Batboard

Hey Everyone! =)

I am on here looking for information for radio repair. I have some basic knowledge in programming various Motorola portables, and basic knowledge of radio operation and repair (very basic). I also have very basic electronic knowledge (mainly just recognizing what parts are what). What I am looking for a either a book or internet resource that gives basic and advanced information with trouble shooting and repairing radios (mainly modern and semi modern radios). I have looked on Google and other search engines but have found nothing but people offering to repair radios, which don’t help me LOL. Any suggestions would really be appreciated. Thank you very very much! =)

-Bob

My two bits worth:
I have some experience repairing radios, as well as other electronic equipment, about 50 years.

There are several kinds of trouble shooting often employed in servicing radios.
1) The "Theoreitical" technician. This person follows the troubleshooting guides to the letter. Usuially finds and repairs the problem, but slow.
Understands the purpose of every circuit component.

2) "Intuitive" tech. This person has many years of experience, knows which part causes what problem, has little idea exactly what the part does, or how to test it. Most problems are simple, so has a fast turn around.

3) Guesser: Changes parts and assemblies until it starts to work, or scraps it. Has no idea what he is doing. Evolves into #2 if he keeps employment.

Most techs are a hibred of the above.

The construction technology has drastically changed over the years.

The days of soldering components with a real soldering iron with 50/50 solder are long over.

Now days one must use silver bearing solder with anti static temperature cotrolled solder equipment. Special techniques are required for large many pinned chips. We are now starting to see subscriber units made with lead free solder, which will require new re work techniques.

You MUST have a good grasp of basic electronics. Many Juniour Colleges as well as trade schools offer courses in electronics.

With a good background you are not confined to just one kind of product.
You will also find that you will need test equipment, as a minimum, a System Analyzer, such as a Motorola R2600B, R2001D, Good quality O scope and DVM. A watt meter and load.
Not to mention hand tools, as well as soldering equipment.

Visit the 2 way shop closest to you. Introduce your self, ask what they are looking for in a tech.

Perhaps you can get a part time job so you can get some experience, as well as use their equipment.

I eventually hired several technicians for my shop after they came in for a visit. I was shop supervisor for the Motorola Honolulu facility for several years in the 70's-80's.

Just to add to Bernies thoughts.
You need to start as a level 1 Tech.
Whilst it is mainly cosmetic repairs, new knobs, etc it is a start.
Also with autotest software you can trained easily to do test and alignment without even opening the radio.

They may let you change a volume pot, a fuse, a battery contact here and there and if you dont screw up you will progress futher.
You will need some electronics training as if you are serious you will need an FCC licence eventually.
As for board repair on modern two way equipment, this is becoming less and less. You replace the board or send it back to the factory for repair. The cost of chipmaster rework stations with all the add on's is prohibitive for many shops and it is just cheaper for fixed price repair rather than hours of diagnosis followed by the rework procedure.

As for the guesser we had one when I lived in Australia.
If we used logic and experience on a unit, and couldnt fix it we passed it to Con. He would systematicly change every component and test after every change. It made him feel good as he fixed all the "dogs" (albeit very slowly) He was in his element when we had 100's of MX320-S radios in the fleet and had his own personel set of modules.

The FCC license doesn't mean squat. More and more service facilities require a 4 year College BSEE degree to perform technical repairs. The FCC license, NABER and NARTE Certificates are just bonus points to the would be H.R. personnel and employers. Everything got striped away back in 1986 when the National Broadcast Engineers removed the requirements to hold a First Class Radio Telephone License to be employed in the Broadcast industry.

Slowly but surely the Land Mobile Radio industry followed, then the Marine / Shipping industry followed and then Avionics / Commercial Airlines dropped the requirements. I believe the only place the now General Radio Telephone Operator License still holds any credentials, when personnel are sent to the International Markets so those Governments believe you are qualified to perform work on their communications equipment but not always so. It really means you know how to pass an exam. You really nead formal training in the electronics field of study.

