Batboard

I'm interested in the Motorola Astro Saber 800 Trunking radio H04UCF9PW7AN.

Can this radio do Trunking Digital or Only Conventional Digital Systems?
I am somewhat confused on this. The term " DIGITAL " is often used broadly and this is a very specific concern.

Thanks,
Geo.

If appropriately flashed, the Astro Saber 800 can do IMBE voice modulation on trunking systems.

You'll need:
IMBE flash (first digit odd) to allow decoding of IMBE voice
Smartnet/Smartzone/Smartzone Omnilink bits in the flashcode (depending on the system type the radio will be used on)

If you're talking about a 9.6Kbps true Project 25 trunking system, you'll need to have more flashcode bits as well as recent enough firmware to support ASTRO 25 systems.

tvsjr wrote: If you're talking about a 9.6Kbps true Project 25 trunking system, you'll need to have more flashcode bits as well as recent enough firmware to support ASTRO 25 systems.

Specific firmware, not just "recent."

astro Saber host must be 6.xx something to do Astro25 9600 baud.

Other than that, 7.24 is current (I think)

Thanks for the reply.

For what it's worth the radio is H04UCF9PW7AN. Has 1 MEG memory; flash code is 4000040000008.

What digital is used in South Carolina seems to be more of the APCO 16 variety. I'm using the radio for monitoring only.

You information is much appreciated.

Geo

Stop there -

I'm using the radio for monitoring only.

I'm going to stop you now and say that you should NOT be using one of these radios to monitor a trunked system, unless you have a valid key and authorization from the system administrator to be on the system.

Your best off buying one of the scanners. They will monitor 9600, and the audio on them is actually pretty good.

I would look in to a good scanner. The amount you'll pay for the software that your looking to buy in the other thread and a few extra bucks will get you a pretty nice digital scanner.

-Alex

Alex,

Thanks for your advice. In warning against using the Saber Astro for receive only, do you mean that the radio would auto associate or otherwise make contact with or obstruct the TRS even though I would take every available step to avoid this ?

Would I not be able to defeat these functions which reach or lock on to the TRS ? I do not, of course, make reference to or seek any software or related services in my inquiry. I want to be very clear in avoiding even the appearance of inappropriate overtures.

Your suggestions are prudent, but I'd like to understand them better.

Many thanks,
Geo.

At this time, doing what you want to do is a VERY touchy subject.

These radios will only scan a max of 10 talkgroups.

You need a system "key" in order to program it. This key is generally only available from the system administrator.

Programming a trunked radio can be extrememly complicated

With all the features that most TRS's have these days, there is no real safe way to monitor them. Some exceptions.

Improper programming of the radio can cause major problems for the system or its users.

The only way to properly monitor the radio system without getting caught is to intenally disable (destroy) the transmitter.

This is some of the many reasons why a scanner is much more valuable (and cheaper) than a radio.

If you're still determined to use the radio as an RX only radio, one suggestion I can offer up is to unsolder the final PA amp and solder a 50 ohm resister in place of the PA. This is basically an internal dummy-load. I've never done it personally, but I know of a radio shop near me that does this with any trunking radio they program up as RX only (such as for the Media).

I got an MTS2000 with a busted PA for $10 for this purpose.

alex wrote:Stop there -

Your best off buying one of the scanners. They will monitor 9600, and the audio on them is actually pretty good.

I would look in to a good scanner. The amount you'll pay for the software that your looking to buy in the other thread and a few extra bucks will get you a pretty nice digital scanner.

-Alex

The newest Uniden BCD396T works awesum for 9600 P-25 systems. Audio is clear, clean, with decent volume. Sound quality is very close to a XTS P-25 audio - what more can you ask for.

Thanks for answering my questions.

It appears that the Astro Saber would not simply be a passive receiver, but would try to associate with that system. That's not for me. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but there is much more to this than I had imagined.

Fortunately, I was outbid on this radio and don't have to re-sell the thing.

I understand that one could actually lock out a legit user of a TRS if his radio associated even though he's not TRYING to transmit.

All of the scanners which included 800MHz bands were very insensitive and the audio was just plain weak, but I haven't seen one since the BC780XLD. Perhaps I'll take a look at the newer offerings.

This goes to show that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Thanks for saving me from making an unwise purchase.

Plus looking at that Flashcode as stated above means that radio is only digital "ready". Another big chunk of change to have it uplifted to monitor IMBE digital...

