Batboard

This is an interesting article. The first part is nothing new---namely, digital ASTRO is the ultimate answer for interoperability.

The strange part of this article is that it says current scanners can not monitor the system. It goes on to say that Uniden is currently developing a new scanner to allow monitoring of this digital system.

Anybody know what gives?

Larry


Here is the article:

Tower boosts communications

By Catherine Kavanaugh

Daily Tribune Staff Writer

PUBLISHED: November 8, 2004

ROYAL OAK — A 256-foot communication tower is going up behind the Police Department to help connect all of Oakland County's rescue and public works employees.

City officials grilled the county about their reasons for locating the structure in downtown Royal Oak, where it will tower 90 feet above the tallest buildings. They offered up other sites, such as the public works yard on Campbell Road, but they were told the downtown has its advantages for the emergency transmission system.

"The radio engineers said it's best to have the tower near tall buildings, where the signal will be strong enough to permeate them," Assistant City Attorney Mark Liss.

In the end, Mayor James Ellison signed a contract allowing the construction, saying he would sacrifice aesthetics for the best radio coverage possible.

The tower will be part of a $32 million system made up of 36 transmitters covering the 900-square mile county. It will connect first responders from 41 police departments and 39 fire departments, allowing them to speak to one another during emergencies when several agencies are involved.

The need for a county-wide system became apparent in 1996, when a Wixom auto worker went on a shooting rampage. He killed a manager and injured three others before fleeing the scene. During the search for the culprit, police from various departments couldn't talk to each other because their radios weren't compatible.

The same communication crisis happened on a larger scale in New York City on 9/11. The firefighters and police officers inside the World Trade Center couldn't exchange information with one another when thousands of lives were at stake.

Joseph Sullivan, the former Ferndale police chief who now works for the county's Department of Information Technology, said the new system will be the "life blood of public safety."

In addition to providing communication across jurisdictional lines, for the first time ever it will allow police officers to talk to each other and receive dispatch information simultaneously.

"Right now police can't hear the dispatcher if they are using their microphones," Sullivan said. "This system is a quantum leap forward."

Besides improved communication, Royal Oak Police Chief Ted Quisenberry said the city will get about $1.2 million in computer hardware and other equipment for hosting the tower.

"We'll be gutting our dispatch center and installing new consoles and other internal components and then we'll issue new portable radios to the officers," Quisenberry said.

The Royal Oak tower is expected to go online early next year but the entire network won't be operational until all the towers are built and the licensing is approved. That will take at least 10 months.

Towers also are going up in Commerce Township, White Lake Township, Auburn Hills and Rochester Hills right now. Four more are in the planning stages, according to Patricia Coates, CLEMIS administrator for the county.

As local police switch to the new system, they will use digital, 800-megahertz band radios. Hobbyists who monitor home police scanners to find out why sirens are sounding in their neighborhood won't be able to pick up the signals.

The scanner manufacturers have yet to match the technology, which is digital with voice over Internet protocol, Coates said.

Sullivan is confident companies, such as Bearcat, will put out compatible lines of home scanners soon.

"The system wasn't designed to keep the public from listening," he said. "It's just very sophisticated."

Police don't mind the public tracking their calls, Sullivan also said.

"I think it's important to do as much business as possible in the public eye," he added. "It eliminates suspicion and you get the feel for the hard work done by the people on the ends of those radios."

Contact Catherine Kavanaugh at [email protected] or 248-591-2504.

Are you sure it's ASTRO? It doesn't say anywhere in the article who got the contract for the radio equipment.

A 256' tower in downtown Royal Oak, MI? That'll be interesting to see. It's been a few years since I've been there but I don't recall there being any horrendously tall buildings. That thing will stick out like a sore thumb!

Possibly Type3 trunking ?? I heard something about a year ago that M was working on something called Type 3 trunking?? Anyone else hear anything about that??

Frank

I'd say the reporter in question was just given outdated info in regards to current scanner capabilities.

