Batboard

Hi
I just bought a Spectra Astro Digital 800Mhz.I have been programming regular Spectra's for over 15 years,but this the first Astro i have bought.The systems around my area have a few digital channels and use P25 that i want to monitor.The radio has been set up for RX only.I have programmed the T/G's i want to listen to,but being new to the Astro,it's a whole new learning curve.The TG's i have programmed in ,when i monitor the TG's it shows they are active,but i can not receive them.I'm sure with all the Astro options,i am missing some of them.
I was hoping that there may be someone out there that can help me.
I know I'm asking a lot,but i know some one must have the same interest and be much more knowledgeable with the Astro then myself.
Is it possible to send some one the C\P i have in the radio now and i would greatly appreciate it if they could look at it and see what mistakes i have made in order to monitor the Digital T/G's.
Thanks in advance for any help in this .
It would mean alot to me.
Max

In order for anyone to help you out, You'll have to note the flashcode, the DSP and Host versions, not to mention the system type, if it's astro25 or SmartZone, whatever.


-Josh

Whats your NAC set to?

Hi
The spectra I have has the correct flash code for Apco25.The system I want to monitor does Digital apco25.
I have programmed the radio to monitor the Digital T/G's.When I am monitoring the T/G's,it show the radio is receiving the signal,but I does not seem to be decoding it.With my lack of knowledge,and the difference between a regular Spectra and an Astro,there are many more options.
I would like to offer anyone that will have a look at my C/P to see if I have all the correct Astro option correct and I am willing to pay with Paypal to any one that is willing to help me.
I know its a lot to ask,and the time it may take for someone to look at the C/P,that's why I willing to pay for your time.
Max

How much are you willing to pay in legal fees for openly programming a illegal radio onto a public safety 800 TRS system?

Couple of things come to mind from reading posts from people in your situation in the past...

Radio is hacked, and was most likely an inhibit command was sent but didn't properly work.

You have your digital talkgroups set as analog

Your programmed as smartzone, and you do not have a valid radio ID

Talkgroups are encypted

As VX alluded to, if you have this radio programmed up unauthorized on this system, you could be looking at a criminal complaint if caught. A previous member of the board up your way went thru quite a bit of legal anal probing a couple of years ago in a similar situation. Its not pretty. There is no "safe" way to monitor a trunked system on an Astro Spectra unless you pull the PA deck off so its cannot transmit.

Thank you for input.
I would like to set the record right.
1-I bought the radio from ebay and it is not HOT
2-The PA has been fixed ,so the radio can not TX
I have been programming Motorola's for 20 years and us them for my own personal use.
I just bought a Astro and was looking for help from members from this board,but,it seems i am Judged guilty and i feel i have to prove myself innocent.
Thanks
Max

Programming radios on a TRS in Canada is not a BFD like it is in the states.

PJ, if your referring to S, his mess was based on something completey different.

Another thing to look at is if the radio system is simulcast, and you have the modulation set as "WIDE" under the field which also could be set as CPQSK or C4FM, sometimes under "WIDE" the radio will exhibit that type of behaviour.. ie talkgroups pop up but no audio. Of course, you would have had to do that in programming as the default is C4FM

-Josh

Max wrote:2-The PA has been fixed ,so the radio can not TX

Just FYI, simply disconnecting the PA input from the VCO does not completely disable transmit. The VCO itself kicks out (I think) between 50 and 200 milliwatts, and it does radiate outside the radio. Don't believe me? Program up a conventional channel and try it. On the plus side, the Astro Spectras use the exact same VCO board as their analog counterparts, so you can hack up the one in the radio all you want and just replace it with a pull from a cheapo analog radio if you want to resell later on.

You could always borrow a radio programmed into the system and read it.

Max,

You are aware that there are people that monitor this board that are associated with the Toronto, Peel & York Region Public Safety Systems right?

So now that you have stated that you want to program an 800Meg A/S on their systems, I'm sure they will be paying close attention to your posts.

Don't forget that if you put an duplicate ID on the system that is already in use, you are endangering the lives of whomever is using that radio.

