Batboard

It's frustrating that I even have to ask this, but I'm left no choice since some people have their heads up their asses in an agency other than mine. We just have to find a way to deal. It's been a long day.

Lets say you have a Quantar and AstroTAC receviers ona single repeated channel. You run the Quantar and AstroTAC in mixed-mode so that analog units can communicate with dispatch. DIU with tone remote to the Orbacom console. An analog unit talks, I assume it is repeated in analog and it goes to dispatch. How does dispatch answer it in analog vs digital?

Lets say you have mobiles and portables that are not programmed in mixed-mode. They are locked in digital only. I assume this means they would have no idea anyone is having an analog conversation on the channel. No way for them to hear the analog units or the analog units to hear them. Correct?

Can someone give me an idea of how poor of a signal you need for the digital to give up vs how much further it could go in analog?

The way it was explanied to me by a NECS guy (and this is a little fuzzy) when I wanted to do this, it was a couple extra cards off the CEB to route the stuff. Sussex County NJ does this. Analog talks to analog and digital to digital. I believe they (Sussex SD) use two CCM's to do this. I don't think its a Analog/Digital button that they use. Of course, anything is possible.

We are in the middle of our upgrade using mixed mode and works pretty well so far. In the CCGE we have one CCM set for rx/tx analog, and the other rx/tx digital on the same channel. Don't know how they got that to work, but it does. They preprogrammed most of the stuff at the shop before installing it. The Capt said they were in/out under 8 hours.

The Astro field units can be programmed to RX mixed mode, but the user has to change the channel to the mode they want to transmit in. In practice, I think they just leave the channels strapped to whatever mode they are supose to be in (all analog, all digital and thown in the scan list).

I think that sorta makes sense above.

This is how my friends (users) are set-up for easy transition:
Mixed mode RX, analog TX, and have toggleable encryption.

Clear is Analog
Secure is Astro Secure

If someone talks analog, chit chat as normal.
If someone talks astro, press secure to talk astro while still being able to hear everything on the channel.

Food for thought.

tpg

Oooh. One more question which I'm sure nobody concidered. The frequency this will be on is the same as one in NYC somewhere. They also use Astro. On a good night, you can hear their repeater output loud and clear on our repeater output like you're next door on the ground with a portable. You can almost always hear it 180' up in the air where the receiver antennas are. It is constant and strong. Normally, the local units will squash right over it but there are occasions where it even overpowers us locally.

Is this going to make the Astro go whacky?

It should be easy to set up the console and repeater for selectable analog/digital dispatcher transmissions. The harder part will be getting the selection to be automatic, or to have any kind of indication to the dispatcher which mode is currently being received.

For dispatcher transmissions, the DIU RSS allows you to program the TRC Functionality Table. You could set it up for one tone-remote command for analog transmit (TRAN, CHAN1, ANLG), and a second tone-remote command for digital transmit (TRAN, CHAN1, CLR). As long as your console can send multiple tone remote commands to the DIU, this should work.

On receive, the DIU just sends the analog audio or digital decoded audio down the CONSOLE audio wires. If you happen to have a Centracom console that is compatible with the DIU's "Centracom Signalling Link", you might be able to provide the dispatcher with some kind of indication which mode is currently being received. If you don't have one of these consoles, I doubt there will be any way to do this. In that case, the dispatcher will just have to listen for the "digitized" voice sound, and reply in the proper mode...

I've never worked with a Centracom Console that supported the DIU's "Centracom Signalling Link", so I don't know much more about that part. Also, having the AstroTAC might complicate this whole situation, as well.

On Motorola portables, if they are programmed ASTRO-only, there will be no "busy light" indication while there is analog activity on the channel. If I remember right, if the user pressed the monitor button on an ASTRO-only channel, they would not be able to hear any analog audio.