I second to BCD396T. I have one here and it is awesome. It even tracks the new 380 MHz digital motorola systems. It also comes with rechargeable batteries, a programming cable and the software. What else can you ask for?

Oh, and there is no way for it to transmit on a TRS or for it to be inhibited.

The necessary legitimate IMBE firmware for the ASTRO Saber is now almost $900. Contrary to many of the ads, very few eBay ASTRO radios actually come equipped with IMBE (particularly with LEGIT IMBE firmware), regardless of the supposed FLASHcode you get off the ad. In addition,

1) You must have a CPS license agreement in place with Motorola MOL,

2) You will need a Motorola salesperson to order the IMBE uplift firmware for you,

3) Unless you have a very good and long standing relationship with said Motorola salesperson (e.g., such as being a big, regular customer of Motorola’s), he will typically not be very enthused to order the IMBE firmware for you, as it is a single line item of minimal value, yet he will have to write up a complete STIC-1 and generate a full blown FO.

4) You will need the knowledge as to how to load this IMBE firmware into that old ASTRO Saber,

5) You will need to buy the CPS, which is now $410 (if you get the dual ASTRO mobile/ASTRO Saber version), plus you’ll need the knowledge as to how to load and use it,

6) You will need to buy a Motorola RIB and appropriate programming cable (figure around $500) in order to program the CPS and to load the uplift IMBE firmware.

Besides the initial $900 or so for the ASTRO Saber eBay used junker (and quite likely hacked and busted) radio, you have another $1,800 in necessary upgrades and accessories to attempt to make that ASTRO Saber play.

All told, you're out at least $2,700+ for an outmoded, long discontinued Motorola big huge radio (whose transmitter you must bust), and you have no idea if it will even work when you get it off eBay. Even if you are one of the lucky ones that might get an ASTRO radio off eBay whose hardware is actually working, there is the fact that its FLASHcode is likely of the illegal hacked variety, meaning you will essentially have a paper weight. Even if you send it into the Motorola Repair Depot for necessary repairs, that will set you back almost $400+ (not counting shipping), and if it’s a hacked ASTRO radio (very likely for used eBay ASTRO radios), you’ll find yourself in a lot of really scalding hot boiling water with Motorola, plus they may very well not return a hacked ASTRO to you when they discover that it’s loaded with hacked firmware. $3,100+ down the tubes!

Having said that, don’t forget that it's VERY ILLEGAL to attempt to eavesdrop on a trunked system(s) for which you are not an authorized user!

Why the heck is it even a question at all that the only way to go is to simply get yourself a nice P25 scanner, such as the Radio Shack PRO-96? Sorry, people seeing you in Starbucks will definitely NOT think you are a police officer, nor anyone exotic, such as an undercover FBI Agent, etc. (maybe a mall security guard on break, though!). But, you'll be nice and legal, you will save tons of $, and it will sound almost as good as that ASTRO Saber (albeit you will not have anywhere near the audio level).

There 'ya go. Take our free advice, and stay out of jail.

Good Luck.

Not just any Rib.. he needs a SmartRIB for the IMBE uplift...

tpg

Holy Mackrel !

When Alex warned that the radio might auto associate on it's own, that was enough of a wake up call for me.

So it is both interesting and quite daunting to read that long list of expenses and liabilities involved with bringing a typical Astro Saber up to speed. Also, attracting attention is the last thing I want. We have HT1000's ( regular old UHF ) in my business which look more like law enforcement radios where I think all those buttons and the readout make the Astro Saber look like a scanner.

I'd actually prefer a mobile for such monitoring, but found Astro mobile way out of the price ball park. I believe the mobile equivalent of the Radio Shack PRO-96 is the PRO-2096 if not mistaken. Does anyone think the PRO-2096 is worth looking into ?

Thanks,
Geo

ASTROMODAT wrote:Having said that, don’t forget that it's VERY ILLEGAL to attempt to eavesdrop on a trunked system(s) for which you are not an authorized user!

Excellent scare tactics, as usual Larry! If your above statement were true, anyone who owns a trunking scanner would be violating the law. Thank god you're not in law enforcement.

For what it's worth, I bought a VHF Astro Saber off of eBay recently. It has a legitimate IMBE flash, and is in perfect working condition.

Larry, I challenge you to buy a few ASTRO Sabers on eBay and see just how many of them are "illegally hacked, busted junk."

It's just not the way you say it is, Larry. A lot of the radios on eBay are legitimate radios with legitimate flashes in perfectly good working condition.