I'm not bitching you out here, I just want to make sure that you're aware of what can happen to you.


*BTW, VE9MP,

"Programming radios on a TRS in Canada is not a BFD like it is in the states."


Says who??

I'm pretty sure that Industry Canada doesn't look lightly upon people hacking into Public Safety Systems, not to mention the agencies being hacked.

I'm sure everyone here knows the risks of doing this, and are aware of the consquences...if people wanted to use scanners, I'm sure they would.

Contrary to popular belief, listening to a trunk system is not terrorism as many here would like you to believe, theres a select group of people on here that want to make everyone think it is...

Please explain how your endangering a persons life by using an a duplicate ID if the radio never affiliates to the system?

Industry Canada barely has the resources to go after the people tranmitting false May Day's on Marine Ch. 16 from moving vehicles, let alone bothering people about trunking radios. And as for the agencies being "hacked", they couldn't care less, they have said it.

If you want to play Repeater Police, you might as well go elsewhere.

Also, for the record, Max's problem is that he is trying to monitor a 9600 baud Astro25 system with a 3600 baud radio.

Okay well just some background information on the system Max wishes to monitor. It's an 800MHz 4 site SmartZone 3600 baud system running mostly analog but there are some digital talkgroups present.

First of all, to squelch the "buy a scanner" crowd - I challange anyone to show me one single case where someone has had any legal trouble by monitoring a trunked system with a Motorola radio. I know there are lots of cases about selling the radios, programming for profit, etc... but I mean an individual programming themselves for personal use. I think you might have a hard time with that one.

I've personally had my 800MHz portable checked out by the telecom guys that run the system Max is talking about. It was a result of a very curious Police Officer. Guess what they told me? They don't care. The media in Toronto all run around with MTX8000 portables, as do most tow trucks. They know this, and it's never become an issue.

At any rate. There are a few things you need to do to make sure your spectra doesn't talk on the system. The first thing you need to do is program the coverage type as Smartnet, NOT Smartzone. This will allow you to set Affiliate on PTT instead of Automatic. Secondly, you need to set the Ignition Switch to TX Inhibit, and don't connect the ignition switch to B+. This will inhibit *ALL* transmissions from the radio. Some on here will try and tell you that the radio will still respond to affiliation requests and the like. This is NOT true and will not happen if the TX Inhibit line is set properly. Now you will probably also have people tell you that your radio has to affiliate in order to receive anything. This is also not true. It might be true on some radios, but on the XTS3000, Astro Saber and Astro Spectra, it is not. There is an option called Imbalanced Coverage Indicator that exists to tell you when you are hearing a system, but unable to transmit (affiliate) to it - this alone proves that the radio does not need to affiliate in order to receive.

This is the safest way to make your radio not transmit. As long as you setup the ignition sense switch properly, there is no way your radio will ever transmit, regardless of what commands are sent to it by the trunking controller. Your radio is still able to get inhibited however. This is why having a backup of your codeplug and/or S-Record is a very good idea.

While I understand that people in the US, and perhaps other parts of Canada are in a different situation with respect to commercial radios on a TRS, things in the Toronto area are just not like that. The Telecom guys all know that there are a large number of radios floating around that monitor the systems. So long as your radio is not capable of transmitting to the system in any way, you're not going to have to worry about crossing their path in a bad way.

Now, if you have to ask questions such as how to set coverage type, system settings, system ID, radio ID, ignition sense switch or whatever - then I agree, you should not be programming it on a TRS, period.

fire4117 wrote:I'm pretty sure that Industry Canada doesn't look lightly upon people hacking into Public Safety Systems, not to mention the agencies being hacked.

Industry Canada is nothing more than a Tax collector. There was a case awhile back in Hamilton (I think) where someone had managed to get their ham radio talking on the local police repeater (VHF analog conventional at the time). It took months of detective work, mostly by the local amateur radio operators, to track down the individual responsible. Even after Industry Canada was presented with the name and location of the suspect, they refused to do anything about it, saying there is a lack of evidence. They said they needed video and audio recordings of the individual transmitting before they would even look into it. This is after a formal complaint by the police force.