If you want a "busy light" indication, but don't want the radio to hear any analog transmissions, you could program it as mixed-mode, but with a wrong RX PL/DPL. The user would be able to press the monitor button and hear the analog traffic, though (unless a monitor button wasn't programmed).

In my experience, the P25 digital transmissions can sound pretty good even when the analog ones are quite noisy. It does seem that "picket fencing" causes a little more trouble for P25 digital than analog, though.

nmfire10 wrote:Oooh. One more question which I'm sure nobody concidered. The frequency this will be on is the same as one in NYC somewhere. They also use Astro. On a good night, you can hear their repeater output loud and clear on our repeater output like you're next door on the ground with a portable. You can almost always hear it 180' up in the air where the receiver antennas are. It is constant and strong. Normally, the local units will squash right over it but there are occasions where it even overpowers us locally.

Is this going to make the Astro go whacky?

You may experiance a lose of some packets if there is more then 1 person on the frequency at the same time, which may leave the audio sounding "garbled".

515 wrote:It should be easy to set up the console and repeater for selectable analog/digital dispatcher transmissions. The harder part will be getting the selection to be automatic, or to have any kind of indication to the dispatcher which mode is currently being received.

For dispatcher transmissions, the DIU RSS allows you to program the TRC Functionality Table. You could set it up for one tone-remote command for analog transmit (TRAN, CHAN1, ANLG), and a second tone-remote command for digital transmit (TRAN, CHAN1, CLR). As long as your console can send multiple tone remote commands to the DIU, this should work.

On receive, the DIU just sends the analog audio or digital decoded audio down the CONSOLE audio wires. If you happen to have a Centracom console that is compatible with the DIU's "Centracom Signalling Link", you might be able to provide the dispatcher with some kind of indication which mode is currently being received. If you don't have one of these consoles, I doubt there will be any way to do this. In that case, the dispatcher will just have to listen for the "digitized" voice sound, and reply in the proper mode...

That's pretty much what I was figuring. I could easily picture tone commands for picking a TX mode, but can't think of how you'd indicate which is being received. As usual, they mind-meld is hard at work on this project....

515 wrote:I've never worked with a Centracom Console that supported the DIU's "Centracom Signalling Link", so I don't know much more about that part. Also, having the AstroTAC might complicate this whole situation, as well.

No centracom. I'm if there is something to complicate it, they are well on their way to making it worse.

515 wrote:On Motorola portables, if they are programmed ASTRO-only, there will be no "busy light" indication while there is analog activity on the channel. If I remember right, if the user pressed the monitor button on an ASTRO-only channel, they would not be able to hear any analog audio.

If you want a "busy light" indication, but don't want the radio to hear any analog transmissions, you could program it as mixed-mode, but with a wrong RX PL/DPL. The user would be able to press the monitor button and hear the analog traffic, though (unless a monitor button wasn't programmed).

So what happens if there is an analog transmission taking place and a user keys up their portable in astro? Will it inhibit TX or jsut mix and make a garbled mess as usual?

515 wrote:In my experience, the P25 digital transmissions can sound pretty good even when the analog ones are quite noisy. It does seem that "picket fencing" causes a little more trouble for P25 digital than analog, though.

VE9MP wrote:You may experiance a lose of some packets if there is more then 1 person on the frequency at the same time, which may leave the audio sounding "garbled".

It occured to me there are actually two other users on the same channel. There is an LTR system to the north as well and when it isn't broken, it is almost constanly transmitting. This should be interesting.

The Centracom signaling link to an ACIM in a Gold Elite console gives you the ability to see unit ID, respond to emergency button activation, do radio checks, etc.

There are also two hardware interface lines available from the DIU that can be used with any console, Centracom or otherwise. One of these is called "Receiver Unsquelch" and the other is called "Mode Indication" They are available on the DIU Option One connector (General Purpose I/O).

Mode Indication can be programmed in the DIU RSS for a variety of combinations such as Astro Clear / Analog.

