Batboard

At some point in the next several months, I'm going to be programming a fleet of VHF and UHF Moto Astro Spectra W7 mobiles w/all the bells and whistles. I assume they'll be the most recent version, etc. I don't have the software yet, but I'd like to do some preliminary setup brainstorming. I know the radios will hold 512 channels total; can someone tell me, generally, what limitations these radios have on things like number of groups of channels, number of channels per group, # of channels in a scan list, talkgroups, etc.? Thanks!

...R

the astro spectra doesnt hold 512 modes, you are thinking of the XTL5000/XTS5000

the spectra holds 250 (or 255 i cant remember which)

The W3/W7/W9 Astro Spectra will do 255 modes. The W4/W5 does 128. The XTL5000 will do 512 (all flavors).

Do a search of the Astro fourm http://batboard.batlabs.com/search.php You will find all your answers, as they have been bought up many times before.

If you are doing fleet work, I would sit down with someone at your MSS and have them go thru all the steps. Learning the software for the first time and using them in a public safety/commerical application will not the world's smartest idea. Have an experienced MSS tech sit down with you.

There are more options, check boxes, relational settings that WV has trailer parks!

Enabling one setting may have an effect on something in 4 or more different screens. By all means, sit down and play with the software, but don't go it alone!

Thanks to all. I know the Astro Spectra I have now does 255 modes (channels to the rest of the world!), but I've been told that we can upgrade them to 512, and I also understood that the VHF highband Astro we were getting was also 512, but it sounds like I've misunderstood something. I will be reprogramming these radios pretty frequently, and I know how tough it'll be, so I'll definitely take everyone's advice and sit down with the Moto guys and tap them for help. Thanks again.

...R

wm8s wrote:Thanks to all. I know the Astro Spectra I have now does 255 modes (channels to the rest of the world!), but I've been told that we can upgrade them to 512, and I also understood that the VHF highband Astro we were getting was also 512, but it sounds like I've misunderstood something. I will be reprogramming these radios pretty frequently, and I know how tough it'll be, so I'll definitely take everyone's advice and sit down with the Moto guys and tap them for help. Thanks again.

...R

Yes, the Astro Spectra can be upgraded to an Astro Spectra Plus... search around the board for details. That'll give you 512 modes, but still a quasi-bastard radio (from what I can tell, the Astro Spectra Plus is roughly analogous to the XTS3500). My bet is that the new radios you're getting will be XTL5000s.

The Astro Spectra software that I'm familiar with uses what I call the "MTSX metaphor" for programming. Basically, the radio has X "zones", each of which has 16 slots. Each slot in the zone can point to one "mode", which is a set of channel parameters for one channel. Each "mode" can point to one scan list, which is the list of channels that will be scanned if scan is invoked while that "mode" is selected with the channel selector. Scan lists, in turn, point to the zone slots for the channel to be included in the list.

Life gets simpler programming under this metaphor if you do the following:

First, start with a piece of paper and plan out your zones. I find it easier if you keep the "mode" pointers in order: that is, Z1C1 points to M1, Z1C2 points to M2, Z2C1 points to M17, and so forth. For any zone that has fewer than 16 channels in it, create "blank" modes to fill out the numbers (I use a simple RXO channel data for the "blank" modes). Now take another piece of paper with one column for modes 1 through whatever and fill in the basic channel data (freqs, tones, etc.)

Now go to the software and program the modes first, leaving the scan list selection blank.

Then go to the zones page and start populating your zones.

Now go to the scan list page and start populating the scan lists. Note that you can in theory program a different scan list for every mode, but this isn't practical (there is some unknown limit in terms of the radio's memory and probably also not enough time to program 255 scan lists within a human lifetime), and it usually isn't necessary for a working radio. Each scan list can have one or two priority channels, and the priority channels can "float" to the currently selected channel. We almost always make P1 float to "<sel mode>" and never use P2; this means that the user can conduct a comms without having to turn off scan. There is a feature called "talkback" scan, which in my judgment should almost always be defeated.

Now go back to the "modes" screen and fill in the scan list assignments for each of your channels.

I would start with an Excel spreadsheet of the modes for each band of radios. Frequency, scan options ect. When programming radios to those that are just users, I use the K.I.S.S method. Just enough to get the job done.

