Batboard

I am hoping that someone on the board can help me with this....

I was just a part of a discussion where I was just informed that if a member of a fire department is not issued a radio by the department and then chooses to go out and purchase their own radio to use for fire department business only (such as communicating while on a fireground or for directing traffic at a vehicle wreck that their fire department is on scene at) then that person is in direct violation of the fire department's FCC licensing and can and will have their radio equipment confiscated by the FCC for the violation.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth to this. If this is a true statement can you direct me to the FCC law where this is specifically stated. If the comment is false can you direct me to the section of the law where it is explained the allowances for a person owning and operating thier own radio equipment for a public safety agency.

I personally think that its a false statement and that this is the officers of the fire department way of controlling the members who have and can operate a radio. Meaning only the officers have permission to use radios because they are the only people who have department issued radio equipment. Which in my opinion reaches out to a safety issue standpoint as well as the negligence to teach an education course for operating a radio to all it members to eliminate the possibility of a problem before it begins.

All information is greatly appreciated..

Thanks in advance

It basically comes to this:

1) The radio owner needs to be licensed to the operating frequency and the radio needs to be type accepted.

2) If they are not licensed on their own (which I'm sure they probably cannot be), they may operate under a department license with permission from the license holder as long as all equipment is legal and their radio doesn't exceed the number of units on the department license.

3) If they are not licensed nor do they have permission from the license holder, they are illegal.

Also, department rules can exceed beyond FCC rules. Although it may be legal per FCC, if the department has rules to follow about this and they break them, they can be subject to whatever the department punishment is. If the department rules state that you may not use a yellow radio and your radio is yellow, expect suspension or whatever. If they say you can't use your own radio on their license, you can't. As for the FCC confiscating a radio, don't expect it to happen.


If an officer or supervisor says don't do it.....don't do it. If they are the license holder, obviously, the person that purchased their own radio cannot get licensed for this same frequency, so they have to operate under a department license. Without department (license holder) permission, they are breaking FCC rules AND department rules.

You have to follow the rules of your department! Like our department, it sounds like a typical VFD full of line officers with power hard-ons and a false sense of authority since they are meek nothings in their everyday life outside of the department and try to justify their existence by telling somebody what to do...as if they will.

The short version:

The department holds the license. The department can allow who ever they want to operate on their licensed frequency as long as the radio in use complies with the license (power, erp, etc). The person/agency that purchased the said radio has absolutely nothing to do with the FCC and who can use the frequency.

So, if the chief says you can use it, then you are within the law to use it. If the chief says you can't use it, then doing so would violate the FCC's regulations.

On the department I orginally was on half a dozen guys went out and got their own radios. Nothing was ever said.

The department I am currently on, the department/village is on the license as the holder. I have noticed that there is a number of equipment on each of the frequencies listed on the license itself. That just dawned on me. But recently the department just bought some more portables for our medics. I now wonder if they are in violation themselves.

I just cant see why they would even want to send people inside of a structure fire without the means of being able to communicate to the outside. That was the whole reason that prompted a few guys to go out and get our own portables in the first place. Now we are told that we cant use them at all. What a crock.....

The licensee can apply to increase the number of radios. They just need to document why they need a specific number. Having one per member would not be unreasonable, but it isn't automatic. They need to get it done.

That's the limiting factor here.

And I'm sure some depts don't want unrestricted access to their frequencies. Some have probably learned the hard way.

svfd1243 wrote:On the department I orginally was on half a dozen guys went out and got their own radios. Nothing was ever said.

The department I am currently on, the department/village is on the license as the holder. I have noticed that there is a number of equipment on each of the frequencies listed on the license itself. That just dawned on me. But recently the department just bought some more portables for our medics. I now wonder if they are in violation themselves.

I just cant see why they would even want to send people inside of a structure fire without the means of being able to communicate to the outside. That was the whole reason that prompted a few guys to go out and get our own portables in the first place. Now we are told that we cant use them at all. What a crock.....

As long as the department is operating within their power/freq/etc, the FCC isn't going to really care how many radios are operating under the license...they have better things to do. They know it too. As a for instance, our county revamped our channel plan. With it came lots o funding for new radios...and many more mobiles and portables are now in service. We are licensed for 100 radios. Now, 40 fire departments + 3 chief's per department + truck radios + portable radios and you get the idea.

