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Opinion wanted for selecting an antenna for a reciever site

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:09 pm
by Radiogeek97
I am trying to determine, which antenna to spec out for one of our reciever sites. Our system is a single channel conventional with a spectra tac voter in the 464.000 mghz range. The antenna in question is connected to a micor which acts as our main (closest to center of our operations) reciever and it is also our stand-by transmitter. I dont know what is up there now for an antenna, we will hopefully be pulling out the micor and replacing it with a quantar with new antenna.
The building is in the center of our campus and the antenna is on the roof (5stories) one hundred yards in every direction are various cement and steel buildings, there are also several steam tunnells directly under the building with the reciever that we are trying to cover. Currently we have "dead spots" that are pretty close to the outside perimiter of this building, it seems that the closer you get to the reciever the worse the reception is. I know the tunnels may need a BDA but our facilities dept is co-located at the same site as our micor and they have better (not great but better) reception than us. Granted they have a new kenwood repeater, and a unity gain antenna so i am wondering what i should put in this area.

Any suggestions would be welcome, this site is primarily used as a recieve site, but like i said once a year or so we may use it if our main is being serviced.

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:27 pm
by Will
In your application I would use a unity gain antenna, like the Comtelco BSF450U.

I have also used, with great success, the DB201, Cellwave/Radio Freq sys. 128-5FT or Sinclair SRL301 mounted upside down. This gives a downtilt and a very broad major lobe at and into the buildings. Be sure to weatherproof the antenna so moisture does not get into the 'back side'.

Remember too much gain, in this case any antenna gain narrows the major lobe which will overshoot your facillity. Antenna height, in this case 5 stories is NOT in your favor.

Is there a low building, one story, that the antenna could "look into" the rest of the biuldings?

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:37 pm
by Jim202
Your not alone in the shadow effect of the building on your signal from the antenna. The higher you mount the antenna above the roof, the less shaddow the roof edge of the building causes to near in use.

The other problem as was mentioned, is that you don't want an antenna with much if any gain. This just causes the shadow of the building roof to be extended further away.

Will may have the answer of mounting the antenna upside down. This takes the wasted energy that would normally not be usable and jam it into the near ground around the building. Just remember that the roof edge will shield any close in signals to the building.

Jim

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:06 pm
by nmfire10
Ditto on using little to no gain. Gain has it's place and this is not it. The upside down idea sounds like a winner.

See if that helps with your underground and building issues. If this allows you to hear the repeater everywhere, then you can just toss a remote receiver in the basement and call it a day.

Receiver signal coverage

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:24 am
by Dan562
Okay, you currently have at least 1 Micor Base Station Repeater with the C269 Option with Spectra-Tac Encoding output on a 4-W Telco circuit and this station apparently is also used as a “Standby station” to some sort a Primary Base Station Repeater.

What is the Primary Station; a Micor, a Quantar or M/A-com (GE) product?

Are these two repeater stations co-located within the same mechanical penthouse or two entirely different locations within your complex?

And where is the T1786B Spectra-Tac comparator located; with the Primary Repeater, with the Standby Micor Repeater or some other location within your complex?

How many TRN6091 Signal Quality Modules SQM (these modules have 3 different colored LEDs on the module’s front panel; Green, Yellow & Red) are installed into the T1786B Spectra-Tac comparator’s metal chassis?

Where are all of the Spectra-Tac Satellite receivers located within your complex? Do they have external antennas and/or Radiax coaxial cable (otherwise known as leaky line) with a 50 Ohm impedance two-way splitters mounted on the inside or outside of those buildings?

On top on the main building where this Micor Standby Repeater’s receiver is located, Is there a metal tower mounted to the penthouse’s wall with the antenna mounted on this structure or just a vertical antenna mounted on a pipe to the penthouse wall? This is a very important consideration for future mounting of an inverted antenna attempting to enhance down ward signal penetration throughout the complex.

The older Micor station has the specification of .5uV@20dBm for the receiver’s Quieting level, the Quantar’s receiver is specified at .25uV@20dBm Quieting level which automatically translates into a +6dB increase in the station’s receive sensitivity capability.

From what you have provided, I believe there’s something else happening in the Satellite Receiver and Voting Comparator system which is not apparent to you.

