WOW! This looks exciting! I like the fact that they are using the DVSI AMBE +2 VOCODER. Way to go!
http://www.icomamerica.com/press/defaul ... d=20050406
ICOM-Kenwood Joint Venture NEW 6.25 kHz Digital Radio!
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ASTROMODAT
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Kenwood had some of the Beta versions @ IWCE in april. Repeaters and like 5 or 6 portables looked like it used the TK272 portable chasis.looked cool and sounded great but time will tell how it all pans out in the "real world" (multi path & what not )
The R&D rep from kenwwod said that it was not meant to replace or go in place of P25 but to make Digital a reality for the comercial user. From the information I have gathered it would be about 10-20% more cost than a compearable analog radio.
scheduled release date is next april or later .
JD
The R&D rep from kenwwod said that it was not meant to replace or go in place of P25 but to make Digital a reality for the comercial user. From the information I have gathered it would be about 10-20% more cost than a compearable analog radio.
scheduled release date is next april or later .
JD
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ASTROMODAT
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I can't realistically see much hope of Icom-Kenwood being successful with a non-P25 digital radio for commercial use.
Let's face it, for these sorts of commercial/non-LEO applications, folks will not be using encryption. Look at Motorola's price points for P25 gear without encryption. The XTS1500 and the XTL1500 are now going for street prices of just over $800, NEW. Unless Icom-Kenwood prices their digital subscriber gear at $400-$500, it ain't going to hack it in the marketplace. And, I bet if they dropped to $500 or so, we'd see Motorola match them, but then Motorola would beat them hands down since they are P25.
On the other hand, if Icom-Kenwood would price their stuff at $300, it might catch on, but I can't see this either given that their legacy analog FM radios are street priced around $450. Heck, Icom's P25 low end portable lists at $1,700, and its street price is $1,300.
I'm afraid there's not much real hope here for true price competition, kids. Not unless: 1) Icom-Kenwood PROFOUNDLY dump their prices, and 2) Motorola fails to match 'em. I doubt we'll see this.
Sigh...
Let's face it, for these sorts of commercial/non-LEO applications, folks will not be using encryption. Look at Motorola's price points for P25 gear without encryption. The XTS1500 and the XTL1500 are now going for street prices of just over $800, NEW. Unless Icom-Kenwood prices their digital subscriber gear at $400-$500, it ain't going to hack it in the marketplace. And, I bet if they dropped to $500 or so, we'd see Motorola match them, but then Motorola would beat them hands down since they are P25.
On the other hand, if Icom-Kenwood would price their stuff at $300, it might catch on, but I can't see this either given that their legacy analog FM radios are street priced around $450. Heck, Icom's P25 low end portable lists at $1,700, and its street price is $1,300.
I'm afraid there's not much real hope here for true price competition, kids. Not unless: 1) Icom-Kenwood PROFOUNDLY dump their prices, and 2) Motorola fails to match 'em. I doubt we'll see this.
Sigh...
where are you getting prices from most of the kenwood stuff is in the $3-400 range for mid line portables if you add 10-20% to that it might make it $500.00 for a full featured radio that will do 2 tone (sorry had to dig the XTS5K)but that sure beats $800.00 and only getting to deal with 1 dealer (the Motorola AGENT for your state) that ultimately dictates your price.
This is just an attempt to show the world that Motorola is not the only game in town. I am sure that A Kenwood digital repeater will be nowhere near the cost of a Quantar and will also be sure that however they decide to trunk it LTR, Passport or something new (passport would be my guess) it will also not be as much as a Smartzone system (remember comercial users don't need all the bells and whistles that PS & L.E need) they just need it to work and work well.
don't get me wrong P25 works for GOVT agencies that can spend my Tax dollars to Install & replace The system, but most of my customers don't have millions to spend on radio's and infrastructre and none of them have workers that have $5000.00 portables on there hip.
I do not know any Radio shops that could afford to install a P25 system have it make any money for even 5-10 years and that a long return on investment.
rant mode off (sorry)
This is just an attempt to show the world that Motorola is not the only game in town. I am sure that A Kenwood digital repeater will be nowhere near the cost of a Quantar and will also be sure that however they decide to trunk it LTR, Passport or something new (passport would be my guess) it will also not be as much as a Smartzone system (remember comercial users don't need all the bells and whistles that PS & L.E need) they just need it to work and work well.
don't get me wrong P25 works for GOVT agencies that can spend my Tax dollars to Install & replace The system, but most of my customers don't have millions to spend on radio's and infrastructre and none of them have workers that have $5000.00 portables on there hip.