These signals can be connected to aux inputs on a console and when properly configured, the console can thereby display an appropriate indicator to the dispatcher.

Can those indicators be sent on the tone remote circuit?

We have our DIU3000's programmed so that the dispatcher's response mode automatically tracks the mode of the incoming signal---if the incoming signal is ASTRO Clear, when she keys up, she (automatically) goes out in ASTRO Clear. If the incoming mode is ASTRO Encrypted, she (automatically) goes out ASTRO Encrypted. Same thing for analog FM, etc.

Alright. So it sounds like interfacing to the console via tone-remote shouldn't be a huge problem. Looks like they'll need to add TX Astro and TX Analog button, an RX Astro and RX Analog indicator, and i guess encryption indicators and buttons if they get encryption as well. They have DVP-XL now which blows. Not sure if they are springing for the secure equipment as well on the new stuff.

The moronic part seems to be not putting the portables and mobiles in mixed-mode. There is just no logic behind this concidering nobody else has astro and nobody else will be able to talk to them (like when an officer getting shot at and needs help from the next town over). Actually, this whole plan just defies logic. I could go on for hours about this, I'll spare you.

If they are running DVP-XL, then the Quantar needs to be configured for 12kb/s SECURENET transparent operation (which is now a legacy configuration, and no longer available except as an SP order), which then precludes mixed mode ops with ASTRO encryption. It's one or the other with the Quantar, but not both, when it comes to the old SECURENET encryption vs/ ASTRO encryption (e.g., ASTRO voice encrypted with DES-OFB or AES).

ASTROMODAT wrote:If they are running DVP-XL, then the Quantar needs to be configured for 12kb/s SECURENET transparent operation (which is now a legacy configuration, and no longer available except as an SP order), which then precludes mixed mode ops with ASTRO encryption. It's one or the other with the Quantar, but not both, when it comes to the old SECURENET encryption vs/ ASTRO encryption (e.g., ASTRO voice encrypted with DES-OFB or AES).

When did this happen? We just got our 2nd Quantar and installed it a couple of weeks ago. Nothing special that we are running. Mixed mode with DVP-XL.

Pj, the Quantar/Quantro PREVIOUSLY included both 9.6 kbps and 12 kbps transparency capabilities. It PREVIOUSLY could be configured to pass Analog and ASTRO Digital (ASTRO 9.6 kb mode), or Analog and 12 kbps SECURENET, or Analog alone at one time.

Quantar operations with transparent 12 kb/s SECURENET was discontinued some time ago. It is now an SP. I'm not sure if it requires a full blown Factory SP---it may be available as a Field Quotable SP. You'd have to check with your Motorola salesman. I have heard that this SP is even SOON to go away. SECURENET is all but dead.

There is extensive information on this in the Quantar Product Planner. If you don't have a copy of this, Pj, your salesman can oder one for you (it is not available from Parts).

So, if you just received a Quantar that is new (and it was recently ordered), it would have to be an SP.

Someone else on the Batboard had mentioned some time back as to the last firmware load that supported SECURENET on the Quantar. Ancient history now, though, as the current Quantar firmware no longer supports 12kb/s SECURENET transparent operation on the Quantar.

Their Quantars are probably 5+ years old. Maybe it is DES and not DVP, I don't really know for sure. Either way, they are being really stupid.

When was the cutover?

Doug stated that if you use verison X of the RSS, it no longer supports it.

This machine was placed into service about 3 weeks ago, and via model number AND paperwork, there is/was nothing SP related in its ordering, arrival or setup and operation.

Curious minds are afoot.

Pj, if you want to know the exact date, I'd suggest you ask your Motorola salesman about it.

As I said in my earlier post, you can read the details about it in the Quantar Systems Product Planner Guide.

As to the RSS not supporting DVP on the Quant, how do you intend to program it? With old RSS?

Also, if you look at the current price book, you will notice that SECURENET is no longer supported on the Quantar.