Todd

She could have just taken the press release the county handed out and given it in to her editor as the "story." Typical non-techie writing job, filled with half truths and other misleading ideas. But I did like what the PD said about their not objecting to others monitoring.

But, man, I want one of them there radios that I can listen on while I've got the PTT switch pressed. That IS cool!

I hope someone remembers to tell them that they're supposed to use analog simplex on a fireground.

Micro duplexers in ASTRO portables---Yeah!

Yeah, I live in the area and have relatives that live near Royal Oak. KC8RYW lives in Oakland Co too, but I haven't seen him post much here lately. I'm sure he'd have pounced on this one before me!

At any rate, the Oakland Co. TRS is MA/CRAP OPENSKY and it still isn't fully operational. Most/all comms are on the old Motorola Analog TypeII system, which IMO works fine.

-Josh

serves the kerry supporters right buying opensky

what a joke



doug

OK, Josh, that explains the comment about Uniden developing a compatible scanner. So it wasn't the typical dumbass reporter---she really was right this time. I assumed it was ASTRO, since Motorola has about 97% of the IMBE P25 systems market.

Looks like Uniden has their work cut out for them: P25 Motorola, Krappy Open Sky, ICOM D-STAR, etc. Lifetime employment opportunities for Uniden EE's!

Larry

Apparently, Oakland Co. has been working on the Opensky thing since the beginning of 2002 and it still isn't working right.

I think PA state police are trying MA/COM crap too, but it still isn't operational either.

I don't think we'll ever need an MA/COM Opensky digital scanner because in the end those systems will be scrapped for the more popular IMBE/ASTRO25 setups that everyone else has.

Oakland Co. had to be different. Why not just join the MPSCS like everyone else- for interoperabilities sake instead of building some POS proprietary network that is compatible with nothing.

That's what I don't get, and they're paying for it. The Analog Mot system is still kickin' strong for however many years it has been up and running.

-Josh

MACOM is not crap... they are just having issues with OPENsky - the rest of their products work extremely well.

But why bother with M/ACOM digital equipment---their prices are not a penny less than Motorola's! Last time I checked, their P25 portable was $5,700, which is the same or more than a high tier XTS5000. M/ACOM has no P25 repeater, no consoles, etc.

I can see going for another P25 product, if it is priced considerably less. I was recently very dissappointed with ICOM, for example. ICOM recently issued a press announcement on a future, very low tier (e.g., no encryption, no display, etc) P25 portable that will carry a target price of $1,700. Motorola's P25 XTS1500 portable lists for $1,260. Why would I want a P25 rice rocket for the same, or in this case more, $'s?! Go figure...

Larry

Well, someone hasn't done their research on M/A-COM equipment before commenting. M/A-COM DOES in fact have a P25 repeater (MASTR III/IP), as well as a P25 console (Maestro IP), and a P25 switch (IPNC). They also currently have single site P25 trunking with multi-site P25 trunking coming soon. Yes M/A-COM portables are a little pricey, but the quality is excellent.

As far as OpenSky not functioning properly, lest we not forget all of the MAJOR problems both Philadelphia and Burlington County, NJ along with several others are experiencing with their "State-of-the-art" ASTRO Trunked Systems.

Why would I want to buy the stuff when it costs more than Motorola?!

Right now police can't hear the dispatcher if they are using their microphones," Sullivan said. "This system is a quantum leap forward."

yeah..the "all new and improved" XTS-5000 is NOT full duplex right...... ?

MA/COM is junk?

I can't speak for any of their new OpenSky or P2 products, but... I've used/owned numerous GE/Ericsson products, Digital (AEGIS) and Analog, and I've always been very impressed.

My Orion is probably the most versatile radio that I've ever used before, you can program anything to do anything, pretty much. Any button can do anything, any output/input can do anything, etc... As for their digital offerings, well, I've used AEGIS both professionally and personally, I've always been impressed...the audio is pretty comparible (dare I even say better than...) to Motorola's current P2 offerings.

So to say that MA/COM is crap really isn't a very educated answer. Some people might say that Motorola is crap, only because their experience with a Motorola system hasn't been that good.