Dan

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:44 am
by Radiogeek97
Dan let me try to answer your points as best i can.

1) the primary site is a quantar located about 2 miles from our center campus. It is at a hospital and goes through a combiner, supplied by the site owner. I assume that there is a hi gain stick but i dont have access to their roof.

2) the primary/stand-by repeater stations are not co-located

3) the comparitor is located at our stations dispatch area and is not co-located with any of the equipment (only the console)

4) there are 3 squims in the comparitor 1 for the quantar, 1 for the micor/stand-by and 1 for the msr2000 located in our tunnel

5) 1 of the satelites is the quantar base station/transmitter w/external antenna

1 of the satelites is the micor on top of a 5 story building that antenna (unknown type) is mounted on a tower i think 2 sections

The last reciever is an msr2000 located in the tunnell area, we dont know where the antenna is for that!!!! it does not appear to be feeding leaky cable, the reciever works somewhat but the problem is that there is NO Talk-in coverage in that area. If you are close enough to the tunnell reciever you can get out, but you cant hear the main repeater located about 2 miles away and up on a hill. If you switch to the stand by transmitter you can hear in to that area much better but not 100% probably due to the antenna on the micor. The stand by is located about 1 building over and 6 stories up relative to the tunnel area.

1

RF System Coverage including underground Tunnels

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:28 pm
by Dan562
Well, I can understand what is happening in the system design from what you have provided here. I can almost bet that the UHF Micor repeater was first sold to the customer. Then personnel started to complain about the RF system’s coverage so the customer’s management called the /\/\ account representative back in to advise and recommend what would be needed to aid the in-house and on campus RF coverage.

By this time, the Micor Base Station product were no longer available. The /\/\ account rep advised the customer to purchase a MSR2000 Base Station repeater with the Option C269 Spectra-Tac Encoder on the Receiver’s Wire Line. Then there was a Spectra-Tac T1786B Comparator added thinking this would alleviate the “poor RF system coverage” in the reinforced concrete tunnels, with a vast amount of metal steam pipes, etc routed through those under ground tunnels.

There’s no way calculate the exact amount of attenuation / RF path losses in those tunnels without a Spectrum Analyzer / Field Strength Meter, with at least one technical person several days to make those measurements and recording the information. This is basically doing an RF engineering study on your system site and someone has to pay for that person’s time $$$$$$$ being out there.

By the time your management decided to add the Quantar (2 miles away), it appears that someone decided they needed wide area coverage too. Since the Quantar is fed into a RF Combiner system, it’s difficult to assume any thing on how this is configured. There could be separate feed lines for the Transmitters Combiner cavities with antenna and the Receivers having an active (pre-amp) receiver multi-coupler at the antenna fed to each station. Or it’s possible that the RF site uses a RF Combiner with a Duplexer and one feed line up to the antenna, probably at least +6dB to +9dB to compensate for the Combiner (-3 dB). Circulator (-.5 dB), Duplexer (-1.5 dB) and Heliax (-1 dB) feed line losses.

Just figuring the Quantar transmitter output RF power being 100 W and -6 dB combined losses equals 25 W at the base of the antenna. If the antenna has +6 dB Gain, then the radiated signal would be 100 W Effective Radiated Power. If the antenna equals +9 dB with the same 25 w at the base, the power would equal 200 W Effective Radiated Power but the signal penetration will not be downward into your campus and especially into the tunnels where it’s most needed. It will be radiated farther over the horizon miles away from your campus site.

Your underground tunnels can pose additional path losses, any where between -10 dB and –40 dB from the Quantar Base Station Repeater (2 miles away). If you have Buildings, Tree foliage and Hills in the way of the RF transmitted signal that will reduce the needed RF level to penetrate those tunnels and some of the ground floors of the buildings.

The Subscriber hand held units using a standard ¼ wave Heliflex antenna at head level reduces the effective RF power 4 W output by -6 dB equivalent to 1 W. If your personnel are using the Heliflex Stubby antennas at head level the same 4 W RF power output is equivalent to 400 MilliWatts. If your personnel are using their Subscriber hand held units at waist level with external Speaker / Microphones, then the 4 W RF power output is equivalent to 200 MilliWatts because of body absorption.

