Batboard

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:17 pm**

A Saber IR with a Fascinator tag is currently for sale on flea-bay...

I was under the impression radios equiped to take the Fascinator encryption module were to be destroyed and not resold...

Am I wrong on this?

Or, maybe someone with gigantic stones stole a radio and is now stupid enough to try to sell it online.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:20 pm**

there have been a few that have shown up over time, usualy they are fully wiped and the encryption module is removed so it is pretty much just a regular saber with nifty tags

Conundrum

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:39 pm**

Yeah, I didn't think the encryption module was still in there...

I hadn't seen one of those before.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:42 pm**

Besides that...Fascinator is now an OLD algorithm and is most certainly no longer used or valid for classified communications today.

As for Ebay...I'll put money on the radio being 'almost' DOA and aside from the tags, there is not a CCI device installed in the radio, you can bet Club Fed removed everything even remotely associated with that module.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:04 pm**

Here is a link that pretty much sums up all about the fascinatior modules
http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usmc/2231_2.htm

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:08 pm**

We received some surplus radios that still had the modules in them. I called the 800 number on the tag and told them that I had the removed modules. They said someone would pick them up and that we could not ship them.

That was over a year ago and the modules are still sitting in the safe.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:00 pm**

I bought some Saber I's of fleabay a little while ago, both had those Fascinator tags on them, but only one had a module it in. I pulled the module and smashed it with a hammer and tossed it in the trash, why not, there is no way to make use of it anyway, so there is no reason to keep it.

There has been more and more of them showing up on eBay lately, i'm assuming they are no longer using them otherwise they would have never been released in the first place.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:26 pm**

Many of the Sabers we have aquired have had Fascinator tags. Sometimes the module is just gone but most of the time it has been replaced with a des module.

If it is a real Fascinator module RSS tells you. It also has a serial number.

The person I spoke to an the phone said that we could not distroy or ship back the modules. Since Fire aquired the radios and we have no secure storage, I gave them to Fire to deal with. They are still sitting in the safe at our ECOC.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:14 pm**

Just a friendly word of advice: If you've got CCI in your hands, you want to return it to the appropriate federal agency, soon.

Destroying them is a bad idea - the serial numbers are tracked from creation to ultimate destruction. The gov won't be pleased if they discover you had the modules, but destroyed them using an unapproved method.

Keeping them is also a bad idea. It's a federal crime to possess CCI.

Glenn - I'd be calling them and demanding that they come pick the modules up. Not something you want to play around with.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:46 pm**

I would consider a hammer a very effective method of destruction personally.

Besides that, Fascinator is OLD, I seriously doubt they care that much about outdated 'technology' to track down and acquire every known module.

If they were that 'secret', I doubt they would have even allowed a label to get out of the building, let alone probably hundreds if not thousands of these critters.

If I had one or more, they would be 'curios' to be displayed in a cabinet, nothing more.

On a personal note, we are the government, but I doubt mere posession can be considered a 'federal crime', it's taxpayer property actually.

I want one or more now...just to announce I have them....(feel good measure) *laughing*

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:49 am**

tvsjr wrote:Destroying them is a bad idea - the serial numbers are tracked from creation to ultimate destruction.

I wonder what their records show for the modules now, though. Do they think they were destroyed but they actually went missing? Do they show up as stolen? I'm sure this isn't an 'open' database, I'm just wondering aloud.

If I had one or more, they would be 'curios' to be displayed in a cabinet, nothing more.

Personally, I think it'd be nifty to set up a pair and try 'em on the air. (Will any of the 'available' keyloaders work with them?)

On a personal note, we are the government, but I doubt mere posession can be considered a 'federal crime', it's taxpayer property actually.

I think they still view these as 'munitions,' so I doubt the government agrees with you here. Try telling the government that the nuke in your backyard is taxpayer property

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:36 am**

Nope, they require their own keyfill device... which is destroyed outright (no pulling a module and selling the rest.)

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:48 am**

fogster wrote:Personally, I think it'd be nifty to set up a pair and try 'em on the air. (Will any of the 'available' keyloaders work with them?)

You have to have the old guy from Dayton fill them with his govt. KVL3000's that luckily didn't get taken in the US Marshall's raid. I think he had it in his black suitcase that he wouldn't open for anybody since he was being watched at the time.

hah

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:15 am**

the fascinator hardware is a CCI (controlled cryptographic item)

outdated, old, superceeded, doesn't matter.

the way this is SUPPOSED to work...

- authorized agencies have a COMSEC account (think NSA here)

- equipment is "ordered" and "assigned" to a users COMSEC acct - and is accountable to the CMS Custodian.

- if equipment is lost/destroyed/stolen - there are varying methods of reporting the loss, usually message traffic

regardless - i would tend to agree that possession of the module probably wouldn't get you tossed in jail --- it's one of those things where they COULD - not saying they actually WILL.

d

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:58 am**

redbeard wrote:
fogster wrote:Personally, I think it'd be nifty to set up a pair and try 'em on the air. (Will any of the 'available' keyloaders work with them?)
You have to have the old guy from Dayton fill them with his govt. KVL3000's that luckily didn't get taken in the US Marshall's raid. I think he had it in his black suitcase that he wouldn't open for anybody since he was being watched at the time.

hah

If he had anything that would load them, it wasn't a "govt. KVL3000".

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SABER TM
SECURENET TM Handie-Talkie® Portable Radios
NTN1089A Fascinator TM Encryption Module Retrofit Kit
Supplement to Service Manuals
68P81045C70, 68P81045C75, and 68P81063C30

1. DESCRIPTION
SABER TM SECURENETTM Handie-Talkie® portable
radios include the ability to receive and transmit
secure-coded voice transmissions. Option H796 modifies
a standard SECURENET radio to operate with a
Fascinator TM encryption module. The NTN1089A
Retrofit Kit supplies the NTN7298 Fascinator encryption
module and the information needed to field modify
a SABER SECURENET radio to include the H796 option.