More heresy as usual. Don't let this guy steer you wrong, people. There ARE good, legitimate Astro radios on eBay, with legitimate firmware in perfectly good working condition.

For the record, I do back up Larry and everyone elses statement that if you want to listen to trunking, get a scanner. That's sage advice.

i concur with the comment above Re: ebay radios.

*if* the radio has tags (including the flash code)

one can be reasonably certain that you will get what you pay for.


caveat emptor


here's one of the drawbacks (sorta)

we all pee and moan about firmware revisions.... most of the time, they aren't even applicable.

firmware revs are issued to address VERY specific problems that are normally associated with just a few systems. i challenge anyone to go and look at any large PS trunk's field units and check the firmware revision - 99.99% of them aren't the most recent.

why?


cost.


methinks that *if* your radio is "in warranty" - you can obtain at least one refresh at no cost (larry, care to comment on that one?) - but if you are out of the warranty period - it's gonna be $xx (times) # units = $$$$$

and in most cases, it's just not required.



doug

d119, I think you know very well that what I meant was that it is very ILLEGAL to eavesdrop on a trunked system with a commercial radio trying to (automatically) affiliate, whilst the user is clearly unauthorized. I'm pretty darn sure that everyone here understands this is what I meant in my original post. Of course folks here know it is perfectly legal to use a Radio Shack scanner to listen to a trunked system.

I'm glad to hear you have a working eBay ASTRO. Did I say ALL eBay ASTROs are no good? No, what I said was that when you buy an ASTRO radio off eBay, you will typically (not always) run a risk that the radio will:

1) Be loaded with hacked firmware, 2) not include the ($900) IMBE (that is difficult to order, and must be oredered only through Motorola Sales, since it is not available via Motorola Parts), and/or 3) have one (or more) hardware problems.

I'm glad you took the risk, and so far your radio seems to be OK. But, I'm trying to caution wise buyers that there is a big risk (for the reasons cited) in rolling the dice with such ASTRO radios. Hopefully, the next guy going into an auction for an ASTRO radio will at least be forewarned. Like everyone here, of course I hope it all works out OK for anyt such buyers. No one likes to see someone buy a $1,200 paper weight.

Everyone has their own viewpoint, and this is what makes the world an interesting place to live! Just my 2 cents, and your mileage may vary.

Good luck.

Doug, my experience with our ASTRO radios that are under warranty is that they can receive one (or more) no charge firware refreshes, but only if we have sent them in for repair whilst under warranty, or for some other technical issue (which are both very rare exceptions to the rule). There is no free refresh during warranty just for the heck of it, as far as I know. Then again, I have never sought a free refresh for a working radio under warranty that was otherwise OK. I could be wrong, so maybe someone can weigh in that knows, and has actually done this.

d119 wrote:

ASTROMODAT wrote:Having said that, don’t forget that it's VERY ILLEGAL to attempt to eavesdrop on a trunked system(s) for which you are not an authorized user!

Excellent scare tactics, as usual Larry! If your above statement were true, anyone who owns a trunking scanner would be violating the law. Thank god you're not in law enforcement.

For what it's worth, I bought a VHF Astro Saber off of eBay recently. It has a legitimate IMBE flash, and is in perfect working condition.

Larry, I challenge you to buy a few ASTRO Sabers on eBay and see just how many of them are "illegally hacked, busted junk."

It's just not the way you say it is, Larry. A lot of the radios on eBay are legitimate radios with legitimate flashes in perfectly good working condition.

More heresy as usual. Don't let this guy steer you wrong, people. There ARE good, legitimate Astro radios on eBay, with legitimate firmware in perfectly good working condition.

For the record, I do back up Larry and everyone elses statement that if you want to listen to trunking, get a scanner. That's sage advice.

Ebay is a crapshoot with radios period. This doesn't apply to Astros but any electronic product. The key is knowing the seller, communicating with them and that usally filters out the surplus garbage and Nick radios. Of course it all depends on price. Like anything purchased sight unseen from an unknown source would you risk 1200 dollars? I wouldn't. It is no different than the tables in Vegas. If you are buying a radio for mission critical applications you'd be better off spending extra and buying from a reputable dealer/person (on or off ebay). Fact remains there IS ALOT of JUNK radios on Ebay, but it is always CAVEAT EMPTOR.

No brainer on the trunking radio. If you have a system key, CPS/RSS, etc and are programming radios you are in for more trouble than it is worth. If you access someones system you are a phucktard and deserve to get popped. End of story.

the Pro-96 does have super AF especially on IMBE and it is nice you can scan just about any system anywhere, no CPS, keys, legal worries (for the most part though some states have laws about the mobile use of scanners) and they are fraction of what a cop radio and all will cost you.