M

wavetar wrote:I'd say the reporter in question was just given outdated info in regards to current scanner capabilities.

Todd

Either that, or maybe, even though it wasn't specifically mentioned in the article, it is going to be an encrypted system.

So the system only has interoperability because everyone is one the same system, not because it P25 which OpenSky is not, right?

So you on have interoperability if you are on the system. Hum.

Hey motorola is pushing the same silly interoperability ideas too....

OpenSky is just going through its teething problems like Motorola Astro systems...

Give it time it will work.

apco25 wrote:Hey motorola is pushing the same silly interoperability ideas too....

OpenSky is just going through its teething problems like Motorola Astro systems...

Give it time it will work.

The difference being P25 is the accepted North American standard for digital communications, thus will be used by the large majority of vendors, eventually bringing about interoperability between different users. OpenSky will have no part of this, and will IMO die a slow, eventual death. Kinda like VHS & Beta...it doesn't matter if it's as good or better...what's used by the majority will prevail.

Todd

wavetar wrote: OpenSky will have no part of this, and will IMO die a slow, eventual death. Kinda like VHS & Beta...it doesn't matter if it's as good or better...what's used by the majority will prevail.

aaaahhhh...

hope to see the same with MA/COM's ProVoice as well...

either that, or have them tow the line and do APCO-25 trunking...

I used to work for Oakland County. They don't get along with the State of Michigan nor want to play with the statewide P25 system hence the crazy OpenSky idea. Even though I have some serious issues with Michigan's P25 system, I think Oakland County is making a big mistake.

I couldn't agree with you more. If an agency is going to convert to P25 (and they should!) then the only game in town that makes sense is Motorola's ASTRO solution, whether it's Conventional IMBE or ASTRO 25 trunked. 99.99%+ of P25 system owners have made the right choice by going with a Motorola ASTRO solution. The rest of 'em are going to be stuck on their own little bizarre and isolated digital island(s), what with ProVoice or OpenSky non-P25 compatible systems. Like singing in the shower! Com Mgrs who go digital and opt for these 0.01% of the market custom digital mistakes ought to be canned for horrible judgment, and a gross misuse of taxpayers' money. We need a new provision in The Patriot Act: Any Com Mgr choosing a vendor other than Motorola for a digital system is guilty of treason, since it jeopardizes the safety of its citizens. A life sentence would be about right.

larry

Yep; Oakland County has so much money ts sick. They have a real beef with the State of Michigan so they don't want to share. The state's system is up all over but coverage is still very weak. Very soon I see us getting more in-building coverage as more communities join.

I'm still not impressed by any of this "interoperability" crap. Just about every analog system already is capable of interoperability and NOBODY USES IT. A billion tactical channels available yet they go unused. Yes I do know digital radio gives up more bandwidth and neat features (can disable,lock radios...) but I think this whole interoperability bandwagon is overrated. Government should crack open big M and make them share some technology knowledge regarding P25 with other companies. I use EFJ P25 portable on 800 that allegedly have the same guts as a XTS. We have been having issues that could have easily been fixed if Motorola would be a **little** friendly. What gives? Especially when your trying to call dispatch to tell them that your partner was shot and you can't because your non-Motorola radio wouldn't connect because of Greedy, Sick, Ravenous, Selfish /\/\ businessmen couldn't share a little info.

Please don't reply with "hey thats just how business works". Time for Motorola to be broken up like Msoft...lol

Just throwing the smokeorola name around doesn't solve anything or make a radio system better than another. I do totally agree with Astromodat that all public safety should be P25 digital, but I do not agree with it all being provided by one manufacturer such as Motorola. I have to admit that I do like the big 'M's equipment but there is other stuff out there that is just as good if not better. We still need some healthy competition and M/A-COM will provide it with their fully compliant P25 trunked system as soon as it is released for sale.

Taken from: http://www.radioreference.com/modules.p ... ic&t=18145

And like Josh said above... my callbook address is the City of Novi in Oakland County.