I don't know what else to tell you, Pj. The latest Motorola Quantar Systems Product Planner Guide says SECURENET transparent operation is discontinued/no longer available. And, while my old (2003 vintage) Motorola Price Book Sheets for the Quantar clearly PREVIOUSLY showed 12 kb/s SECURENET as a supported feature, now they don't.

Are you actually using 12 Kbit Securenet DVP-XL or in fact using Astro digital secure with the DVP algorythm?

Both. Until all the users (auxillary police and dog warden) get their astro's, you can run both.

Wait a minute! It has NEVER been possible to run BOTH DVP 12kb/s SECURENET AND 9kb/s ASTRO secure through a Quantar.

In the past (and I empahasize PAST), you could could choose to configure the Quantar to support EITHER 12 kb/s SECURENET, OR ASTRO 9.6kb/s secure, but NEVER BOTH.

Again, 12kb/s SECURENET transparent operation through a Quantar is no longer supported with the current Quantar firmware. This will only work if: 1) You have an SP Quantar, or 2) You have an old Quantar/Quantro.

Pj wrote:Both. Until all the users (auxillary police and dog warden) get their astro's, you can run both.

Here's what Motorola has to say (circa 2003) about running BOTH SECURENET AND ASTRO secure through a Quantar, and I quote:


ASTRO® CONVENTIONAL BASE STATIONS AND REPEATERS

"The Quantar station is not designed to handle 12 kb SECURENET® and 9.6 kb ASTRO® at the same time. The radio can only be configured to pass Analog and ASTRO® Digital (ASTRO® 9.6 kb mode), or Analog and 12 kbps SECURENET®, or Analog alone at one time."

I rest my case.

dude, we flip the concentric switch to secure, it works in analog like it has for the past 15 years. Switch it to PD2 (temp digital) it works too.

Don't know what to tell ya.

I believe Sussex County NJ has a similar setup from what I have been told. They run mixed mode and encyption has been noted, but I have not asked the locals in which mode.

You ought to tell Motorola about this, Pj. They'd send one of their crack engineers out to investigate this impossible phenomenon, or then again, I doubt it.

There are several members of the board who have been to my place of employment. I am pretty sure that what I am saying is legit. At least that's what my salesman told me to say.

For your entertainment value, here are pics of two of the channel assignements. Of couse, it could be anything but hey they are legit. First one says PD CH1 OLD with the secure option on.. (analog channel). 2nd is PD CH1 NEWDIG with the same icon. What you see on the side is part of the sales stuff. Pic 3 is the closeup for the quantar. Funny thing is, the same options came with the unit.

Interesting to note that there is no date shown along with the X598. X598 no longer shows up in the pricebook, as SECURENET is no longer supported in a standard Quantar.

Also, as noted by Doug, how do you plan on programming this DVP transparent Quantar? If you plan to use old RSS on a new Repeater, it won't load, unless the repeater is old, and then it will be fine with old vintage RSS.

We simply do not have the entire picture.

We are looking at over $100,000.00 worth of project here - what we are missing is the configuration plan - the engineering - the magic transition hook-up that some Motorola wizard created.

Also note there is a line item of a modem for the existing repeater. That could fit into the transition plan. It just can't be determined from these documents just how all the pieces play together.

One thing is clear - even if the Quantar firmware and the RSS support 12 KBps Securenet - you can't have that and P25 at the same time in the same repeater. You can have one today and the other tomorrow - next week - or next year [after reprogramming]

The station type [modulation capability] is a global setting - not a mode slaved setting - and there simply is no combination of analog + securenet + Astro CAI - never has been.

Here is a direct quote from the Quantar planner:

"Note that ASTRO equipped stations may be configured as ASTRO/analog, or SECURENET/analog, but not ASTRO and SECURENET simultaneously. ASTRO CAI equipped stations may be configured as ASTRO CAI/Analog or SECURENET/analog but not as ASTRO CAI/SECURENET or ASTRO CAI/ASTRO simultaneously."