Let me explain simple dB losses. Using a transmitter with 100 W as a reference level and having -10 dB loss would equivalent to 10 W at the Subscriber Hand held unit. Still a very strong received signal.

If you took the same 100 W reference signal and having -20 dB loss would equivalent to 1 W at the Subscriber hand held unit. Strong but could become marginal in some locations.

If you took the same 100 W reference signal and having -30 dB loss would equivalent to 100 MilliWatts at the Subscriber hand held unit. Marginal signal in most areas and some “Dead Spots” could be found around the campus.

If you took the same 100 W reference signal and having -40 dB loss would equivalent to 10 MilliWatts at the Subscriber hand held unit. Very marginal signal in most areas and many “Dead Spots” could be found around the campus.

If your campus is a hospital complex, I can bet there are several locations within the buildings, such as X-Ray departments (with lead lined walls) with your Subscriber Hand held units probably encounter “Dead Spots” both ways trying to access the repeater system.

On your T1786B Spectra-Tac Comparator, What is installed for the Console Dispatch, a DC Keying module or a Tone Keying Module?

Has the MSR2000 Base Station Repeater ever been used as a transmitter to provide RF signal coverage into the tunnel system for the additional signal penetration?

Since you have many tunnels within the complex, Are you experiencing the path losses and “Dead Spots” in all of these tunnels too?

Who does your maintenance on the 3 different Base Stations and the Comparator, an employee or an outside /\/\ Dealership?

As I see the problem, it’s centered around the underground tunnel system coverage in the complex not the Micor Stand-by Repeater / Satellite receiver site with the Spectra-Tac Encoder on top of the 5/6 story building and the main Quantar Base Station Repeater RF signal output not being able to RF penetrate those many system tunnels.

Not being able to view your campus / complex of the underground tunnel systems would be the first place to install Andrew’s Radiax Coaxial cable and 50 Ohm RF power splitters connected to the MSR2000 Base Station Repeater. When mounting Radiax in those tunnels, keep the Radiax coaxial cable away from the metal steam pipes and electrical conduit as far as possible to allow the Radiax to provide the ability to transmit and receive signals from the Subscriber hand held units.

You and your management team must understand that purchasing and installing Radiax coaxial cable is very expensive up front but in the long term this cable will pay for itself many times over by providing the necessary system coverage you want and need.

Dan

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:49 am
by Radiogeek97
Dan

thanks for taking the time to try and answer my questions, I do appreciate the tim eyou took !

As far as I know the MSR has never been used to provide RF coverage, it is strictly used as a reciever. I think its been there for years and probably put there as a band-aid approach. The right thing to use ia a BDA with radiaxbut i can see sombody doing this to save$ but it just does not work because there is no incoming RF.

The Comparitor / console is set up for tone the only thing in there is the 3-squims the command module and the tone keying module.

The tunnels are all interconnected and varry between 1/2 story out of ground with windows to 1-1.5 stories with no windows. the dead spots in these areas varries according to how deep you are (depending on section) and if you are near one of the windows. if i was to hazzard a guess i would say that there is no coverage in about 25% and the rest of the area is margional at best.

99% of our officers use speaker mics (non pub saftey type) from their waist and we use ht1000 portables although 1 officer uses an astro saber :oops: (guess who)

There are other dead spots in our service area 2 in particular are outside but as best as i can tell they are probably experiencing some kind of shadow effect from surrounding buildings. If you are in one of those shadow areas your coverage is iffy, but walk 20 or 30 feet or 1/2 block in either direction you are ok. The main xmitter is still about 2 miles from this area, and it is soo high that it looks down on all of our operational area. The next closest reciever (micor) is say a mile away but it is not verry high compared to the surrounding areas where we have the other dead spots. Inthe case of this reciever in relation to the other dead spots (excluding the tunnels) there are probably 13 buildings in the way (line of site) and they are all multi story varing construction.