I can remember the day of the shooter at Ford's Lincoln Assembly Plant in Wixom, MI. That plant is maybe 5 miles from where I reside.

I know that after that incident, Wixom Police ditched UHF and went on to the county sheriff's 800 MHz Type II system.

I found this on Google:
http://www.macom-wireless.com/Channels/ ... R-7221.pdf

I especially liked how they put a quote by Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson in large font on the first page. Keep in mind, this man is a habitual DUI, and the only reason he is still in office is that he runs unopposed.

What does Tyco International not own???

You put on your SCOTT-Pak, start an IV with a KENDALL cathetor, check your patients O2 sat with a NELLCORE unit, put out a grease fire with an ANSUL extinguisher, later go home and shut off your ADT alarm, use NASHUA branded duck tape to fix the broken AMP connector on your strobe pack. Oh yes, they own MA/COM! yes yes yes

Isn't this company HQ'd in the Bahamas to avoid paying US taxes?

chipjumper wrote:Government should crack open big M and make them share some technology knowledge regarding P25 with other companies.

Motorola didn't invent P25 technology, and the implementation/development of it is open for any company to do. Motorola just saw the forest for the trees & immediately gave up on development of their own proprietary VSELP technology & jumped head first into P25 developement...years ahead of everybody else. Why should other late-comers (who're just jumping on the 'Homeland Security' money train) benefit from Motorola's engineering growing pains? The fact Motorola does it better than EF Johnson is a tribute to their forward thinking & a result of their development efforts over many years. If Motorola hadn't done it, EFJ wouldn't even have any P25 radios to offer. Neither would anyone else, for that matter.

Todd

I especially like how all the equipment pictures in the MA/COM Channels Magazine that Jonathan has a url to is all Motorola ...a MW520 ... a Centracom....etc........

wavetar wrote:(who're just jumping on the 'Homeland Security' money train)

Oh come on, don't make fun of the "Johnny come lately's". Motorola isn't spearheading the movement, they are financially exploiting it. Overcharging, racketeering, and profiteering!

chipjumper wrote:

wavetar wrote:(who're just jumping on the 'Homeland Security' money train)

Oh come on, don't make fun of the "Johnny come lately's". Motorola isn't spearheading the movement, they are financially exploiting it. Overcharging, racketeering, and profiteering!

Not making fun of them, just pointing out what should be obvious. Slam Motorola if you will, it's just as much a fault of the other manufacturers that they're the main P25 game in town. The EFJ & 'coming someday' ICOM P25 offerings aren't listed significantly cheaper than the M stuff either, and more expensive in some cases. Not to mention the M stuff works better (than the EFJ at least, haven't seen the ICOM vaporware yet).

A short note to those that forgot to mention DATRON as an upstart from the B/K folks?
Their basic P25 offering is listed at $3,500.00, and goes up from there, and the portables were designed to use XTS batteries as well
Since this company is so new, I doubt anybody has had the opportunity to put one of these radios through its paces and log the differences between all of them.
As far as the Orion model from G.E/Ericsson, that is one great radio, capable should be its middle name, those buttons can control lights, sirens, you name it.
If I remember correctly, they can be slaved to dual decks for VHF/UHF use as well.
I don't care for the programming layout, it's not very intuitive nor user friendly either, but once finished, you have a great radio that has a bright display and is easily read under sunlight.
Being an EDACS radio, this too, isn't compatible with P25, but is AEGIS digital ready.
High power Spectras have too many PA "issues" due to heating of the transistor pads which cause failure due to delamination.(although not P25).

Just my .02 worth on the topic.

73!
Ernest, AEC

Datron isn't new to the radio business, they have been around since at least the 80s cause I used some of their military radios. They have just recently entered the general market with a P25 radio and if I remember correctly its based on the Thales/ Racal 25 components and uses the software from that company. They have been in service with several Federal and military groups and federal related facilities.
Bendix which is now RELM also have a Project 25 radio which is based on the original Bendix line.