License modifications such as these usually cost nada and is pretty simple.

Foregoing is largely correct, except for the proposition that "the licensee can authorize anyone they want on it." There is a specific section of Part 90 regarding the use of public safety frequencies in non-licensee-owned equipment, which I do not have to hand, and this should answer your questions.

RKG wrote:Foregoing is largely correct, except for the proposition that "the licensee can authorize anyone they want on it." There is a specific section of Part 90 regarding the use of public safety frequencies in non-licensee-owned equipment, which I do not have to hand, and this should answer your questions.

Subpart N_Operating Requirements



Sec. 90.421 Operation of mobile station units not under the control of

the licensee.



Mobile stations, as defined in Sec. 90.7, include vehicular-mounted

and hand-held units. Such units may be operated by persons other than

the licensee, as provided for below, when necessary for the licensee to

meet its requirements in connection with the activities for which it is

licensed. If the number of such units, together with units operated by

the licensee, exceeds the number of mobile units authorized to the

licensee, license modification is required. The licensee is responsible

for taking necessary precautions to prevent unauthorized operation of

such units not under its control.

(a) Public Safety Pool. (1) Mobile units licensed in the Public

Safety Pool may be installed in any vehicle which in an emergency would

require cooperation and coordination with the licensee, and in any

vehicle used in the performance, under contract, of official activities

of the licensee. This provision does not permit the installation of

radio units in non-emergency vehicles that are not performing

governmental functions under contract but with which the licensee might

wish to communicate.

That's it; thanks.

We get State Troopers who hate thier issued radios buying thier own personal radios.We call the zone Sgt the Trooper is assigned to and get permissions on letterhead.A few were volunteers with EMS or FD agencies and had thier respective stuff programmed into them.We get letters of permission from thier Departments also.To cover our butts.
I have seen complaint letters go to State folks who operated on a local or county channel without permission.
A local County reverted to assigning Unit IDs to everything from Highway to Fire to EMS in thier county due to ex members having personal radios programmed with YP stuff and transmitting on the county channels.Everything now comes across with Unit ID and ANI.

It is also good to update and maintain your FCC license to make sure it reflects your current number of units and pagers on the license.
This can be done at FCC ULS site online.
Wayne

My Fire department doesn't really say anything about member's having personal radios. It is a safety issue. We do have a cadet squad (who have radio's, to listen to what is needed). They were just made to have their radios RX only. There is not much you can do, if your not the only one feelings this way, get everybody involved and sit down with the line officers and has this out. Make sure you have all of your ducks in a row first. If you need Id's, you need ID's.

wkr518 wrote:It is also good to update and maintain your FCC license to make sure it reflects your current number of units and pagers on the license.
This can be done at FCC ULS site online.
Wayne

Remember that modification of the number of mobiles is a major modification and requires re-coordination........which costs money. I don't do this until we add 10% more units to a license.

I noticed this was an old question, however.....

Assuming the FD is licensed for the frequency in question AND has a sufficient number of mobiles listed on their license, there are certain instances where it is permissable for a privately owned radio to operate under that license. (and be in compliance with the FCC's regulations)

The indivdual operating the radio must be an "employee" of the agency (volunteer firefighters, reserve police officers etc. are considered "employees" for this purpose).

The agency must maintain information about the transmitter in their station records (i.e. model, serial number)

Only "eligible" communications are permissible. (i.e. if the licensee is a FD and their eligibility statement on the original applications is for "fire communications" then only that type of communications is allowed.)

In some circumstances (esp. related to law-enforcement comms) the communications made on the transmitter must be directed to/from the agency itself. (while an agency-owned radio might be used to intercommunicate with another agency on the same frequency, you aren't allways permitted to do that with non agency-owned equipment).

The privately owned radio must be type certificated for the service (no converted ham radios!!!)

There should be a written policy that allows the use of privately owned radio equipment and failing that there must be a written agreement between the agency (license holder) and the owner of the equipment.

More information about privately owned radio transmitters used under public safety licensed can be found in 47USC, 90.421.