I'll see if I can get my hands on it. Like I said, I wasn't there when they started the cutover. The engineering stuff I will try to get, I do have the other 15 pages of prices and equipment lists of what we bought along with some other stuff. Date is 1/2004.

Pj, I noticed that there was no date on your posted photo of the paperwork. The 1/2004 date you subsequently posted is now approaching 2 years old. You had previously posted that this Quantar was about “3 weeks old,” which is what started this entire argument in the first place!

As I said, X598 12 kb/s SECURENET Transparent is NO LONGER AVAILABLE on the Quantar, and this has been the case for quite some time now.

xmo's quote from the Quantar Planner's Guide jives with my previous quote. Besides the fact that for the past few years you could no longer order SECURENET (e.g., X598), it was NEVER the case EVER that a QUANTAR was able to support SECURENET AND ASTRO (clear or encrypted). Please try and listen to what xmo and I are trying to tell you.

Pj posted: "dude, we flip the concentric switch to secure, it works in analog like it has for the past 15 years. Switch it to PD2 (temp digital) it works too."

This doesn't make sense, unless perhaps your system involves a complex arrangement of MULTIPLE Quantars, with one machine handling SECURENET, and then an entirely different and separate Quantar is somehow cut-in "automatically" whenever ASTRO transmissions take place. I suppose something like this could be possible. Maybe you could check into this, Pj. It would be interesting to find out what exactly you've got lashed up there. Anything is possible if your Engineers threw enough horsepower at it. The more I think about it, you may have a pretty cool and complex system there.

To follow-up/reinforce xmo's quote, here's another quote from the Motorola Quantar Planners Guide back in the day (I believe it’s 2003), when you could still order the old 12 kb/s DVP-XL SECURENET on the Quantar:

"ASTRO CONVENTIONAL AND SECURE AND CONVENTIONAL TRANSPARENT CONVENTIONAL BASE STATIONS AND REPEATERS

The ASTRO QUANTAR/QUANTRO includes both 9.6 kbps and 12 kbps transparency capabilities. The station is not designed to handle 12 kb SECURENET and 9.6 kb ASTRO at the sametime. The radio can only be configured to pass Analog and ASTRO Digital (ASTRO 9.6 kb mode), or Analog and 12 kbps SECURENET, or Analog alone at one time."

P.S. That ASTRO Saber in your pictures looks beautiful! Is that your personal radio, Pj? Looks too darn nice to be a field radio!

Government doesn't work as fast as the high flying private sector. This was a three year project since the town fathers would rather pay more over three years and less in just one purchase. Quotation 1/04, ordered 4/04, engineering and modifications thru the summer, equipment started to arrive 9/04, remodel thru the winter, equipment preconfigured at MSS in the spring, more site work done early summer, placed online for the most part this month.

The was also done in conjuction with some other stuff that M was rolling out. In fact, we were the first to get the new XTL and tested same for a bit. Tried to beta some of the new heads at the time, but those went to DC area departments.

Kinda interesting that I had preproduction documentation and photos of the new heads back in early 2004, wouldn't you say?

Pj, I'm not sure how you were able to place an order for a SECURENET capable Qunatar as recently as the 4/2004 order date you cite in your previous post. If you go to MOL, and click on "Notification of Support Cancelation (28 September 2005)" you will find that Quantar SECURENET was CANCELED as of 12/31/2001. Even the Maintenance Depot support of said Qunatar SECURENET will die in 3 years.

Bottom line: Qunatar SECURENET was CANCELED as of almost 4 years ago, and has been gone forever (short of a used machine off of eBay). Even an SP ain't gunna get you there.

Hope this helps to finally put this subject to bed.

i dont think hes posting about what he wants to order, rather what they acutally got.

crazy stuff afoot