Good luck

mm

KISS is my watchword. Because of our somewhat unique mission, no matter how many channels I have available, these radios will be full (my hardest task will be picking which channels to program and which to leave out), and the users won't be using the radios a lot, so I'll need to make them easy to use. There won't be much scanning or use of other features, for that matter, so my job should be greatly simplified.

...R

Well... what are you looking to do? Most everyone here has done some sort of wacky programming setup, be it HAM, public safety, trunking, digital or just for a hobbiest radio.

Tell us what they are going to be used for, how you operate and who is using them (someone who can read directions or someone who needs their hand held).

Digital? Conventional, Trunked?

We might be able to set you into the right direction!

Pj wrote:Digital? Conventional, Trunked?

Yes!

Right now, nothing's cast in stone. But the plan is that I'll be programming around 60 UHF Astro Spectra W7 mobiles and the same number of whatever similar we get for VHF high, plus about the same number of comparable handhelds, for a large WMD response team. The goal is to be able to talk to everybody in the whole state as possible (poor-man's [?!] interoperability, plus we'll have luggable SMS-4000 or ACU-1000-esque gateways running eventually).

Here, that means quite a potpouri. There are some public safety systems that, of course, we won't be able to work into (low band, 800 MHz, EDACS, LTR, etc.) with our radios. But there are a lot that we will, and they represent a little bit of everything. Mostly conventional analog repeaters and simplex, of course, but there are several P-25 conventional repeaters and simplex channels (some encrypted, most not) and several P-25 UHF trunked systems coming on line, as well.

My current thinking is to organize the radios' zones by county, plus a handful for regional, statewide, etc., stuff. That would be, if possible, about 100 or so zones, each with from 1 or 2 up to as many as 20 channels (or whatever the max is). There are around 600 VHF high and 300 UHF systems in the state, so it's gonna be a challenge. I've programmed a lot of radios before, but never Motos, never this many radios, and never this many channels and technologies. I have my work cut out.

...R

Ok...works better! Sorry if I sounded short and terse in the previous threads...been busy here at work!

With the portables, you can do one of two things. If you have a display/full keypad model, you can put everything in one zone, and "dial in" a channel via a keypad command. If you wanted Huntington Fire which is say...channel 154, press the CHAN, 154, home and your there. LAPD is setup similariy this way. Downside, you need to keep a list with your, or somewhere accessable in a hurry if you need to change channels.

On off shoot of this, is you can disable the rotary knob or make it a zone selector.

Option 2: Setup one zone per county, city or whatever. 16 channels per zone. 32 possible zones if the radio doesn't take one channel away per zone. This is assuming a 512 channel radio.

The nice thing about the newer radios with CPS, is you can drag/drop 90% of the programming between the two radio's without having to type things in twice.

You will really need to sit down as people said above with some paper...graph paper works well...and just sit down and figure out who/what/where.

Depending on how you operate, you may want to consider creating several different programming files specific to different areas of the state or one for each county. Downside is that you will have to quickley drop the programming into the radio at or before arriving at an incident, but it works.

And to think that people though 128 channels were way too much!

Perhaps you've already been through this, but from your description, I think I'd pause a bit and think about the overall structure of your "interoperability" plan.

Basing "interoperability" of multiple resources on the concept of everyone having everyone else's "home channel" available to them has not worked ouit well in practice. For one thing, there are just too many channels, and in addition to the complication of training guys how to change zones and and channels, and then remembering something that they won't be using every day, there is the uncertainty of what channel is in use if that hasn't been made clear by the mobilization broadcast. We've seen repeated instances where guys are told to got to channel X and then have to ask, "How do I get this radio on channel X?" Likewise, we've seen cases where responding out-of-towners had to try multiple channels in order to find the one in use for incident-ground. Then there is the problem of obtaining the necessary paperwork, people who get aggravated when "their" channel isn't used properly, and the like.

What I think may be a better idea is to assign three or four channels per band as community wide "mutual aid" (or "interoperability" or "fireground" or "incident ground") channels, and then program them in everyone's radio. This minimizes the number of channels in the radios, minimizes the number of guesses you have to make to find the fireground, and keeps fireground traffic off dispatch channels. If the members of your group use different bands, then assign the same number of channels in each band, and use something like the ACU-1000 (or the NIDA R200, with which we've had good luck) to link Channel 1V with Channel 1U, etc. (Note that a major incident, it may be wise to have more than one channel in use: staging might well be on its own channel, as might logistics.)