Here's where Bernie is mistaken. Back in April 2004 our U.S. Federal Government Department Of Labor raised the bar on educational and employment requirements for practically every career position. Anyone with a High School Diploma and one year up to just a credit hour less than a 4 year College degree are now considered a technician and can only be compensated by receiving an hourly pay scale no matter how smart you are or having many years of experience in your career.

A 4 year College degree as a BSEE is now considered to be nothing more than an Electronic Techician and if you would graduate with a MSEE, then you're considered a bona fide Electrical Engineer to work on Project Design and Development. Many Junior Colleges around the United States have dropped their ASEE 2 year College Courses because of little demand. Besides what would it buy an individual for a career position in electronics when you need a 4 year degree now a days.

Industry is pushing 98% of electronic career positions Off-Shore to save Billions of dollars on labor cost and benefits but not passing the savings along to the everyday consumers. We are being corraled into a third world country and financially breaking what formerly was considered to be the middle class of working people who ended up paying most of the State and Federal Taxes.

/\/\ as a corporation helped revolutionize this movement 20 years ago in 1986 and the corporate management calculated it would only take 10 years to accomplish moving all of their U.S. citizen career positions out of the U.S. to foreign countries. It's taken a bit longer but not that much time. The only /\/\ workers in the U.S.A. will be Corporate Management and there's a good possibility that most of these personnel positions will be Hired as Contractors (meaning lower pay scales and no benefits).

Which brings me to this question, USSZulu2, "Do you really want to per sue a career in electronics now knowing what enstore for you?"

I believe the only place the now General Radio Telephone Operator License still holds any credentials, when personnel are sent to the International Markets so those Governments believe you are qualified to perform work on their communications equipment but not always so

Have worked Australia, Thialand, Carrib, Sweden and Saudi as well as here, never needed one, never been asked for one, dont have one.

Here's where Bernie is mistaken. Back in April 2004 our U.S. Federal Government Department Of Labor raised the bar on educational and employment requirements for practically every career position. Anyone with a High School Diploma and one year up to just a credit hour less than a 4 year College degree are now considered a technician and can only be compensated by receiving an hourly pay scale no matter how smart you are or having many years of experience in your career.

The government stops me from paying more?
We don't have a maximum wage.
I don't think so although with the current administration I'm not suprised[/quote]

Dan562 wrote:Which brings me to this question, USSZulu2, "Do you really want to per sue a career in electronics now knowing what enstore for you?"

Agreed-I've been working in this business for a number of years and while I make a decent living at it, now probably isn't the right time to get in. My repair business is very good right now, but I do employ state of the art service gear and rework equipment to get it done. However, I'm sure there were other doomsday predictions when transistors came out, followed by large-scale IC's.

Motorola's move to send repairs out of the country was a wake-up call. That kind of job should have been safe from off-shoring...is anything safe anymore?

Hi Everyone...

Thank you for the suggestions/comments everyone...

To answer Dan’s and Tony’s question...honestly this isn’t to get into the industry (although if I get the right job/position then it certainly is a possibility). I have been interested in radio communications since I was little. Problem is it’s hard to find much information you can learn without having to go to a college for it. Basically it’s my intention to learn this because I want to be able to repair my own equipment and people's I know, along with just knowing how the radio works. I do have a service monitor which I use to do very basic diagnostics. I would like to be able to do more advanced problem solving and repair. So that is why I have come here =)

-Bob

One good resource is the ARRL Handbook. It comes out every year. The latest is $45 at Amazon, but you can find older ones cheap and they don't change all that much from one year to the next, mostly just a few different projects.

They cover a lot of theory, basic circuits for oscillators, amps, filters, troubleshooting, construction, antennas, all sorts of good stuff.
They also have some other ARRL books, there's one specifically on antennas, and a few other subjects.

They're geared towards Hams, but a good bit of the information can apply to any type of radios.

You might also see if you can pick up some used service manuals, check your local radio shops, they might have some extras they'd be willing to part with free or cheap.

You might think about beginning in the Installation department at a large service shop. What you will learn there installing mobiles will form the very basis for your productivity. Learn the installation and removal game and you'll always be needed.

