Batboard

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about TRBO yet (besides the fact it has a silly name). I know they haven't hit the shelves yet, but I have heard mother M has been having some seminars to get their product out there for people to see it. Just wondering if anyone on here has had a chance to play with them.

poor mans Tetra under another bame.

Bruce1807 wrote:poor mans Tetra under another bame.

More like "just enough different from phase 2 APCO-25 to not be covered under the RAND licensing agreements".

I got to play with them at the dealer roadshow in october. There was no repeater setup, but they did have a demo of the server/console side of things for the GPS tracking and let us send text messages and talk to each other on them for a few minutes.

escomm wrote:I got to play with them at the dealer roadshow in october. There was no repeater setup, but they did have a demo of the server/console side of things for the GPS tracking and let us send text messages and talk to each other on them for a few minutes.

How was the sound quality? Impressed, not impressed? How rugged do they seem to be?

Sound quality was OK, although keep in mind we were all inside the trailer that wavetar posted pics of recently and were within 25 feet of each other.

As for the ruggedness, /\/\ claims they are submersible to 1 meter, and are built to the standard mil specs for drops, driving rain, dust etc, so take that with a grain of salt.

I played with them a fair bit at the roadshow in November. I found they have a lot of the same features as the DTR series, as far as the SMS text messaging & such. Physically they are loosely based on the Waris series, and Motorola says they will be able to do all the analog features of the Waris as well. The digital side of things will be impressive once they finalize the console & GPS tracking. They have pushed back the launch date a few times, as they claim they don't want to release the platform until it's "ready". They are taking all the suggestions given to them at the various roadshows & are working at implementing some of them.

Other than that I had them in my hands briefly back at the IWCE in May, and saw the repeater in action at that point. I'll admit it was cool to see two simultaneous conversations going through it at the same time. The repeater was housed in a GR1225 style cabinet.

Motorola's plan is to base much of their future products on the TRBO platform. They say TRBO based trunking is definitely going to happen, they just haven't sat down to figure out whether it's going to be a Passport type, or SmartNet/Zone type, or maybe offer both. I'd like to see a TRBO version of the MTR2000!

Todd

Thats why I said it was close to Tetra.
TDMA allows simultaneous cobversations on the same RF channel.
There is a portable in the pipeline that will do TDMA and FDMA

Public safety will be moving more and more to the TDMA platform which in essence is Tetra.
There is very little difference in the Tetra platform and the 7.x infrastructure execpt the way the base stations work. The new GTR bases are based off the Tetra bases and the controllers just run different software although much of the gui's are identical.

What is "TRBO" and "RAND" ?

TRBO is the name of the new radio line.

Kinda lke the MotoRAZR, this is the MotoTRBO. It seems they have brought this naming scheme into their new 2-way line.

Another question is (from this ham's POV) will it do 2 meter or 70 cm frequencies out of the box?

Other than the fact it uses TDMA, it's digital, and the standard came out of ETSI, it doesn't have all that much in common with TETRA.

The thing I like about this is it's an open standard - there are already a number of manufacturers in Europe gearing up to manufacture gear for this standard, on both licensed bands and PMR446 (European FRS.)

There's a good rundown of the system, and Motorola's upcoming products here:

http://developer.motorola.com/docstools ... ochure.pdf

The radios currently listed are 403-470, so they'll do 70cm.

Check out the bottom right hand corner on page 3 of that pdf

Hah, good catch

I am the only one who noticed the mics on the TRBO mobiles do not look like the familar modular-8 connectors of the business-tier radios of the past?

Seems to be the newer round XTL-style connector. The modular-8 is called an RJ-45.

No, it's an 8P8C modular connector. Referring to them as RJ-45 is a common misconception.

RJ45 specifies a physical connector, and the wiring of it. The true RJ45 uses a special keyed 8P2C modular connector, that will not mate with a socket designed for an ordinary 8P8C connector as used for Ethernet. Pins 5 and 4 of the special connector are wired for tip and ring, and pins 7 and 8 connected to a programming resistor. I believe the RJ-45 is obsolete now.