ASTROMODAT wrote: I'm glad to hear you have a working eBay ASTRO. Did I say ALL eBay ASTROs are no good? No, what I said was that when you buy an ASTRO radio off eBay, you will typically (not always) run a risk that the radio will:

1) Be loaded with hacked firmware, 2) not include the ($900) IMBE (that is difficult to order, and must be oredered only through Motorola Sales, since it is not available via Motorola Parts), and/or 3) have one (or more) hardware problems.

I'm glad you took the risk, and so far your radio seems to be OK. But, I'm trying to caution wise buyers that there is a big risk (for the reasons cited) in rolling the dice with such ASTRO radios. Hopefully, the next guy going into an auction for an ASTRO radio will at least be forewarned. Like everyone here, of course I hope it all works out OK for anyt such buyers. No one likes to see someone buy a $1,200 paper weight.

Everyone has their own viewpoint, and this is what makes the world an interesting place to live! Just my 2 cents, and your mileage may vary.

Good luck.

Larry,
I understand. I have just noticed in the past that you seem to be rather pessimistic (no offense) about eBay radios, ham radio operators, and a few other subjects. Like I've said before, most of us here aren't millionaires like yourself that can afford to purchase everything factory-new and under warranty. We have no choice but to look for the second hand items.

I just wanted to let the user base (particularly any new users) know that there are MANY success stories of ASTRO purchases off of eBay, and I am one of them.

Upon receipt of the VHF ASTRO saber I purchased on eBay, I opened up the unit and confirmed that there hadn't been any soldering on any of the boards, that all shields were in place, and all screws and fasteners were present.

I won't say I lucked out, because luck has nothing to do with it. I made a good purchase off eBay and got a good radio becuase I checked the following things with the seller before I made a bid:

1. Obviously the Host/DSP versions and flashcode, but more so than that:

2. Does the radio have factory tags, and do the Model and Serial numbers match what the service mode shows?

3. Does the FLASHCODE on the back tag match what the service mode shows? (This is critical in my opinion to determine if you've got a hacked radio).

Well since everything matched, in my humble opinion, it's a pretty sure bet that the radio hasn't been dicked with.

My $0.02. Like you said Larry, your mileage may vary, but people, ask the right questions, and eBay is fairly safe to buy an ASTRO radio from. If you dont know what questions to ask, PM me or someone else in-the-know, and we'll ask the questions for you. It's what we're here for.

Here's a short story to make a point:

Guy auctions a UHF Saber I. Doesn't state the bandsplit.
I ask him the bandsplit. He replies, "440-470 guaranteed!"
Radio arrives. Bandsplit is 403-433. He doesn't believe me;
asks me if I know how to read the radio, etc. I finally manage
to convince him he sent me a govt radio, and I send
him the "guaranteed" quote, which nails him to the wall, so
after two weeks of this crap he finally credits my PayPal
account. I get stuck for shipping both ways and lots of
aggravation and wasted time, and this jerk is still selling
Sabers on eBay and not giving the bandsplit.

Moral: Buy radios only from people you know and trust.
I was lucky. Most people get stuck for a lot more than I did.

Another route to consider: Given that a good ASTRO off of eBay that is genuinely loaded with legit firmware AND with IMBE will easily set you back $900 to $1,200+, why not consider a BRAND NEW XTS-1500? It lists at about $1,200 (including IMBE, and with a guaranteed factory warranty), with a street price that can be quite a bit less.

No, it does not currently support encryption, but then for Ham use and the like, that's illegal anyways. Someone previously complained that the XTS-1500 can only hold a limited number of system trunking keys, but I think most Ham users are not using it for trunking anyway. I doubt the typical user/purchaser of eBay ASTRO stuff is planning on the legitimate use of a professional trunked system (what company is going to have their employees bid on an eBay ASTRO for professional/serious trunking use?), so what's the issue with a limited number of system keys?

Just a thought, and my 2 cents.

ASTROMODAT wrote:Another route to consider: Given that a good ASTRO off of eBay that is genuinely loaded with legit firmware AND with IMBE will easily set you back $900 to $1,200+, why not consider a BRAND NEW XTS-1500? It lists at about $1,200 (including IMBE, and with a guaranteed factory warranty), with a street price that can be quite a bit less.