I do not know any Radio shops that could afford to install a P25 system have it make any money for even 5-10 years and that a long return on investment.
rant mode off (sorry)
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ASTROMODAT
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One more time...
IF, and that's a HUGE IF, Icom-Kenwood introduce a digital voice AMBE +2 radio for $500 equipped, then I would expect that Motorola would immediately respond by offering their current $800 (street priced) XTS/XTL1500 P25 radios for the same $500, give or take a bit. In this case, they'd kill Icom-Kenwood's offering, as Motorola is a universally compatible P25 radio, and not some non-standard/proprietary, "what's-best-for-today" new scheme.
If Icom-Kenwood launches a $500 digital radio AND Motorola fails to price match, then Yes, in this unlikely scenario, we might see the marketplace willing to go with a highly risky, proprietary island, albeit I doubt it, as there would be no compatibility with anyone, except themselves. And, we all know what happened to Beta, though it was far superior to VHS.
I rest my case.
IF, and that's a HUGE IF, Icom-Kenwood introduce a digital voice AMBE +2 radio for $500 equipped, then I would expect that Motorola would immediately respond by offering their current $800 (street priced) XTS/XTL1500 P25 radios for the same $500, give or take a bit. In this case, they'd kill Icom-Kenwood's offering, as Motorola is a universally compatible P25 radio, and not some non-standard/proprietary, "what's-best-for-today" new scheme.
If Icom-Kenwood launches a $500 digital radio AND Motorola fails to price match, then Yes, in this unlikely scenario, we might see the marketplace willing to go with a highly risky, proprietary island, albeit I doubt it, as there would be no compatibility with anyone, except themselves. And, we all know what happened to Beta, though it was far superior to VHS.
I rest my case.
universal to "public safety and government"
I have no P25 Commercial systems anywhere near me and I am in the 6th largest city in America.
I have never read any articles about any commercial provider offering P25 service to indviduals or companies(not public safety) have you ?
it would be supported by more than 1 radio provider Kenwood (which is the #2 radio provider to public safety)and also offers P25 radio's
and Icom (which also offers P25 radios) ??
I guess if they see that there is money in it and are investing in it then they probably know more than we do about it ?? after all we are just speculating about it they are doing it .
I have no P25 Commercial systems anywhere near me and I am in the 6th largest city in America.
I have never read any articles about any commercial provider offering P25 service to indviduals or companies(not public safety) have you ?
it would be supported by more than 1 radio provider Kenwood (which is the #2 radio provider to public safety)and also offers P25 radio's
and Icom (which also offers P25 radios) ??
I guess if they see that there is money in it and are investing in it then they probably know more than we do about it ?? after all we are just speculating about it they are doing it .
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ASTROMODAT
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As P25 radios reap the benefits of TONs of DHS supported sales for the Public Safety Sector, we shall SOON see P25 becoming the norm even in the commercial world. Analog FM will fade away, as it is replaced by P25. Look what happened to analog in the cell phone world! And, P25 Phase II is poised to support 4 talk paths per 25 kHz channel.
What happens when P25 catches on like wild fire in the Public Saftey Sector as DHS funds TONs of new systems, and P25 trickles down to the commercial marketplace? P25 prices plummet!
Now, do you want to be on a deserted island like Sony was with Beta, or are you going to want compatible P25 radios?
I think P25 wins big time over these various "flavor-of-the-month" club approaches!
And, remember Motorola's marketing machine! In this likely scenario, I don't see Icom-Kenwood making any headway. Even their Ham sales are plummeting.
Some free advice: Don't bet against Motorola in the two-way land mobile market, including both the commercial and Public Safety Sectors. And, Motorola is going with P25, and not some best-of-the-month recipe.
What happens when P25 catches on like wild fire in the Public Saftey Sector as DHS funds TONs of new systems, and P25 trickles down to the commercial marketplace? P25 prices plummet!
Now, do you want to be on a deserted island like Sony was with Beta, or are you going to want compatible P25 radios?
I think P25 wins big time over these various "flavor-of-the-month" club approaches!
And, remember Motorola's marketing machine! In this likely scenario, I don't see Icom-Kenwood making any headway. Even their Ham sales are plummeting.