But go into RatShack and ask for a pack of 8P8C connectors and you will get a blank face.
Mind you ask for a pack of RJ45 youll still get a blank face or we only sell thes in singles.

Wikpedia further explains the naming problems

To avoid ambiguity in this section, they will be referred to as true telephone RJ45 and computer "RJ45". Except where otherwise indicated, this article is about the computer "RJ45" alone.

Originally, there was only the true telephone RJ45. It is one of the many registered jacks, like RJ11, a standard from which it gets the "RJ" in its name. As a registered jack, true telephone RJ45 specifies a physical connector, and also the wiring of it. The true telephone RJ45 uses a special, keyed 8P2C modular connector, with Pins 5 and 4 wired for tip and ring of a single telephone line and Pins 7 and 8 connected to a programming resistor. It is meant to be used with a high speed modem, and is obsolete today.

Telephone installers who installed true telephone RJ45 jacks in the past were familiar with the inner workings which made it RJ45, but their clients saw only a hole in the wall of a particular shape, and came to understand RJ45 as the name for a hole of that shape. When they found similar-looking connectors being used in entirely non-telephone applications, usually connecting computers, they called these "RJ45", too. This was therefore the so-called computer "RJ45".

Compounding the problem was the fact that the physical connectors indicated by true telephone RJ45 are not even compatible with computer "RJ45" connectors. True telephone RJ45 connectors are a special variant of 8P2C, meaning only the middle 2 positions have conductors in them, while pins 7 and 8 are shorting a programming resistor. Computer "RJ45" is 8P8C -- all eight conductors are always present. Furthermore, true telephone RJ45 involves a "keyed" variety of the 8P body, which means it may have an extra tab that a computer "RJ45" connector is unable to mate with.

Because true telephone RJ45 never saw wide usage and computer "RJ45" has become well known today, computer "RJ45" is almost always what a person is referring to when he says "RJ45". Electronics catalogs not specialized to the telephone industry advertise 8P8C modular connectors as "RJ45". Virtually all electronic equipment that uses an 8P8C connector (or possibly any 8P connector at all) will document it as an "RJ45" connector.

There have been conflicts when clients demand "RJ45" and an installer insists that they ask for something else or they will get something quite different from what they actually need.

Rounding out the confusion in "RJ45" naming is the fact that some people intend for the term to encompass not just the connector shape and size, but the wiring standard for it described by TIA/EIA-568-B as well. So one might find "Here is the pinout of an RJ45 jack."

Johnny Galaga wrote:What is "TRBO" and "RAND" ?

As answered previously, TRBO is the name Motorola chose for their new radio line.

RAND is an acronym for "Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory", a type of licensing deal in which the owner of intellectual property agrees to license the use of that property for a fixed (and presumably low) fee to anybody making equipment embodying a specific standard in exchange for the standards body defining the standard defining the intellectual property as a part of the standard.

For example, DVSI, the owners of the AMBE vocoder used in APCO-25 phase II have agreed to license the vocoder to anybody making P25 gear for a specified fee - no exceptions. They cannot say "eew - we don't like you. NO VOCODER FOR YOU."

And as for the other posters likening TRBO to TETRA - that's like saying that a dog is just a bear by another name, as they both have muzzles and four legs, rather than likening the dog to a wolf.

I've seen the specs for TETRA, P25, and TRBO (remember who is doing the test solution for these products) and TRBO is a HELL of a lot closer to P25 phase II TDMA than it is to TETRA.

TRBO repeater offering 100% Continous Duty Cycle? Might have to swap those out for some R1225 crap here.

Our Moto-Truck demo at the Roadshow had the TRBO repeater unplugged and was not connected to Dispatch PC so we did not play with the text messaging feature.

Pricing is supposed to be similar to HT Waris series AFAIK.

Wayne

sent in my orders for demo kits, gonna get a few portables and mobiles for free too since we are level 4 motostar

now to find some rack and tower space!

Yeah, I just saw the announcements on MOL regarding the demo kits. Awesome pricing for the stuff, too bad it's limited to qty 1 of each kit per dealer location. The free repeater with purchase of 25 portables is interesting too. I'm sure our sales guys will be all over it Monday.