I agree with RKG in the mutual aid aspect of things. On our province-wide SmartZone OmniLink system, instead of all radios having everyone's channels, they have gone with 6 seperate mutual aid talkgroups in eveyone's radios, as well as 2 simplex mutual aid channels. This allows all government/PD/FD entities in the province to interoperate anywhere, anytime. A standard method of procedure needs to be worked out between all agencies so everyone responds accordingly, but it works well. Not only does this save on programming 500 channels into every radio (which NO ONE is going to remember, or even manage to keep the 'sheet' for), it dramatically reduces resources being used on the trunked system, while keeping everyone in the loop.

Of course, there are also many common 'liason' channels between various agencies to interoperate without using the full-blown mutual aid channels...keeping them free for actual major incidents.

I know you are talking about conventional & not trunked channels, but the same logic applies as far as efficiency & ease of use. All interested parties should sit down & hash out the best working plan. It makes for a better system in the end.

Todd

Thanks for all of the tips. Sounds like I'll have to go with a smaller number of bigger zones, say by state region (we have six regions in the state, plus a few for statewide stuff; might still be manageable). And if zoning the radios takes away memory for more than just a few channels, I'll just not worry about zones at all and go with a channel number cheat sheet; as it is, I'm already pressed for memory at 512 channels per radio. When Motorola gets smart and hires me, then they will make a REALLY nice radio!

My first HT had two channels, and I thought that was one too many. ;^)

...R

[As for the interoperability thoughts, as much as I'd like to make the horse come to water, I'm afraid I couldn't implement any of the suggestions even if I wanted to. We don't know with whom (or even where in the state, for that matter) we'll be working on any given incident, so I need to make at least one or two channels for every department available in our radios. I'm not in a position to suggest that the 500 fire departments, 100 police departments, and 75 EMS providers, etc., in the state pick a couple of mutual aid frequencies. And eventually we'll probably be interacting with more than just PD, FD, and EMS.

So some kind of statewide plan, while a fantastic thought, just isn't do-able. I know there is a system in the works to address the bigger problem long-term, but for now my concern is only in making sure that our one little team can talk to everybody. {We have our own internal encrypted digital conventional and trunked systems that we lug around for our intra-team comms, not really an issue in my programming decisions.} The decision to have our team come up on local channels with permission of the locals when we arrive is pretty much the only solution for now. Our members are pretty sharp, so I think they'll be able to handle looking at a big cheat sheet and changing channels.]

Does your state support an ICALL/ITAC program? I'd look there, if it hasn't been brought up. Its easier to have a small fleet of those radio's, and have the towns get at least on of those radios. That's the new trend at least.

There is no significant public safety activity in the entire state on 800 MHz (a handfull of trunked systems, and a smaller handful of conventional scattered repeaters, AFAIK), so support for an ICALL/ITAC program (if by that you mean the 800 MHz I-CALL and I-TACn channels) wouldn't work without major league retooling, but otherwise it would be a great suggestion. Bear in mind that I'm not trying to solve statewide interoperability problems; I'm just trying to make my team able to talk with everybody.

In WV, public safety radio systems (and especially when using that term broadly, to include not just PD, FD, and EMS, but also public works, chemical manufacturing facilities, utilities, etc.) are [very] roughly evenly split between VHF low, VHF high, and UHF (favoring the latter two), with a smattering of 800 MHz, cell phones, CBs, and the odd FRS radio thrown in. Technology is largely conventional analog, but there certainly are a few trunked systems of all brands (at least a couple LTR systems, a coupla EDACS, and a coupla 450 and 800 Moto systems), and several P-25 systems (conventional and analog) on all bands. Plus we'd like to talk to neighboring states' border counties, and that multiplies the problem by about 10x. We've pretty much made the judgment call to stick to VHF high and UHF direct comms, program a 1000-channel P-25 scanner with everything else, implement a mobile crossband gateway down the road, and hope for the best.

In short, trying to talk everyone is hard enough; trying to get everyone to talk to everyone else is (a) impossible, and (b) way, WAY beyond my job title. I'm a pro bono volunteer; they'd have to double my salary to fix that problem!

...R