This will also lead into field service, checking mobile problems, antennas broken off, etc. Because of the design of newer circuit boards in radio equipment, you won't be fixing it on site unless you change out the box with a spare, let's say. Then you may advance to do assist work on antenna sites.

There's lots to do other than boxing radios up to ship to the depot. Because there are techs around who don't want to get their hands dirty, you will become more valuable to management as an income producer. Learn all you can about installations and how the systems work, and you'll be ok.

Bob,

By all means go after the experience to learn electronics from the ground up. It takes a bit longer to learn but you'll retain the knowledge that you acquired. It’s a definite learning curve that doesn’t happen overnight.

Bruce1807,

I didn't state the FCC license is required for International Markets, it just gives those customers a warm and fuzzy feeling that you may know what you're doing. The license was nothing more than a foot in the door on most radio communication positions, you still had to prove your knowledge.

Quote: “We don't have a maximum wage.” Try to tell that line to Corporate America, their Human Resource Department personnel and the U.S. Department of Labor!

And wages, well while I was employed at /\/\ in an Engineering Department that wrote the encryption for the Secure Products and provided the Infrastructure’s SP Bid and Quotes and product development. Our entire department was pulled into a meeting in January 2004 and told that the corporation could replace us with PhD Electrical Engineers in mainland China since those people could be financially compensated at $12,500.00 not Per Month BUT Per Year! Far be it from me to be able to live on a Salary like that (below the poverty stage) here in the United States.

Our Department had many Green Card personnel from overseas and you should have heard those people bitching! The handwriting was on the wall and it was only a matter of time till they forced me out of the door without a Buy-Out Package after 24 years! Of course, I wasn't the only person to go and /\/\ continues to do this today by furloughong American employees as we are not good enough to employ anymore. We have become a throw away society, even more so now with the American work force and the former benefit packages.

I'll add one more item to this equation, I'm well over 50 years in age and Corporate America will find any way to rid themselves of senior employees. You've got to remember, we're all getting older as time passes. We can't do or keep up with the younger adults unless you want to die trying and I've been in that position too.

Bruce1807, you can say whatever you want about Corporate America on their behalf but just remember, you can be replaced at a moments notice by a Third World engineer at a fraction of your salary.

Oh Yeah, I talked to a former Contract Manager in the spring of 1999 for Northrop-Grumman Corporation in Rolling Meadows, IL. He informed me that "our" military Fighter jets (by Northrop) are being built in Japan. You better hope that the U.S. Federal Government does not manage to Piss-Off Japan or we're going to be screwed!

I often wonder, “Whatever happened to Good Old Yankee Know How and the American Can Do Spirit?”

There are still numerous government agencies that require applicants possess a GROL in order to qualify for communications technician positions.

escomm wrote:There are still numerous government agencies that require applicants possess a GROL in order to qualify for communications technician positions.

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Dan562 wrote:Oh Yeah, I talked to a former Contract Manager in the spring of 1999 for Northrop-Grumman Corporation in Rolling Meadows, IL. He informed me that "our" military Fighter jets (by Northrop) are being built in Japan.

I go by Northrop's F-18 plant several times a week. It's in El Segundo.

Jeff

I often wonder, “Whatever happened to Good Old Yankee Know How and the American Can Do Spirit?”

He's working at McDonalds.

Redundency is something I don't fear.
China cant do my job and work has always been easy to find on contract.
My current contract just began it's 14th year.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions! I know I got a lot to learn but I hope I am making a start. =)

-Bob

Bruce1807 wrote:

I often wonder, “Whatever happened to Good Old Yankee Know How and the American Can Do Spirit?”

He's working at McDonalds.

Redundency is something I don't fear.
China cant do my job and work has always been easy to find on contract.
My current contract just began it's 14th year.

I can guarantee my job can't go overseas. They don't issue security clearances to people who don't live here.

Gotta love federal government jobs

They don't issue security clearances to people who don't live here.

I know a bunch of people at the Department of Energy that might beg to differ.....


-Shawn

Sorry, I meant to say I'm in Australia.

The clearance I hold has a continuous 10 year residence requirement. The agency I work for is not likely to let unknown Indians and Chinese go playing with their computers from abroad...