If that's how serious they take intentional jamming on a PS system, I highly doubt they have the resources to track someone down who's radio is transmitting a very quick ISW every few hours.

Agreed, knowledge is key when dealing with using radios to monitor systems. A very good thread to read from a couple of years back:

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

I detailed a fair bit of experimenting in this particular thread regarding affiliation, TX Inhibit, site scanning, etc.

Todd

Excellent work Todd!

I replied to that thread, but just to summarize. As long as you have TX Inhibit enabled (either through the ignition sense line, or the concentric switch), there is no way your radio is going to transmit, be it voice or affiliations. This is regardless of what kind of coverage type you have programmed, or what band your radio is. Also, as far as my experience is concerned, the radio does NOT need to receive a successful affiliation in order to receive traffic on the talkgroup. This holds true for the Spectra, Astro Spectra, Astro Saber, XTS3000, XTS5000 - VHF and 800MHz.

Edit: Your name isn't "Tood"!

Actually, depending on the system, sometimes you do.

I tried a little experiment on a SZOL system that I had access too. The radio WOULD NOT RX voice at all, using the above method. For whatever reason, it wouldn't. Once it went to another zone (system) that did, it was good to go.

Now, it did show activity on the channel, but would not unmute. Couldn't figure it out.

But again, why spend the money and trouble just to listen to 10 talkgroups in the scanlist?

As for my last post in the other thread, that still stands. I think Grem can also chime in on that as well.

I've heard from a few other people that on an Omni Link system it doesn't unmute. My guess is that it's an Omni Link thing.

In the field, I wouldn't think that it matters as the OL portion is "backroom" stuff. TG 123 is still TG 123 over the air. OL just provides the intra-zone linking behind the scenes. Maybe there is more to it, but I can't see it.

I'm listening to a 69 Site SZOL with a MTS2000, the same system Todd based his tests on in the thread he linked to, I set the system as WAC AMSS, affiliate on PTT, with all 32 control channels, PTT switch disabled, and Tx Inhibit set to both positions of the concentric switch and I have no problems whatsoever, the radio cannot transmit, and it recieves everything just fine.

People that are in charge of things for the city police and fire department know theres a few of these radios around, and they could not care less, as long as your not interfereing with them, which has yet to happen.

I believe the MTS/MCS can be set to SmartZone, and affilate on PTT, and not worry (as long as you take the usual precautions).

Its the ASTRO's that will auto affilate when SmartZone is selected (no choice). I have tried the WAC AMSS and that works very well. I have noticed that the radio does seem to behave differently between analong systems and digtal systems. My example above was with a digtal system. I have yet to run into the same muting problem with a like analog system.

Again, WAC AMSS on some digital system will not decode the digital audio, even though its locked on a local site, or if you scan to another site. This was on a SZOL system. Second it went to SZ, life was good.

So, I don't know.

Pj wrote:Actually, depending on the system, sometimes you do.

I tried a little experiment on a SZOL system that I had access too. The radio WOULD NOT RX voice at all, using the above method. For whatever reason, it wouldn't. Once it went to another zone (system) that did, it was good to go.

Now, it did show activity on the channel, but would not unmute. Couldn't figure it out.

But again, why spend the money and trouble just to listen to 10 talkgroups in the scanlist?

As for my last post in the other thread, that still stands. I think Grem can also chime in on that as well.

what can i chime in on?