Todd

MSRP is closer to HT1250 and HT1550 on portables for MotoTRBO.The Mobiles are right along lines with CDM1250/1550.

I hope and pray these do not have as many bugs in them as Waris did when they were first released.

*fingers crossed*
Wayne

wavetar wrote:The free repeater with purchase of 25 portables is interesting too.

Wha?!? Do tell!

Actually it's 25 mobiles or portables (or any combination thereof).

Motorola will ship a free XPR8300 repeater, although I don't think that includes a duplexer or anything.

well that just about settles it.

i want one..

or 25 if it comes with a free repeater..

Is the free repeater deal still available? Also, is there a limit on how many free repeaters you can get? I was going to pass this info on to an agency that is looking to buy ~80 portables, 15 mobiles, and a couple repeaters.
Thanks

I dunno what the limit is, but I hear the offer ends on the 27th of this month.

Hurry, supplies are limited, batteries not included, order with your credit card and receive free shipping [only available to the first -5 callers] Kidding!

did I miss something, are they making them only in UHF ?

TWL911 wrote:did I miss something, are they making them only in UHF ?

For now,only UHF.Working on VHF and UHF LTR for later this year sometime.

3/27 is cut off date for the free MOTOTRBO repeater with pruchase of 25
radios.

Wayne

UHF LTR? What do you mean

escomm wrote:UHF LTR? What do you mean

He means Trident is going to toss one of their Passport option boards into the units to give us the "LS+" versions of the radios...or so I've been told.

Todd

wavetar wrote:

escomm wrote:UHF LTR? What do you mean

He means Trident is going to toss one of their Passport option boards into the units to give us the "LS+" versions of the radios...or so I've been told.

Todd

So theoretically you can conventional analog, LTR analog, and digital TDMA as options? Adding LTR to the mix would make this radio that much better......

OK guys - Enough with the funny owl photos...

It's funny - but lets keep the thread on track and professional

Uh, the mobile won't send DTMF on analog?

I am currently programming and bench testing the Trbo portables, mobiles and a repeater.

We will be setting this up with a Zetron 4000 Series console for messaging, postioning and emergency to test. The repeater does not come with duplexers.

The mobile mike does NOT do DTMF. The connector on the mike is the new GCAI connector used on the XTL's, but this mobile programs through the USB interface cable on the back of the radio. The repeater is the same.

I just plugged a dozen of the local ham boxes into the portable while I am testing, it works just like my XTS.

The tracking/messaging software comes on 4 CD's, and takes a bum load of disk space, and NONE of the software runs on anything older than Win2K SP4. Be prepared.

Our other project for the day is determining how the average power levels in the digital mode affect the accuracy of our old wattmeters.

The repeater looks very similar to the design of the RKR1225, and similarly, I would assume that the heatsinks won't support the 45 watt output level for continuous duty. I will let you know what we find out.

com501 wrote: The repeater looks very similar to the design of the RKR1225, and similarly, I would assume that the heatsinks won't support the 45 watt output level for continuous duty. I will let you know what we find out.

We asked this very question during an online info session a few weeks back and where assured that it would indeed to 100% duty cycle at the full rated power.

ve3nsv wrote:

com501 wrote: The repeater looks very similar to the design of the RKR1225, and similarly, I would assume that the heatsinks won't support the 45 watt output level for continuous duty. I will let you know what we find out.

We asked this very question during an online info session a few weeks back and where assured that it would indeed to 100% duty cycle at the full rated power.

Yep, the printed specs say the same story, 100% duty at full power.

Todd

Well, they sure get cranky hot!! We were testing in the shop. Not sure I like running them at full power anyway, since any repairs will be a 'send it to the depot' (or is this a Mexirola repair?) for at least the first year.

Single board radio and all.

I called support and they said the same thing, we will do our best to blow it up tomorrow. I will keep you posted.

The text messaging software and SQL install ate 20 gigs on my computer in the lab. Not only that, SQL, ArcView, ESRI and a whole bunch of other processor intensive stuff is running all the time. The system software is a real resource pig. It wants at least a gig of ram, and a 2gig processor.