For those looking for a decent start, the military has some very good training programs. While you will be working on military specific equipment, the basics are all the same and the experience is always a plus.

The trick is choosing the right MOS. In the Army that means avoiding Signal Corp MOS's and choosing from the electronics repair MOS's in the Ordnance branch.

KF4PEP wrote:For those looking for a decent start, the military has some very good training programs. While you will be working on military specific equipment, the basics are all the same and the experience is always a plus.

The trick is choosing the right MOS. In the Army that means avoiding Signal Corp MOS's and choosing from the electronics repair MOS's in the Ordnance branch.

And then they give you a gun and off you'll go on Bushes adventure tours.

KF4PEP wrote:For those looking for a decent start, the military has some very good training programs. While you will be working on military specific equipment, the basics are all the same and the experience is always a plus.

The trick is choosing the right MOS. In the Army that means avoiding Signal Corp MOS's and choosing from the electronics repair MOS's in the Ordnance branch.

I will second that. I'm going through the Bio-Medical Engineering School right now and it is AWESOME. It's extremely fast paced, but you really learn a lot with all of the hands on applications. They start from the beginning of electronics and now in the 9th week (Block 3) we're finding "bugs" in medical equipment and repairing them. I'm in the Navy, and have been trying to get this school for a while. They only let the more senior Petty Officers go to this school. Army and Air Force also go here, but they go right out of boot camp.

The school is 41 weeks long for the Army and the Air Force and an additional 3 months for the Navy. The Navy is put through the Advanced Course as soon as the Basic Course is completed due to us being stationed on ships by ourselves.

http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/bmet/basic_course.htm

Civilians can attend as well as long as they are funded by their command.

[edit] Oh yeah, they pay isn't half bad when you get out either. As a certified BMET, you'll make a lot more working on hospital equipment than you ever will repairing radios. Then you can afford to buy your own radios and fix them yourself.

RESCUE161 wrote:

KF4PEP wrote:For those looking for a decent start, the military has some very good training programs. While you will be working on military specific equipment, the basics are all the same and the experience is always a plus.

The trick is choosing the right MOS. In the Army that means avoiding Signal Corp MOS's and choosing from the electronics repair MOS's in the Ordnance branch.

I will second that. I'm going through the Bio-Medical Engineering School right now and it is AWESOME. It's extremely fast paced, but you really learn a lot with all of the hands on applications. They start from the beginning of electronics and now in the 9th week (Block 3) we're finding "bugs" in medical equipment and repairing them. I'm in the Navy, and have been trying to get this school for a while. They only let the more senior Petty Officers go to this school. Army and Air Force also go here, but they go right out of boot camp.

The school is 41 weeks long for the Army and the Air Force and an additional 3 months for the Navy. The Navy is put through the Advanced Course as soon as the Basic Course is completed due to us being stationed on ships by ourselves.

http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/bmet/basic_course.htm

Civilians can attend as well as long as they are funded by their command.

[edit] Oh yeah, they pay isn't half bad when you get out either. As a certified BMET, you'll make a lot more working on hospital equipment than you ever will repairing radios. Then you can afford to buy your own radios and fix them yourself.

Oh yeah, great MOS. I have a buddy trying to reclass into that MOS in a reserve unit here. Best of both worlds, good money while training, and he comes home and will be very, very employable on the civilian side.

Plus for the Army it has a Warrant Officer MOS that it feeds into, so after a few years experience you can go to WOCS and make the big $$$$. They open that to Navy with the same experience also if the want to transfer.

KF4PEP wrote:Plus for the Army it has a Warrant Officer MOS that it feeds into, so after a few years experience you can go to WOCS and make the big $$$$. They open that to Navy with the same experience also if the want to transfer.

Yeah, we have a guy that got picked up and will be a Warrant Officer and he'll put it on in January.

I'd do it, but I'm over the hill...lol I will only have 4 years to retirement when I graduate the school in July.

i have been repairing RF gear for the past 25 yrs and i know i can get a job anywhere in the world.
i can tell you want any part does and the reason why is is there in most analogue radios