The wonderful inhibit command with radio's not actually affilated to the system

Oh, if your radio doesn't affiliate to the system and an inhibit command is sent to whatever RID you're using - your radio WILL get zapped, there's no doubt about that. This is why using CPS is a bad idea if you can avoid it. At the very least, use a Radio ID of something that won't get inhibited. You might be tempted to use a console ID, as that would never get inhibited right? Well, if for some reason your radio ever DID talk to the system, and it used a console RID, it would deaffiliate the dispatch console, leaving dispatch unable to use said console. The only way to fix this is to reprogram the console, as it was never designed to reaffiliate to the system. A much safer bet would be to figure out the RID of say, a station radio, one that wouldn't get inhibited but that isn't 100% mission critical.

no guarentee on using ANY id... figure if you clone a legit ID, and that radio gets stolen... any good admin will brick it.. along with your radio.

and again, just because your radio is TX disabled, your radio will respond to commands, both benign and "killer"

Yes, but here atleast, there is no one that goes searching for cloned RID's or anything like that, this being one of the largest trunking systems in the country, I don't even think they have someone that monitors the system continously, let alone going around zapping radios, and to date, I have not heard of anyone being killed, even though they are running Genesis's GenSZAI software or whatever its called...

grem467 wrote:no guarentee on using ANY id... figure if you clone a legit ID, and that radio gets stolen... any good admin will brick it.. along with your radio.

and again, just because your radio is TX disabled, your radio will respond to commands, both benign and "killer"

Responding in the form that the radio will inhibit itself, yes. But when the TX Inhibit switch is enabled, absolutely no transmissions of any kind will be transmitted from the radio. So, if you are sitting on a TRS with TX Inhibit enabled, and a radio inhibit OSW is sent, your radio will go to sleep, but it won't transmit anything over the air. This has been verified on VHF and 800MHz systems.

Depending on the system you want to listen in on, there are certain radio ID's that are "safe" to use. Up in Toronto for example, every division has a radio at the duty desk. Using that radio's ID would probably guarentee that you won't get zapped. That is, what are the chances of the station radio being stolen? Then again, the whole radio inhibit arguement is somewhat moot if you know how to revive an inhibited radio.

The real way to do it would be to set your RID to 0000. I don't know if this can be done on any of the newer (MTSX and up) series portables/mobiles, but I know it can be done on Maxtrac and GTX radios. Because 0000 (700000) isn't a valid radio ID, there's no way to send an inhibit command to that ID from the console.

Or, you could bank on the hope that the system administrator hasn't given inhibit abilities to the consoles. There's a very large VHF SmartZone system in Ontario for the Provincial Government and it's agencies that is owned and maintained by the private sector. They have chosen to not allow consoles to inhibit a radio. Lucky for the hackers I guess

VE9MP wrote:I have not heard of anyone being killed, even though they are running Genesis's GenSZAI software or whatever its called...

Keep in mind, software like the Genesis suite are passive. They can't force a radio to reveal itself. As long as people with "hacked" radios monitoring the system aren't actually affiliating to the system, those programs will never pick up on them. SystemWatch is a different beast, it can actually poll the system and force affiliations for every valid (and invalid) RID on the system, if need be.

bellersley wrote: Responding in the form that the radio will inhibit itself, yes. But when the TX Inhibit switch is enabled, absolutely no transmissions of any kind will be transmitted from the radio.

We sent an Astro Saber and an XTS3k a "radio check" command with the TX Inhibit trick enabled. It responded. At the time I think it was early DSP8 firmware and associated HOST (1meg).

This was on an 4.1 Astro SZ system (I think).

bellersley wrote:

VE9MP wrote:I have not heard of anyone being killed, even though they are running Genesis's GenSZAI software or whatever its called...

Keep in mind, software like the Genesis suite are passive. They can't force a radio to reveal itself. As long as people with "hacked" radios monitoring the system aren't actually affiliating to the system, those programs will never pick up on them. SystemWatch is a different beast, it can actually poll the system and force affiliations for every valid (and invalid) RID on the system, if need be.

genesis is, but Zone Manager is NOT... sending an inhibit will brick your radio, regardless of your current affiliation status,and we dont need an ack from your radio...

VE9MP wrote: and to date, I have not heard of anyone being killed, even though they are running Genesis's GenSZAI software or whatever its called...

They have inhibited several police & DNR radios which were reported as "lost or stolen"...of course they soon made their way to our repair shop afterwards. It's a good way to recover misplaced radios. As far as killing unauthorised radios, I haven't heard of any being done yet either. The few people who use radios to monitor the system would seem to know how to do it without drawing undue attention.

Todd