some people are willing to pay some amount of extra taxes to preserve a park 2,000 miles from where they live. They know they will likely never visit it, but just knowing it is there and that someday they could/might go there makes it have value to them.

I understand Steve's remarks about analog vs. digital, but I'm afraid there is no stopping this train now. The next generation of Motorola’s high tier 2-Way product line will be almost 100% digital. For example, take their current top-of-the-line repeater, the Quantar. When the Summit begins shipping next year, it will be released initially in digital only, 700/800 MHz trunked only. Conventional and Mixed Mode (analog and digital) won't come along until later releases. The Quantar is now 12 years old, yet it will limp along for mixed mode folks for many more years to come. Top Tier/Big $ customers will be 100% digital, with no mixed mode operations. Look at MGEG and what's happening there.

As xmo once said in describing Motorola’s plans, "Analog, what's that?"

Larry

They will be digital if the customer likes it, if the customers dont like it then they will not buy it and they wil have alot of digital radio equipment with no one to sell it to....if the customer feels the level of service is poorer than the old equipment then they will never again deal with motorola or whomever led them down that path and convinced them, i guarantee it. It dosent matter what the manufact. wants or does, the market dictates. This is where your thinking (and motorola's) is erroneous. You can't brow beat people into going along with your plans, especially when it is clear as day to the customers perceptions that they just spent money on something so great and it performs worse than what they gave up. They would have an easier time fooling the customer into thinking it was better if it sounded as good as analog. if you sell somebody something new that is terribly expensive, and the perception is that it isn't working as good as the system they gave up or had, you will have alot of explaining to do and the trust factor is out the window. It's a simple case of over-promising and under-delivering. Their Legal department winning the case if a complaint is registed against them and the orginization wants money back or to shove it down their throats will only result in further distaste towards them and the domino effect begins. Take the state of florida and NYC for example. They may win a court battle but they will lose the overall war when it comes to trust and believability. Sure they save 1 deal but they lose 10 in the process when they show how ugly and dishonest they can be when they dont take responsibilty for their problems. There are only so many mayors and police chiefs they can fool before it really comes down on them and the word gets out...its just a matter of time, mark my words. The customer defines a market, not a manufactuer...apple computer learned this years ago when they became bossy about what everybody uses of thiers and guess what, the entire market and user base wet see-ya. As for the lack of spectrum issue...now that nextel has all the SMR and business customers (or at least a majority) All of their arguments are moot points. I'm telling you right now, I am investing my life into stopping (or at leat slowing down for another 20 years) Motorola's digital train. I will put a dent in their plans I guarantee you this...I have developed and made possibly one of the only TRUE interoperability systems on the planet and will stop at nothing to de-rail their criminally powered digital locomotive and all of the lies and poor performace it pulls behind it. [/i]

This is almost an exact reprint of what was said when cellular was in the early throws of converting from analog to digital. We all know how that story played out: analog cellular is dead (and there are still old timers complaining about it, as their false teeth fall into their stale, warm beer). Meanwhile, Motorola is laughing all the way to the bank. HooYaah!

Larry

Actually motorola missed the boat on the analog to digital cellular shift in the mid 1990's and was caught off guard completely because they were trying to sell $1000 Micro-TAC elite's and Star Tac 8600's which were the highest artform of analog phones, too bad people wanted free handsets with service and not engineering marvels (not everybody is a nerd or power user who appreiciates those works). They were more than late to the party when it came to digital cellular phones and they sufferd greatly because of it. I wouldnt quite say they are lauging all the way to the bank...it's more like limping. If it werent for iDEN, a cheap-o Star TAC (after 5 years wait) or the V60 they would pretty much be out of the handset market because of very few strategic alliances with service providers to offer their phone as the default cheap-o handset. Also they have very few infrastructure agreements other than iDEN. Nokia, Ericcsson, and qualcomm were the ones laughing to the bank while they leapfrogged motorola. They realized the power was in numbers while motorola believed in exotic products for the professional which sold few if any. So they are eating crap on a few different front and only recently been able make a little bit of a comeback in the cellular arena. Remember the Accompli 009? What a boon! I have one and use it right now and it's safe to say little ol' RIM and the blackberry blew them out of the water on that front as well. You can't give those things away.

All very interesting, but the primary point is that digital is here to stay---there's no stopping it. And, Motorola has zero competitors from an integrated, end-to-end P25 standpoint. Every single one of their supposed competitors' subscriber set products are the same high price as Motorola, if not even more $. Their competitors have only partial P25 solutions, at best. ICOM is shooting for $1,700 for a 16 channel P25 non-encryption capable portable, a price far above Motorola's existing XTS 1500. ICOM says it is a potential future product, as it's not anywhere near ready for production. I have heard that Kenwood is planning on a price point the same as ICOM's. So, given that P25 digital is here to stay (just like digital cellular), and given that Motorola has zero effective P25 competitors, it looks to me that Motorola is the one laughing all the way to the bank.

Larry

if it dosent work well, and it is not desirable (after the performance is observed, hell a digital Motorola radio is always desirable from a looks and cool factor standpoint) then it will not be here to stay because nobody will want it. They may take people for a ride on the first time buyers of digital market, but once users have been up that creek, and observed how much of an over hyped and how terrrible it works..they will not buy it again and the market for their products willl evaporate. I guess we will just have to see.

I think we have beaten this horse to death, and then some...

In any event, it will take 20 to 30 years to know how this movie ends.

Larry

Oh yeah they also thought that iridium was going to be recieved well by the markets they percieved as potential customers and was the be all end all....now look at it..bankrupt and bought by the bin ladens only to be bailed out of debt by our own military contract. Time will tell who is the winner of this argument. I still say digital will be eclipsed by other better thought out implementations.

Iridium you say? We use Iridium under contract requirement in liew of HF. We have been infinitely more happy with Iridium than HF. It's crystal clear, and completely reliably, unlike HF, which sounds like krap best case (when it's working perfectly), and we get a signal everywhere with Iridium. Thanks for remembering.

Larry