NOTE
To be retrofittable, the radio to be modified must be
equipped with a coded/clear selector switch.

This manual provides the information required to
field modify SABER SECURENET radios to operate
with either the Fascinator module or the existing
SECURENET module. The manual also includes the
Radio Service Software (RSS) procedure for reprogramming
the radio for Fascinator operation.

Fascinator encryption provides two-key radio
operation; a radio channel can be strapped to either
key location, but not both, using the RSS. Before a
key can be used, it must first be downloaded into the
radio, using keyloading equipment.

2. RADIO OPERATION
A SABER radio with the Fascinator encryption
module operates the same as with other encryption
modules, as described in the radio's operating instructions.
However, the procedure for Fascinator keyloading
does differ from the standard SABER keyloading
procedure.

• Fascinator Keyloading

With Fascinator encryption, keyloading requires
several pieces of equipment: the T5164x ("x" refers to
the product version; that is, A, B, etc.) Security
Interface Box (SIB), the TKN8516x Keyloader cable,
and either the KOI-18 or the KYK-13 Government Fill
Device (GFD). Information for connecting this equipment
to the radio is included in Motorola Instruction
Manual 68P81078E10 (provided with the SIB). 

Connect the GFD, SIB, and cable together, but do not connect
the cable to the radio. Load the key(s) as follows:

(a) Turn the radio on.
(b) Select the channel onto which the first key is to be
loaded.
(c) Attach the keyloader cable to the radio's universal
connector.
(d) Load the first key.
(e) Remove the keyloader cable from the radio.
(f) Select the channel onto which the second key is to
be loaded.
(g) Attach the keyloader cable to the radio's universal
connector.
(h) Load the second key.
(i) Remove the keyloader cable from the radio.

3. FASCINATOR ENCRYPTION MODULE
INSTALLATION

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:31 am**

Very informative John. I was just being a sh1t anyways heh.

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:03 am**

k4wtf wrote:

Code: Select all

(c) Attach the keyloader cable to the radio's universal
connector.
(d) Load the first key.
(e) Remove the keyloader cable from the radio.
(f) Select the channel onto which the second key is to
be loaded.
(g) Attach the keyloader cable to the radio's universal
connector.
(h) Load the second key.
(i) Remove the keyloader cable from the radio.

This sounds like it would be a major pain ITA if you had to program more than a few channels?

Were the US Marshalls actually at Dayton? This is far from the first I've heard about them.

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:14 pm**

fogster wrote:Were the US Marshalls actually at Dayton? This is far from the first I've heard about them.

Not that I heard. This guy was some kind of govt. whacker and liked to throw around agency names like he knew what he was talking about. He was under a small tent across from the large food tent and had a bunch of non-IMBE AS gear with super old host/DSP. He claimed to have some nice near mint AS3 Fascinator equipped radios in his case but when I told him to show me the service menu he clammed up and refused. I call BS on the whole thing.

He did however have a box full of accy. cables with all pins populated and some sort of mil-spec connector on the end. Very likely surplus TKN8516 keyloader cables.

Posted: **Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:44 pm**

Pretty interesting, but in the USMC document they refer to MCX-100 radios. They have been out of circulation for over 10 years. So I would suspect that it is OLD. Even saw a few janitors at the Air Force Museum with Facinator System Sabers, 10 years ago. BTW if I am not mistaken, they require a KYK-13 keyfill device, which receives its keys from a tape drive at a secure location, not a KVL. The KYK-13 are same ones we used on our SINGARS radios. Which are now very OLD and made in China, after a real F up by some one.

Posted: **Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:41 pm**

I heard SINCGARS(Single Channel Ground Airborne Radio System) was made in both Israel and the U.S, but never in China, and certainly NOT over 10 years ago.

I want to see a 'Made in China' tag on a military comm set from over 10 years ago.

Geez, and it was only in 1981 that I was in West Germany and communism was less than 50 miles to my east.

Watch for the 1K zone.....

No doubt the Chinese have had copies of Fascinator devices in their posession for years.

Posted: **Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:14 am**

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:Pretty interesting, but in the USMC document they refer to MCX-100 radios. They have been out of circulation for over 10 years. So I would suspect that it is OLD. Even saw a few janitors at the Air Force Museum with Facinator System Sabers, 10 years ago. BTW if I am not mistaken, they require a KYK-13 keyfill device, which receives its keys from a tape drive at a secure location, not a KVL. The KYK-13 are same ones we used on our SINGARS radios. Which are now very OLD and made in China, after a real F up by some one.

Well, a KYK-13 will not accept a fill from a KVL, but you could generate your own key with a KYX-15 once upon a time. I used KYK-13's and KYX-15's with KY-57's, even after Walker sold them out.

Posted: **Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:49 am**

AEC wrote:I heard SINCGARS(Single Channel Ground Airborne Radio System) was made in both Israel and the U.S, but never in China, and certainly NOT over 10 years ago.

I want to see a 'Made in China' tag on a military comm set from over 10 years ago.

Geez, and it was only in 1981 that I was in West Germany and communism was less than 50 miles to my east.

Watch for the 1K zone.....

No doubt the Chinese have had copies of Fascinator devices in their posession for years.

LOL.... Brings back memorys.... Try living next to the wall..... spent 3 months ( felt like 3 years) in Sonnagen Germany... a short walk to the wall...... soliders in towers with guns pointed.... road stops dead half way across a small bridge over a creek..... rail line cut off and rusted..... very interesting back then... 1986.....

DFC2