And an interesting thought at that, which prompted me to go check it out on M's webpage.

It's only 16 channels, and has no display/keypad option. No wonder it's so cheap.

In my UHF Astro Saber, I've got quite a bit more than 16 channels loaded into it, and I also make use of the Digital ID Display and Soft ID features of the radio - things that don't work without a display/keypad.

Would be nice if M would release a Model II or III version.

We may be seeing a more capable XTS-1500 in the future. For example, its counter part low end mobile ASTRO radio, the XTL-1500, has a bunch of features that are enabled with " "ADDITIONAL" FEATURES / CAPABILITIES SUPPORTED WITH SOFTWARE ENHANCEMENT PACKAGE G871:"

255 Channels
16 Trunked Systems
16 Trunked Personalities
20 Call Lists
20 Call List Numbers
20 Scan Lists
ADP
Data (Both Data 12 and Data 18 Packets)

Who knows if Motorola will decide to put these XTL-1500 mobile features into their XTS-1500 portable, but since these two radios are marketed like twins, I'd think this is a very likely near term development. As you can see, this is nowhere near as capable as an XTS-5000, but for the price, it makes for a pretty nice package, IMHO. No keypad, of course. If they do offer this package, it would obviously need a display, which it currently does not have.

Well, if Motorola's history is any teacher, I'd doubt it. The HT1250 comes standard with 128 channels, but it's "counterpart", the CDM1250 - only comes with 64.

I'd wager a guess that the XTS-1500 was never intended to be used as a full-feature digital radio. It would serve the purposes just fine for an agency who only needs a hand full of channels/talkgroups. If someone needs to have numerous systems and talkgroups, that's what the higher-tier radios are for.

ASTROMODAT wrote:Another route to consider: Given that a good ASTRO off of eBay that is genuinely loaded with legit firmware AND with IMBE will easily set you back $900 to $1,200+, why not consider a BRAND NEW XTS-1500? It lists at about $1,200 (including IMBE, and with a guaranteed factory warranty), with a street price that can be quite a bit less.

No, it does not currently support encryption, but then for Ham use and the like, that's illegal anyways. Someone previously complained that the XTS-1500 can only hold a limited number of system trunking keys, but I think most Ham users are not using it for trunking anyway. I doubt the typical user/purchaser of eBay ASTRO stuff is planning on the legitimate use of a professional trunked system (what company is going to have their employees bid on an eBay ASTRO for professional/serious trunking use?), so what's the issue with a limited number of system keys?

Just a thought, and my 2 cents.

The system key issue has more to do with the big push to go "P25" for "interoperability". It is kind of conflict to sell radios that limit public safety users to ONE single system. For example, the XTS1500 would be useless in atlanta, there are 11 different unique Motorola systems. How would such a radio be "interoperable" just because "it's P25". this is the kind of crap and misinformation that motosales persons spout. Fact is any trunking system hinders interoperability because it is closed network with limited resources. The price point is nice on the XTS1500, but it is a far cry from a Kenwood TK-5400 or 5210, same price range: the Kenwood has 512 modes, full encryption capable, trunking, the whole gamut of features. and IMO is a much better radio. US Forest service seems to think so, as does the TSA, they have been snapping them up like mad.


as far for someone wanting a trunking radio of any kind for "personal" use this is a bad idea UNLESS said user has written authorization to be on whatever system is in question. If they are a legit user, their system admin should be the one pointing them in the right direction as far as obtaining a subscriber unit from a legit dealer or source. Not too many sys admins around here get excited to program and provision Ebay radios on their systems, even if they do appear "legit" with all tags. They take on a liability anytime they program/provision a subscriber unit on their system so it is understandable that they only want radios with verifiable histories on their systems.

Adding a display and those features to an XTS1500 would essentially just give you an XTS2500, so it'd a pointless exercise.

bellersley wrote:I'd wager a guess that the XTS-1500 was never intended to be used as a full-feature digital radio. It would serve the purposes just fine for an agency who only needs a hand full of channels/talkgroups. If someone needs to have numerous systems and talkgroups, that's what the higher-tier radios are for.

Correct. This radio was designed for entry level stuff. P25 systems that have everything from the cop on the street to the street sweeper guy. Just beacuse a city purchases an XTS1500 doesn't mean that everyone is going to get it. Back in the day, we bought MT1000's for the patrol guys and Sabers for the supervisors for the encrpytion and paging. Same concept here.

You need more, you bump up to the next line. At least this way your not buying an XTS5000 and only need the features of a 1500.