In closing a few things must be said our operational area is RF hell I can look up and see 2 50+ story buildings that are antenna farms so to say we operate in an rf saturated enviorment woould be like saying bill gates is an ok business man.
As far as the micor reciever goes if you dispatch which i somtimes do, you can watch the voting display bord on the console, and it always recieves a signal but rarely (25%) of the time "Votes" even though nearly 80% of our coverage area is within 1/2 mile radius of the reciever.
Another thing not working in our favor is the fac that out Pd comms are not on a public saftey pool they are in the business UHF band and w have other users in the area (county) I know this is a licensing issue back when we got radios I am sure campus pd's mabee did not qualify for the "public saftey frequency pool". Eventually as we modernize our infrastructure (to computer based stuff) changing frequencies would not be soo bad, most of the subscriber units can do the 12.5 khz bandsplit so if we ever get a new license that change over could hopefully take place smoothly.
The last thing i will throw out is that nearly 100% of our guys operate off of handheld units, even when in a car ( i do it myself) we tend to use the shoulder mic from our portables. When you use the mobile radio 25W i think they are talk in to the system is nearly 100% from everyplace.


thanks again for the info

RF System Coverage

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:29 pm
by Dan562
I believe there’s some form of written communication’s disconnects within our correspondence between us. My understanding of the maze of tunnel’s combined with the above ground external and internal building path losses adds up to a sub-standard and unreliable system coverage for your Public Safety two-way radio system. There’s a process to unravel what has transpired throughout the years at your complex. In each reply between us, I’ve been able to extract more information related to the overall system coverage problems that you and your Public Safety personnel are experiencing on a daily basis so let’s continue our dialogue.

I’m attempting to provide you with alternative ideas and solutions to help correct the under lying problems that have not been properly addressed for the system coverage of your entire complex.

Let’s start at what we’ll both understand with your Motorola equipment and the terminology used by RF Technicians and Engineers alike and now you’ll be better able to understand the terms too.

RF: Radio Frequency, the designated (FCC) Wireless Carrier Channel licensed and assigned for the user.

Watts: A measurement of energy or power. In this case, used as referenced for the Transmitted RF Carrier Frequency when measuring Forward Power Output and/or Reflected Power from the antenna system. A typical method of measuring the RF Power is using a Bird RF Wattmeter or equivalent (test equipment) on a 50-OHM system. The symbol commonly used for Watts is the letter “W”.

FM Receiver Sensitivity: The electrical measured amount of RF Carrier energy to fully Quiet Q a given receiver per engineering and manufacture’s specifications. This is typically measured in microvolts and the symbols are uV, milli-volts mV and volts V. A typical specification for Receiver Sensitivity should be measured directly at the receiver as: .25uV up to .5uV for normal specs. When reading the manufacture’s sales literature it may specify .25uV @ 20 dB Quieting or .18uV @ 12 dB SINAD but you can not mix and match the reference levels for true Analog FM measurements. It’s got to be referenced either all as Quieting or SINAD.

Something like comparing Apples and Oranges as they’re both fruit but not exactly the same. So let’s not confuse the issue. The other thing to remember is the sensitivity measurements such as, the larger the number, the worse the performance capability of a receiver will be capturing the Subscriber’s handheld TX signal.

For an example, i.e. Rcvr A =.5uV @ 20 dBQ versus Rcvr B = 5uV @ 20 dbQ. The handheld can always be captured by Rcvr A but only if the person is very close to Rcvr B will the hand held’s signal be detected and the TX audio signal heard at the console and routed to the repeater’s TX. There could be multiple reasons that Rcvr B is having this problem. A defective component in the receiver, path losses due to building construction materials, a poor choice of feed line and antenna, the improper implementation of the radio equipment or all of the above.

Path Loss Path losses can be caused by several things such as: Buildings –10 to –40 dB depending on the construction materials, Trees and Foliage –6 dB, Hills –14 dB @ 50 Feet, Coaxial cable / Feedline –1.5 dB, Duplexers -1.5~2 dB and Portables -13 dB.

System Gain Receiver Sensitivity, Pre-Amplifiers and Base Station Antennas +3 dB, +6 dB or +9 dB.

1 - UHF Micor TX P.O. 75W and RX .5uV @ 20 dBQ with the C269 Spectra-TAC WL Encoder Option. Manufactured from 1975 till 1986.