Some free advice: Don't bet against Motorola in the two-way land mobile market, including both the commercial and Public Safety Sectors. And, Motorola is going with P25, and not some best-of-the-month recipe.
not to get too far off topic here but have you seen there DTR550 & 650 and there sales figures (talk about flavor of the month ) 900MHZ 1 watt & no way to interface a repeater (I see a winner here) oh wait proprietary and talks to no one else ??????????and a list price of $385.00 and $400.00 respctively?( for a job site radio) I think this takes the best of the month cooking contest
but I know Motorola makes no mistakes (in your eyes)
how about that HT750 oh wait the PR860 will take its place (too many problems with the HT750)straight from the reps mouth@IWCE
how about the HT1250 & its display problems that the Depot can't fix???
or the units inherent power cycling problems??
or lets talk pagers shall we start at the Min3 or move to the Min 4 oh wait they both have the same problems they didn't learn from one so lets put a new name on it and the problem will go away ....I can't wait to get my hands on a Min5 to see the progress I have been promised....
I feel bad for all the public safety agencies that have fallen prey to Motorola's scare tactic of having to go Digital before the bugs have been worked out, but thats MA M's marketing, we sell it today & work out the bugs @ your expense after you find them for us ..
Those are the recent ones that come to mind
oh wait one more, Raise the cost of depoting equipment (no problem )
then tell me I can get even better service for only $25.00 per radio to bump it to the front of the line. I think we are all gettin the shaft
BTW where do you think all this DHS money is coming from ??? ME & You
but I know Motorola makes no mistakes (in your eyes)
how about that HT750 oh wait the PR860 will take its place (too many problems with the HT750)straight from the reps mouth@IWCE
how about the HT1250 & its display problems that the Depot can't fix???
or the units inherent power cycling problems??
or lets talk pagers shall we start at the Min3 or move to the Min 4 oh wait they both have the same problems they didn't learn from one so lets put a new name on it and the problem will go away ....I can't wait to get my hands on a Min5 to see the progress I have been promised....
I feel bad for all the public safety agencies that have fallen prey to Motorola's scare tactic of having to go Digital before the bugs have been worked out, but thats MA M's marketing, we sell it today & work out the bugs @ your expense after you find them for us ..
Those are the recent ones that come to mind
oh wait one more, Raise the cost of depoting equipment (no problem )
then tell me I can get even better service for only $25.00 per radio to bump it to the front of the line. I think we are all gettin the shaft
BTW where do you think all this DHS money is coming from ??? ME & You
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ASTROMODAT
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I agree that Icom and Kenwood have my blessing for the Family Radio Service, as well as the ultra low dog end of the 2-way market. These are table scraps where such radios have become literal commodities, such as the plastic Chinese radios. Motorola doesn't want these chicken bones, as they are interested in making The Big P25 $'s.
Motorola purposely leaves these small table scraps to Icom and Kenwood. You see, not unlike Microsoft leaving 3% of the computer business to Apple, they do this to avoid, or at least minimize, anti trust actions. Motorola could put Icom and Kenwood out of business over night if they just farted their way, but they have to keep 'em alive to avoid anti trust. Looks good to the undiscerning (read that Dumbass!) public. It's an acceptable price to pay, especially when you consider those lucrative Public Safety 2-way trunked systems. Heck, our areas 800 system cost the tax payers $70 million, and we're just a nat's ass of business to Motorola. Yup, the Big M is laughin' all the way to their gigantic bank, and they deserve it as they've figured out how to be successful. Those that complain about it are simply jealous of their gargantuous success, if they were truly honest about their feelings. It's called "Capitalism" and we all want to be millionaires, but most of us never will be. Just natural human behavior in its rawest form.
As far as who funds the DHS, I've got no problem there. Motorola stock is doing just fine, and it's fed by the taxpayers. OK by me!
I think this thread is getting a bit off topic...
Motorola purposely leaves these small table scraps to Icom and Kenwood. You see, not unlike Microsoft leaving 3% of the computer business to Apple, they do this to avoid, or at least minimize, anti trust actions. Motorola could put Icom and Kenwood out of business over night if they just farted their way, but they have to keep 'em alive to avoid anti trust. Looks good to the undiscerning (read that Dumbass!) public. It's an acceptable price to pay, especially when you consider those lucrative Public Safety 2-way trunked systems. Heck, our areas 800 system cost the tax payers $70 million, and we're just a nat's ass of business to Motorola. Yup, the Big M is laughin' all the way to their gigantic bank, and they deserve it as they've figured out how to be successful. Those that complain about it are simply jealous of their gargantuous success, if they were truly honest about their feelings. It's called "Capitalism" and we all want to be millionaires, but most of us never will be. Just natural human behavior in its rawest form.