Whee!!

20GB? WTF?

That's what I said!

Hey one word of advice, follow the manual word for word, no shortcuts and install the disks in exact order or you'll end up doing several removals and reinstalls. 3 weeks and still no text or gps.

They sent a manual??

The background processes were a little but daunting. My IT guy was VERY reluctant to allow me to add an SQL Server to my PC, let alone connect it to our network!

The web interface and text messaging potential is awesome. Still working on getting the GPS timing to a point where the duty cycle of the repeater is acceptable.

(I only had to uninstall and reinstall four times!)

Plus, THREE updates to Microsloth, and the need for the CD for the OS...

com501 wrote:My IT guy was VERY reluctant to allow me to add an SQL Server to my PC, let alone connect it to our network!

wow. someone isn't too sure about their security infrastructre!

My argument always is: You gave me a key to the front door and an alarm code, so what's the deal with me being able to load my own software?

Is the communications protocol between the PC and radio for text messaging etc documented? There's gotta be a far better way of doing it than with 20GB of crap.

com501 wrote:The background processes were a little but daunting. My IT guy was VERY reluctant to allow me to add an SQL Server to my PC, let alone connect it to our network!(

Sounds about right - Our network team know what each app is doing on the network, doles out access accordingly (everything is banned unless expressly allowed ruleset)

If the application is part of an approved project, it gets installed on a non-networked test machine until it's been vetted as safe.

Precisely how my organisation (an Australian federal government department) does it too, including going through the formal change management process.

OK, testing done. Here's the good and bad news from our standpoint.

The repeater of course, only does analog or digital at one time, you have to reprogram it. I am sure this is a marketing thing, as if it did both while on the hill, it would compete with the Quantar.

At full power, with both time slots running at 100% duty cycle, things start to smell after about an hour. I would suspect that if this unit were put in the top of a casino and let fly like we do with other repeaters, if left at full power it would consume itself rather sooner than later. Otherwise, its a good repeater.

In analog, it would make a fairly inexpensive analog mid-power unit, if you didn't need the 100w option, and it covers the entire split from 403-470 without a problem.

The portables do NOT do DTMF, at all. So if you have any customers who want any kind of DTMF signalling or a digital equivalent, forget it. We discussed this with support, there was some indication that this might be an analog feature down the road. If /\/\ chooses to do this, I would think a rework for some kind of digital equivalent output on the TDMA side would make sense also.

Scan/priority scan is pretty lame. On the digital side, so slow as to be useless pretty much. Between two repeaters slow. Between two time slots on the same repeater, eternal. Analog or digital simplex, not too bad. Priority scan in digital mode is not suported or useful on this radio. We flat could not make it do anything either a)intelligible or b)fast enough.

The TDMA carrier is problematic around computers, audio sources and computer monitors (tube) similar to what your Nextel phone would do, only magnified 10X by the power output of the portable.

The GPS positiong software (demo version) allows one(1) unit to be tracked. It DOES work, and seems to work pretty well. The sampling rates are programmable and there is a great tutuorial for determining loading requirements for different systems so your data doesn't overwhelm the system. The GPS receiver built into the portable and mobile seem to work as well as any modern GPS receiver on the market today. The software provides ample data, including bread crumb, speed, altitude, position, position accuracy and a host of other things, as well as alerting you when a unit either falls outside of a preset boundary or fails to update.

The messaging text server and interface log ALL data on the channel, not just the data to and from the terminal designated radio. So, if you text your buddy in the field, the system monitors that (if the base radio can hear it) and logs the info. It time stamps all entries and provides data on failed attempts, emergency key presses and everything else you would expect it to. The TMS IS networkable, so you could in theory, enable an entire office to text any radio or vice versa provided your routing is done correctly.

A user who wishes to remain untracked could render the GPS inoperable simply by changing or removing the antenna on the radio. The GPS/UHF radio antenna is required for the positioning to work on the portable. Same with the mobile, although in that case it is a separate antenna.