1 – UHF MSR2000 TX P.O. 100W and RX .5uV @ 20 dBQ with the C269 Spectra-TAC WL Encoder Option. Manufactured from 1982 till 1992.

1 – UHF Quantar TX P.O. 100W and RX .25uV @ 20 dBQ with the C269 Spectra-TAC WL Encoder Option. Manufactured from 1991 till 2006.

1 – T1786B Spectra-Tac Analog (Audio) Signal Comparator with 3 SQMs and Tone Keying Module. Manufactured from 1974 till 2005.

1 – Centracom Tone Remote Control Console

You might have noticed there’s a difference between the Micor / MSR2000 and the Quantar’s UHF Receiver’s Sensitivity specifications. When the receiver’s sensitivity vary from .25uV to .5uV for Quieting levels then this can create the next system problem purely by accident. The Failure is known as ”Down Voting”.

Now, here’s something you can experiment with on the T1786B Spectra-Tac comparator. Since there are 3 SQMs which are designated for the recovered audio path for each individual receiver site. Disable Only the Quantar’s receiver site using the Disable switch on the module’s Front Panel. This will have no effect on the site’s transmitter but will force the Micor’s receiver to be selected and audio signal routed to the Spectra-Tac comparator and then Voted. I would recommend this to be done for a minimum of 8 hours and a maximum of 48 hours. Have your Dispatchers keep accurate notes on the performance of the system coverage issues … Good and Bad. Please send me the results for analysis via the PM method unless you would rather post the information for everyone on the forum to evaluate. The choice is yours.

Let’s discuss better utilizing the UHF MSR2000 Base Station Repeater versus purchasing a brand new Bi – Directional UHF RF Amplifier. First of all, these are two different RF pieces of equipment that I believe you’re confusing as one for the use in your below ground level tunnel system.

The Motorola MSR2000 UHF Base Station Repeater is currently set up on the same pair of frequencies as your Micor and Quantar stations. Although the MSR2999 is placed in one of the underground tunnels with some type of an antenna of unknown origin or manufacture, the station does exist and occasionally routes the receiver audio back to the comparator and on to the console. I believe when the idea of selling this station into the system, either the /\/\ account representative or your higher echelon could have forgotten or refused the idea of using Andrew’s Radiax* coaxial cable and a 50-Ohm antenna splitter because of the up front cost to purchase and install.

This is something you should highly consider for all of the tunnels interconnected within your complex. I would also consider relocating the MSR2000 to a more central location within the underground tunnel system. Since the MSR2000 is a true repeater with the C269 Spectra-Tac Receiver / Encoder Option, it provides a better way to use both the Transmit and Receive on channel functions to provide the needed coverage.

The UHF Bi – Directional RF Amplifier (BDA) is a good method to boost RF signals used in conjunction with Radiax and/or Heliax coaxial cable systems. The BDA is a pair of Class “A” RF amplifiers operating in a Full Duplex system mode all the time tuned on or near the customer’s frequencies. This amplifies the relatively small signals from Subscriber hand held units in a tunnel system using several thousands of feet of Radiax RF coaxial cable for better signal penetration both on transmit and receive.

The BDA can be used with an existing UHF Base Station Repeater connected on the same feed line or not. The use of a BDA is added into a RF system when all other equipment fail to provide the required system coverage. It’s an expensive process to under take calculating the RF measurement levels and man-hours of time in the poor coverage areas. Then recommending the correct amount of equipment hardware required to purchase and accomplish this task. The installation time to install the BDAs and cable could be sub-contracted out to a local electrical contractor.

Since you’ve consider inverting the antenna at the Micor receiver site, I would recommend adding a tower arm to extend the antenna away from the tower therefore reducing any tower metal shadowing effects from happening. An ounce of prevention is worth ten pounds of cure. This may drive some signal downward but I doubt it will allow better signal penetration into and out of those tunnels. The theory behind the inverted antennas is based upon what is called the “Radiation Umbrella Effect” or in other words, you can be standing within eye shot of the antenna but with your hand held Subscriber units, you can not access the repeater system or you’re very noisey. I don’t have any suggestions how to deal with the owner of the RF site 2 miles away from your campus. It sounds like he’s a self maintained owner of the site and the customer owned equipment.