As far as who funds the DHS, I've got no problem there. Motorola stock is doing just fine, and it's fed by the taxpayers. OK by me!
I think this thread is getting a bit off topic...
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CTAMontrose
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but look at what analog is/was replaced with:ASTROMODAT wrote: Look what happened to analog in the cell phone world!
D-Amps
TDMA
CDMA
GSM
iDen (ok technically not a cell phone, but i still belive it fits within the context of the topic)
take away the aging protocols (TDMA and D-AMPS) and you still have more than one (incompatable to boot) protocol (not counting iDen)
heck currently moto themselves are offering more than just P25, look at their new 900Mhz simplex spread spectrum digital HT that is geared towards the same role as the spirit and XTN radios.
have you seen Motorola's DTR550 & 650 and there sales figures (talk about flavor of the month ) 900MHZ 1 watt & no way to interface a repeater (I see a winner here) oh wait proprietary and talks to no one else ??????????and a list price of $385.00 and $400.00 respctively?( for a job site radio) I think this takes the best of the month cooking contest
and how much for a spirit or a XTN ????
and how much for a spirit or a XTN ????
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ASTROMODAT
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Digital cell phone modulation schemes, as you pointed out in your post, have evolved, just as their VOCODERS have. Even P25 is going from FDMA with IMBE to TDMA with AMBE +2 (we think). So what? They have tens of millions of phones that keep eating up more and more capacity, so they are changing even faster than Moore's Law. What's your point? P25 will aslo evolve, as I've demonstrated, but at a slower rate, as they have a much smaller base of subscriber sets as compared to cellular.
Last edited by ASTROMODAT on Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CTAMontrose
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ASTROMODAT
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And as you can see, Motorola plays in any market they choose to, at any particular time. They also eat their competitor's lunch any time they feel like it, at least until they have to take a breath to throw a few table scraps to their competitors so they don't get hit with anti trust action.
BTW, I'm all in favor of eliminating ALL anti trust laws. Lets get the Republicans in there, and load up the Supreme Court with ultra conservative Republicans. That way, Motorola and Microsoft can operate in an unfettered environment. Sit back and watch 'em eat their competitors alive, without having two hands tied behind their backs due to Kommie Demokrat anti gun and anti Capitalism anti trust laws.
HooYaah to George Bush The Great!
BTW, I'm all in favor of eliminating ALL anti trust laws. Lets get the Republicans in there, and load up the Supreme Court with ultra conservative Republicans. That way, Motorola and Microsoft can operate in an unfettered environment. Sit back and watch 'em eat their competitors alive, without having two hands tied behind their backs due to Kommie Demokrat anti gun and anti Capitalism anti trust laws.
HooYaah to George Bush The Great!
Phase II isn't poised to be adopted anytime soon, even if the standards were to be finalised tomorrow. The big users have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in P25 Phase 1 equipment. Changing to Phase II from Phase I is going to be EXACTLY like going from FM to P1, all over again.ASTROMODAT wrote:As P25 radios reap the benefits of TONs of DHS supported sales for the Public Safety Sector, we shall SOON see P25 becoming the norm even in the commercial world. Analog FM will fade away, as it is replaced by P25. Look what happened to analog in the cell phone world! And, P25 Phase II is poised to support 4 talk paths per 25 kHz channel.
Yeah, real smart.ASTROMODAT wrote:BTW, I'm all in favor of eliminating ALL anti trust laws. Lets get the Republicans in there, and load up the Supreme Court with ultra conservative Republicans. That way, Motorola and Microsoft can operate in an unfettered environment. Sit back and watch 'em eat their competitors alive, without having two hands tied behind their backs due to Kommie Demokrat anti gun and anti Capitalism anti trust laws.
Without competition to keep ahead of, companies such as those will have no desire or need to EVER innovative, at all. There was plenty of evidence of Microsoft being in that boat for quite a few years.
A situation like this years ago would see us still using lowband AM today.
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ASTROMODAT
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