The use of passive antenna systems have their advantages but you must keep your RF coaxial cables as short as possible and use preferably ½” Heliax with high gain UHF +6 ~ +12 dB Yagi antennas on the outside pointed directly at the main repeater site and on the inside, use +3 to +6 dB Gain Verticals mounted near or along the tunnel walls out of the way for pedestrian traffic.

The Spectra-Tac comparator works on a 20 dBQ signal so all of the Base Station receivers will require to be set-up for the worst receiver sensitivity being measured by your System Technician. As an example, i.e. .4uV @ 20 dBQ and using that as the reference, setting other two receivers at the same levels with the ”And Squelch” feature incorporated on all Motorola Base Stations will better allow the audio comparator to function correctly. The Spectra-Tac audio comparator switches on a 2 dB change in AGC signals strength. The Spectra-Tac comparator only requires a Telco RT2002 Grade line but the Systems Technician should equalize each Telco pair between the remote receiver sites and the comparator.

The BDA would be my last recommended solution to your system coverage situation as there are many other alternatives to solve the RF coverage.

*OEM Suppliers and Reference Material Sources:

http://www.andrew.com/ ½” Heliax, Radiax, Antennas & Connectors

http://www.antenex.com/ UHF Yagi & Vertical Antennas

http://www.comtelcoantennas.com/index.htm UHF Yagi & Vertical Antennas

http://www.kathrein-scala.com/ UHF 380~512 MHz 50-Ohm Power Dividers

http://www.tessco.com/products/productHierarchy.do

This should provide you with some knowledge and alternative ideas for up grading your Two-Way Radio Communications System.

Dan

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:30 pm
by Radiogeek97
dan


thanks for the complete and thurough responce!! i will read through it carefully to make sure i understand it fully.


thanks

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:32 am
by WB5ITT
Radiogeek97 wrote:Dan

As far as I know the MSR has never been used to provide RF coverage, it is strictly used as a reciever. I think its been there for years and probably put there as a band-aid approach. The right thing to use ia a BDA with radiaxbut i can see sombody doing this to save$ but it just does not work because there is no incoming RF.
If your PD has a union, they need to get involved and SCREAM as loud as possible....savings bucks when LIVES are at stake is stupid and only costs more in the long run....a GOOD Bi directional amp, couple of yagis and Radiax in the tunnels will fix the two way problem.....and allow the talkies to be HEARD as well as HEAR the rptr...then you just need to worry about your current setup...I would make a Quantar the main rptr...and put the MICOR or other radio to standby/rcv status......and continue to use the voter.
You probably dont need to change much of your system out...just put the Radiax and BDAs in and you're a LOT better off...and it WILL save you money down the road....(YOU CAN PAY NOW OR PAY MUCH MORE LATER is the thought here!)

Chris

Good Thread!

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:32 am
by davco3
I agree with Dan562's synopsiys of the situation generally, and I find no fault with with his technical descriptions.

I would stress that someone should figure out exactly what is up with the MSR2000 station set-up. I wonder if the receiver is functioning and in good order, or if the antenna is bad. If you have the transmitter in the station, use it!

The advice with the micor antenna is good (unity gain), but listen about putting the antenna off the side of the tower or metal pole (over 18" ?) to reduce shielding.

One issue no one has brought up is receive line levels into the voter. Your voter tone levels need to be the same (I say +/- 1.5 dbm) and then adjust the voter. Your general receive line levels should be checked at the same time. (not much experience with M voters, just GE) My experience has shown that good line levels equal better performance in receiver choosing.

You could consider upgrading the Micor with a used MSR2000 as a band-aid (something with better receiver specs). [Don't just do this though]

Another thought is to sacrifice wide area coverage at the Quantar site and run a low gain yagi or corner reflector through a dedicated duplexor. A dedicated duplexor would decrease some receive desense as an additional benifit. This would point only at your campus and hopefully not at any of the antenna farm high rises also. The building tenant might do this because yagis don't take up much tower space, but it would be another run of coax.

The best advice is to utilize the the MSR2000 (RX & TX) with a well designed antenna system (splitter w/ Radiax)

This advice is probably worth what you paid for it! ;)